Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts

[amardeep mishra]

And you will not be aware of it, because they arent standalone systems..
The ZDk and Erieye are two AEW packages purchased as it is from their manufactures.
There are other ground based systems that are deployed without any pomp and show.. (apart from the small tea party held at the handover)..
There are three institutes in Pakistan that have done their research on T/R modules.. two government and one semi-private.
One of them has a complete phased array system as part of a large C4I upgrade about to go hot.



Yup, No facility exists in Pakistan to undertake the sort of substrate printing and manufacturing required for some products.

sir,given the history of amount of research work done in pakistan,i really dont think thats possible,

And you will not be aware of it, because they arent standalone systems..
The ZDk and Erieye are two AEW packages purchased as it is from their manufactures.
There are other ground based systems that are deployed without any pomp and show.. (apart from the small tea party held at the handover)..
There are three institutes in Pakistan that have done their research on T/R modules.. two government and one semi-private.
One of them has a complete phased array system as part of a large C4I upgrade about to go hot.



Yup, No facility exists in Pakistan to undertake the sort of substrate printing and manufacturing required for some products.

sir,do you know how much research is involved in developing a t/r module?
let alone t/r module,have you gone through the PSM unit of a PESA?
IF what you are stating is correct,then why dont they have a "patent"?

 

[SQ8]

sir as far as my knowledge of research and development goes,
1)the research lab produces a "prototype" model of the antennae element,which includes designing the t/r modules in case of AESA and PSM in case of PESA...
2)the prototype is then sent to manufacturing units/manufacturing factories where it is mass produced,
during this stage the production factory makes final changes in the hadware,and produces the final products,
so drawing on similar lines,i wonder which lab is respnisible for the production of PSM/t/r modules for the antennae in pakistan
and if pakistan does have "designed" the t/r modules as you claim,then they would have patented it as well?
i seriously dont think pak has any "indigeous" AESA program...
because for that,one would need,
1)laboratories doing research on radar systems,including t/r modules,LNA,IFA,VA,PA,
2) the manufacturing facilities which mass produce the prototypes,
now the manufacturing units doesnt produce everything in-house,for example-they procure the t/r modules or the PSM from various other companies(either pvt or goverment) after floating tenders
and if i AM NOT mistaken then pak has NOT developed any indigenous phased array GBRs,
either american/EU or chinese

Not correct,
The prototypes are designed in house then the design is sent to an external company to produce the prototypes...it is a lengthy process but it does not mean the design is not Pakistani. Think of it like the Tata nano being built outside of India by honda in japan..it still does not make the Nano "Not Indian".
think of it this way..
There is a complete microwave testing lab and range set up near the outskirts of a major city in Pakistan..and is able to produce replacement T/R modules for the AN/TPS-77.(reverse engineered spares).
Along with 3d printers and circuit board facilities from creating the sandwich to placing components onto the system.
However..there are still certain hardware designed in-house which cannot be made..since machines to make denser wafers do not exist in Pakistan and the T/R module which is to be used in the new systems has components that cannot be manufactured in country.

]sir,given the history of amount of research work done in pakistan,i really dont think thats possible,
[/B]


sir,do you know how much research is involved in developing a t/r module?
let alone t/r module,have you gone through the PSM unit of a PESA?
IF what you are stating is correct,then why dont they have a "patent"?

How do you know of the exact history? it seems a hobsons argument from your PoV has you seem to state that which does not exist on the open market hence does not exist.

Lockheed's design for the unique spike intakes for the A-12 spyplane was not patented till 10 years after the aircraft flew.
There are national interests that are kept supreme above everything, Pakistan has no wish to export many of these designs and hence has no need to declare their existence till needed.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Not correct,
The prototypes are designed in house then the design is sent to an external company to produce the prototypes...it is a lengthy process but it does not mean the design is not Pakistani. Think of it like the Tata nano being built outside of India by honda in japan..it still does not make the Nano "Not Indian".
think of it this way..
There is a complete microwave testing lab and range set up near the outskirts of a major city in Pakistan..and is able to produce replacement T/R modules for the APG-77.(reverse engineered spares).
Along with 3d printers and circuit board facilities from creating the sandwich to placing components onto the system.
However..there are still certain hardware designed in-house which cannot be made..since machines to make denser wafers do not exist in Pakistan and the T/R module which is to be used in the new systems has components that cannot be manufactured in country.



How do you know of the exact history? it seems a hobsons argument from your PoV has you seem to state that which does not exist on the open market hence does not exist.

Lockheed's design for the unique spike intakes for the A-12 spyplane was not patented till 10 years after the aircraft flew.
There are national interests that are kept supreme above everything, Pakistan has no wish to export many of these designs and hence has no need to declare their existence till needed.

so you mean to say that,pakistan has designed the modules(with no prior experience) and sent the modules to china for fabrication?
then why doesnt they reveal the names of the systems that has been designed there
sir i too work at india's premier manufacturing facility yet i find extremely hard to buy your logic

 

[Jango]

You are arguing that everything that is made should be loudly declared to the world!!!

Things are kept in secret in Pakistan a lot of times, even the aircraft project early on, then the Chinese aircraft systems, they haven't declared them early on in a press conference.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Not correct,
The prototypes are designed in house then the design is sent to an external company to produce the prototypes...it is a lengthy process but it does not mean the design is not Pakistani. Think of it like the Tata nano being built outside of India by honda in japan..it still does not make the Nano "Not Indian".
think of it this way..
There is a complete microwave testing lab and range set up near the outskirts of a major city in Pakistan..and is able to produce replacement T/R modules for the APG-77.(reverse engineered spares).
Along with 3d printers and circuit board facilities from creating the sandwich to placing components onto the system.
However..there are still certain hardware designed in-house which cannot be made..since machines to make denser wafers do not exist in Pakistan and the T/R module which is to be used in the new systems has components that cannot be manufactured in country.



How do you know of the exact history? it seems a hobsons argument from your PoV has you seem to state that which does not exist on the open market hence does not exist.

Lockheed's design for the unique spike intakes for the A-12 spyplane was not patented till 10 years after the aircraft flew.
There are national interests that are kept supreme above everything, Pakistan has no wish to export many of these designs and hence has no need to declare their existence till needed.

since when does pak started manufacturing T/R modules of a highly sophisticated american radar?

You are arguing that everything that is made should be loudly declared to the world!!!

Things are kept in secret in Pakistan a lot of times, even the aircraft project early on, then the Chinese aircraft systems, they haven't declared them early on in a press conference.

sir ,with due respect,do you even know what it takes to design t/r modules?
sir pak or for that matter any country declare what it achieves,be it nasr,IRBMs,etc etc,
so ,they would be the first one to declare about the system if they "actually" designed it
and secondly,i would love to know the name of any "indigenous" pakistani radar,be it parabolic reflector type,slotted planar array type,PESA or AESA...

 

[SQ8]

so you mean to say that,pakistan has designed the modules(with no prior experience) and sent the modules to china for fabrication?
then why doesnt they reveal the names of the systems that has been designed there
sir i too work at india's premier manufacturing facility yet i find extremely hard to buy your logic

No prior experience is not correct..
I stated before as to how the T/R module for the TPS-77 set was reverse engineered..
That came from the experience working with a Chinese Phased array radar system(although not as sophisticated as it was 2D).
Building on that experience and with assistance from chinese and european sources.. we have gradually come up with our own designs.. some of which were not successful and dropped.

This is not a sudden on off spark of brilliance.. but a long story of mistakes and abandoned projects..

As to the why the names are not revealed Ive already explained it to you before.. DO NOT apply the dynamics of India on Pakistan..This is a security state, there are secrets for secrets.. and people who guard secrets have people guarding them.
There is also NO culture of declaring achievements apart from the odd exhibition or two where you may see a brochure.
for example, the PAC website only lists systems it is prepared to sale.. there is no mention of Missile testing or maintenance.. or any work on C4I systems or otherwise.
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex

I wish I could scan the desk calender from the place where I used to work, and you would see the multitude of products designed there.. which are nowhere on any website or otherwise.
They are there on that calender and other stationary

since when does pak started manufacturing T/R modules of a highly sophisticated american radar?

My mistake.. its the TPS-77

and check this out..
this is how spare parts make it into Pakistan
http://www.mntraders.com.pk/radars.php

Does that look even close to official to you? They have a pharmacy business at the side

 

[farhan_9909]

alot of R&D is being done in pak.
bt the problem is they are kept secret

AM@you can consider oscar saying as true.
t/r modules isnt a space

we dnt have facilities for certain things bt only because of limited funds nt because of youth talent


mishra bhai oscar is alternative of you in pakistan
as you both deal with alost same field

 

[amardeep mishra]

alot of R&D is being done in pak.
bt the problem is they are kept secret

AM@you can consider oscar saying as true.
t/r modules isnt a space

we dnt have facilities for certain things bt only because of limited funds nt because of youth talent


mishra bhai oscar is alternative of you in pakistan
as you both deal with alost same field

@farhan...bhai,nice to see you around...
salaam!

No prior experience is not correct..
I stated before as to how the T/R module for the TPS-77 set was reverse engineered.. which gave a start..
Building on that experience and with assistance from chinese and european sources.. we have gradually come up with our own designs.. some of which were not successful and dropped.

This is not a sudden on off spark of brilliance.. but a long story of mistakes and abandoned projects..

As to the why the names are not revealed Ive already explained it to you before.. DO NOT apply the dynamics of India on Pakistan..This is a security state, there are secrets for secrets.. and people who guard secrets have people guarding them.
There is also NO culture of declaring achievements apart from the odd exhibition or two where you may see a brochure.
for example, the PAC website only lists systems it is prepared to sale.. there is no mention of Missile testing or maintenance.. or any work on C4I systems or otherwise.
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex

I wish I could scan the desk calender from the place where I used to work, and you would see the multitude of products designed there.. which are nowhere on any website or otherwise.
They are there on that calender and other stationary



My mistake.. its the TPS-77

do you think,US is that fool to let anyone else "reverse-engineer" their t/r modules?
and secondly,mind it,no one,actually "transfers" the tech of t/r modules!!
NOT even china will "transfer" their secret of t/r modules to pakistan
sir,even i have seen photo/ppts of various on going AESA GBRs,but cant upload 'em here...
nonethless,how come do you expect me to buy your logic,given the fact that pakistan hasnt manufactured even a TBF for a parabolic type reflector radar...
i mean,i am also aware of how "research" is done and how it is brought into production(phased array architecture)!!

TBF=transmitter beam former

 

[SQ8]

@farhan...bhai,nice to see you around...
salaam!




do you think,US is that fool to let anyone else "reverse-engineer" their t/r modules?
and secondly,mind it,no one,actually "transfers" the tech of t/r modules!!
NOT even china will "transfer" their secret of t/r modules to pakistan
sir,even i have seen photo/ppts of various on going AESA GBRs,but cant upload 'em here...
nonethless,how come do you expect me to buy your logic,given the fact that pakistan hasnt manufactured even a TBF for a parabolic type reflector radar...
i mean,i am also aware of how "research" is done and how it is brought into production(phased array architecture)!!

I dont..
I only answered your queries as you asked as best as I could by highlighting how R&D is done in Pakistan.
its up to you to believe them or not.. it does not effect my CV, or that of the many people involved in such stuff.
Nor will it make a difference when these systems come online.

 

[amardeep mishra]

I dont..
I only answered your queries as you asked as best as I could by highlighting how R&D is done in Pakistan.
its up to you to believe them or not.. it does not effect my CV, or that of the many people involved in such stuff.
Nor will it make a difference when these systems come online.

something is NOT right here!!

I dont..
I only answered your queries as you asked as best as I could by highlighting how R&D is done in Pakistan.
its up to you to believe them or not.. it does not effect my CV, or that of the many people involved in such stuff.
Nor will it make a difference when these systems come online.

research over there in pakistan is very different from research over here...

 

[Bratva]

this is how spare parts make it into Pakistan
Radar spare parts in Pakistan

Does that look even close to official to you? They have a pharmacy business at the side

They even have F-16 spare parts what the heck

 

[farhan_9909]

I dont..
I only answered your queries as you asked as best as I could by highlighting how R&D is done in Pakistan.
its up to you to believe them or not.. it does not effect my CV, or that of the many people involved in such stuff.
Nor will it make a difference when these systems come online.

i m happy to knw that into such deep extent R&D is done in pak

in future with more funds
we might also install the facilities of even doing everything at home


i hope this time in def expo ideas 2012
gids/nescom and other such firm would reveal locally developed radar

 

[amardeep mishra]

i m happy to knw that into such deep extent R&D is done in pak

in future with more funds
we might also install the facilities of even doing everything at home


i hope this time in def expo ideas 2012
gids/nescom and other such firm would reveal locally developed radar

i am axiously waiting to see some really serious stuff across the border...
but given the "state of affairs" of r&d and "ground realities" i am more inclined to think otherwise

 

[SQ8]

something is NOT right here!!



research over there in pakistan is very different from research over here...

If you concentrate on that, you will see why I am emphasizing on that.
research in Pakistan is based more on getting the solution, instead of creating a learning base along the way.
And there is no more research done beyond what is required..
and I myself left this field solely due to the attitude I saw..
which is "dont make anything that does not counter what India has".
There is no want to go the extra mile.. no want to try and improve on the production model..
nothing.
Just do as the requirements ask..and forget the rest.

 

[amardeep mishra]

If you concentrate on that, you will see why I am emphasizing on that.
research in Pakistan is based more on getting the solution, instead of creating a learning base along the way.
And there is no more research done beyond what is required..
and I myself left this field solely due to the attitude I saw..
which is "dont make anything that does not counter what India has".
There is no want to go the extra mile.. no want to try and improve on the production model..
nothing.
Just do as the requirements ask..and forget the rest.

well thats "explains" why pakistan lacks "PATENT"!!
and over there countering india means gathering stuff either by hook or crook...
yet pakistan lacks indigenous r&d to produce stuff on lines of rajendra PESA,WLR,FLR,ADITYA-AESA,LRTR(sword fish)

If you concentrate on that, you will see why I am emphasizing on that.
research in Pakistan is based more on getting the solution, instead of creating a learning base along the way.
And there is no more research done beyond what is required..
and I myself left this field solely due to the attitude I saw..
which is "dont make anything that does not counter what India has".
There is no want to go the extra mile.. no want to try and improve on the production model..
nothing.
Just do as the requirements ask..and forget the rest.

BTW,by any chance have you ever done any project with MSP-430?