Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts

[Joe Shearer]

A few points. Why is there such an urgent need to prove/disprove that the Erieyes are safe or destroyed? Aside from speculations, there is nothing for or against in this argument that is concrete.

Secondly, contrary to the common public perception in Pakistan, NO, everything does not need to be disclosed to the public. The public does NOT have the right to know all of the details pertaining to national security. The media must not be allowed in sensitive locations because not only is it irresponsible, it also lacks the restraint needed in reporting matters of national security.

Lastly, why should the PAF disclose whether an Erieye has been lost or not? Why should the PAF offer this information to all and sundry? The ones who need to know, i.e. the hierarchy within the PAF, MoD and GoP will know and will have to address it.

What the PAF does need to do is to ensure that the security is as tight as possible. I am just amazed at this zeal that some members demonstrate to make all matters an open secret. This is not how things are done anywhere in the World. I know we are high on our newly found freedom of the media, but there are rules to play by here and the media needs to learn this, the public needs to respect it and understand that there are certain things that the state has responsibility over and if the government decides to hold back on this information, deeming disclosure could impact the national security, then we should accept it. These sort of things do not stay hidden for long. At an appropriate time, some validation of the supposed destruction or operational status of all three platforms will become available. Wait until then with sabr please!

I am sorry to inform you that we beat you in this regard as well as so many others. Senior members of the DRDO love the sounds of their own voices, and are never happier than when they are giving the entire world a day-by-day account of the state of top-secret weapons programmes. Nations hostile to us maintain very small intelligence groups to monitor progress, as between these scientists, our general officers and Mr. Paanwala Biriwala who is defense correspondent for our rival Bharat Rakshak, no detail remains to be discovered. If you are disturbed by the absence of one of the usual suspects, this can be worked out within five seconds by anyone who has managed to stay awake for even a short period of time after one of our much-loved politicians opens his mouth in public.

 

[Xestan]

As for the first part, yes, 2 AWACS were at the airbase, on the ground. While a third, which was at the base by evening, was in the air. This was the first time that three AWACS had been at one place. The one in the air did not come back to Kamra.

Secondly, PAF has no IL-86.

Thirdly, as I have said before numerous times, you don't have to blow an aircraft to kingdom come and burn it to ashes in a volcano to destroy it. Everyone concurs that a RPG landed near the nose, so that is enough proof in itself. A airframe damage does not need smoke and fireworks. Remember that Shaheen Air aircraft that had a hard landing at Karachi. It was initially thought that the aircraft was finished because of damage to the wing spar and other parts in the wing root, but later Boeing officials came and repair works are going on. The place where media was standing to get pictures was right beside the village, towards the central part of the runway, while the AWACS hangar is located to the east of where the media was, apprx 1 km east. The media was not allowed to go in that area (partly due to the fact that the suicide bomber blew himself up in that area). If you are not following me, see Google Earth.

And no media was invited to the base. Everything you see is by ISPR and PAF photographers.

Lastly, what I am saying is after knowledge from a PAC official. And PAC is to the north of the Runway. The AWACS and Base Mess and fuel depot and incursion point is to the south of the runway (towards the canal). Apprx distance of 1.5km.

Just wanted to clear the bold part. It was a typo, I was exhausted of work at that time. Anyways. Post edited.

Rest, I can't convince you. You can believe in your conspiracy theories.

 

[VCheng]

...
Lastly, why should the PAF disclose whether an Erieye has been lost or not? ...........

Because it speaks directly to the competence of PAF in protecting the precious assets bought by and for the people of Pakistan - in short: accountability?

 

[Donatello]

A few points. Why is there such an urgent need to prove/disprove that the Erieyes are safe or destroyed? Aside from speculations, there is nothing for or against in this argument that is concrete.

Secondly, contrary to the common public perception in Pakistan, NO, everything does not need to be disclosed to the public. The public does NOT have the right to know all of the details pertaining to national security. The media must not be allowed in sensitive locations because not only is it irresponsible, it also lacks the restraint needed in reporting matters of national security.

Lastly, why should the PAF disclose whether an Erieye has been lost or not? Why should the PAF offer this information to all and sundry? The ones who need to know, i.e. the hierarchy within the PAF, MoD and GoP will know and will have to address it.

What the PAF does need to do is to ensure that the security is as tight as possible. I am just amazed at this zeal that some members demonstrate to make all matters an open secret. This is not how things are done anywhere in the World. I know we are high on our newly found freedom of the media, but there are rules to play by here and the media needs to learn this, the public needs to respect it and understand that there are certain things that the state has responsibility over and if the government decides to hold back on this information, deeming disclosure could impact the national security, then we should accept it. These sort of things do not stay hidden for long. At an appropriate time, some validation of the supposed destruction or operational status of all three platforms will become available. Wait until then with sabr please! Why the sense of urgency and urge to disprove each other?

Blain,

Taxpayers have a right to know what happened with their money and who the eff was irresponsible enough to let it happen.

All federal employees including armed forces get paid from civilian taxes. Please keep that in mind.

 

[Jango]

An airplane destroyed is not like a nuke or a Tactical missile program that it is paramount to national security.

 

[Bratva]

An airplane destroyed is not like a nuke or a Tactical missile program that it is paramount to national security.

Hint. Some Incidents which happens in balochistan is also given the name of national security. I wonder why "Dead Bodies" are found in open if security establishment insist so much on secrecy.

 

[blain2]

Because it speaks directly to the competence of PAF in protecting the precious assets bought by and for the people of Pakistan - in short: accountability?

VC,

Accountability is fine. But accountability to select elected representatives and the government. Not to the entire nation. Please understand the distinction I am making here. Matters of national security, why the breach happened, what the damage was are things that should not necessarily be disclosed to the entire nation. The system for accountability is there, there is MOD, there is the NA/Senate etc.

Too much disclosure, specifically in the area of national security, is an anathema for those in service.

 

[karan.1970]

Again, 1 Erieye damaged in the front fuselage section (nose) and is being sent to Sweden, no other aircraft has been destroyed or damaged, not only some people are indulging in conspiracy theories and false reporting but spreading rumours whether unintentionally or on purpose. One thing is for sure, destruction of an AWACS plane could not have remain hidden from media which has gained a paparazzi momentum in the country! The reason why no picture has surfaced of a so called destroyed AWACS is because no AWACS is destroyed.

No photograph of damaged aircraft has surfaced either.. (at least I havent seen one).. Does that mean no aircraft has been damaged either ?

 

[blain2]

Blain,

Taxpayers have a right to know what happened with their money and who the eff was irresponsible enough to let it happen.

All federal employees including armed forces get paid from civilian taxes. Please keep that in mind.

The taxpayers elect people to represent them and then some of these people are assigned the task of focusing on matters of defence and security and providing the "people's" feedback to the relevant institutions. These are the people who serve in the senate's Standing Committee on Defence and Defence Production.

Please don't be so gullible and misguided to believe that any taxpayer should have every and all details pertaining to matters of the country's national security and defence in front of them as an open book.

 

[VCheng]

VC,

Accountability is fine. But accountability to select elected representatives and the government. Not to the entire nation. Please understand the distinction I am making here. Matters of national security, why the breach happened, what the damage was are things that should not necessarily be disclosed to the entire nation. The system for accountability is there, there is MOD, there is the NA/Senate etc.

Too much disclosure, specifically in the area of national security, is an anathema for those in service.

I agree with you 100% here. As long as accountability is there, the appropriate process can be followed through the chain you mention: PAF to the government and the government to the people. Works for me!

 

[Windjammer]

No photograph of damaged aircraft has surfaced either.. (at least I havent seen one).. Does that mean no aircraft has been damaged either ?

Elsewhere you have boldly claimed that "one AWACS has been totalled",... yet here you are in a query mode. !!!

What say....any port in a storm.

 

[blain2]

An airplane destroyed is not like a nuke or a Tactical missile program that it is paramount to national security.

An aircraft used for surveillance and that too of a very specialized nature is considered paramount to the national security. As some suggested 2 destroyed and one damaged, if this were true, would mean that Pakistan's ability to receive early warning is seriously eroded. If that is not a matter of paramount national security, then what is? Why should the PAF disclose the exact status of its AEW fleet to anyone but the concerned quarters? In such matters, the more discretion, the better.
Why should the PAF divulge details of the attacks? Just so it can open itself up to more probes and attacks?

The problem for most here is that they are used to information overexposure. If its not coming, then the critique takes on the transparency flavor. In some matters, you won't get your way and I hope this remains firmly the case with national security.

 

[Windjammer]

Guys, i had the privilege to speak to Group Captain Tariq Mahmood a day or so after the incident, his disclosure wasn't no difference then the subsequent official word..... basically one aircraft suffered negligible damage.
Even the eyewitnesses from the adjacent village said, there was no smoke or fire rising out of the compound.

 

[Jango]

Why should the PAF disclose the exact status of its AEW fleet to anyone but the concerned quarters? In such matters, the more discretion, the better.

No, it should not disclose it in a press conference. Neither am I advocating it. There are matters that should be best kept secret.

But I have an opinion about the damage, you people have yours, live with it (and counter logically) rather than ridiculing a person. (not directed at you)

 

[VCheng]

The taxpayers elect people to represent them and then some of these people are assigned the task of focusing on matters of defence and security and providing the "people's" feedback to the relevant institutions. These are the people who serve in the senate's Standing Committee on Defence and Defence Production.

Please don't be so gullible and misguided to believe that any taxpayer should have every and all details pertaining to matters of the country's national security and defence in front of them as an open book.

At least consideration should be given to an appropriately redacted version of the final report being made public, so as to lay to rest speculation that can prove damaging if left unanswered.