Pakistan's acquisition of the U-214

[Arsalan]

well nutuk does it means that Pakistan will be getting ToT even if turkey manage to get it!

this is very important question as germany might not be that willing for complete ToT to pakistan as it will be to turkey.
so kindly clarify that do you mean that turkish govt if convinced the germans for ToT then it will be available for both pakistan and turkey??

 

[Nutuk]

Yes more or less, even when it is indirectly. Germany has not signed cooperation treaty with Turkey because she wants to share eagerly her technology. No any country is eager to give away knowhow but in the competing defence market they are forced to, otherwise another one will sell the system.

Germany won't give away easily PEM fuell cell tech for instance, but that doesn't matter since a Turkish company Vestel is already producing these fuell cells. We already have that knowhow, we also have knowhow to build entire battle management systems so in a way Germany is forced to give certain high tech cos the customer is already having or is on the verge of acquiring the technology.

Since Turkey has defence cooperation with Pakistan and agreements that Turkey will assist Pakistan on naval tech, it will include also these technologies.

The German government was the bottleneck in the negotiations. The German government had not given the permission to all the agreements reached with Thyssen Krupp HDW and related tech transfers. Therefor a series of agreements are now signed with Germany to make it possible, but these steps are slowing down the proces a bit.

 

[sancho]

Yes more or less, even when it is indirectly.

I think that is the crucial part, cause Germany won't allow ToT directly to Pakistan. The U214 deal with Pakistan a difficult theme in the German public, that's the reason why it takes so long to fix it. Turkey could be a future member of EU that makes it a total different case to provide ToT the you then to Pakistan.
You said that the deal is combined with the Turkish deal, can you tell me how, or provide a link?

 

[Arsalan]

Yes more or less, even when it is indirectly. Germany has not signed cooperation treaty with Turkey because she wants to share eagerly her technology. No any country is eager to give away knowhow but in the competing defence market they are forced to, otherwise another one will sell the system.

Germany won't give away easily PEM fuell cell tech for instance, but that doesn't matter since a Turkish company Vestel is already producing these fuell cells. We already have that knowhow, we also have knowhow to build entire battle management systems so in a way Germany is forced to give certain high tech cos the customer is already having or is on the verge of acquiring the technology.

Since Turkey has defence cooperation with Pakistan and agreements that Turkey will assist Pakistan on naval tech, it will include also these technologies.

The German government was the bottleneck in the negotiations. The German government had not given the permission to all the agreements reached with Thyssen Krupp HDW and related tech transfers. Therefor a series of agreements are now signed with Germany to make it possible, but these steps are slowing down the proces a bit.

thanks brother, this is a very good news! pakistan must not comprpmise on ToT issue! we might wan to build one or more i future, aslo plakistam would have got ToT if they would have opted for a french sub so now we will definately want it with the U214! i hope germany wont be very much of a hurdel in this prospect and speciallly keeping in view that turkey is involved, it seem to be a Go for ToT soon!

regards!

 

[ajpirzada]

Germany delays submarines' sale to Pakistan
BERLIN (May 17 2009): Germany is to sell main battle tanks to Qatar, ending a long ban on selling heavy weapons to Arabian peninsula nations, the news magazine Der Spiegel said on Saturday. But a sale of stealth submarines to Pakistan was on hold till, after Germany's general election in September, the magazine reported without citing sources.

Under German law, the manufacturers must obtain clearances from Chancellor Angela Merkel's national security council for the sales. The council, an inner cabinet of ministers with security portfolios, issues clearances before contracts are signed. Der Spiegel said that Germany had in the past declined to sell its 'Leopard 2' tanks to Saudi Arabia, so as not to upset Israel.

It said the sale of 36 tanks to tiny Qatar was quietly approved last year with the proviso that Israel must be informed, but the Jewish state apparently did not object. Spiegel said this was presumably because Qatar had little need to use them, since it was not under threat from its land neighbours, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. Its 9,000-man army was acquiring the tanks for prestige reasons. Qatar is home to a large US base.

The sale of three sophisticated fuel-cell-powered Type 214 submarines to Pakistan had been approved, and an export credit of 1 billion euros (1.3 billion dollars) had been offered, but no contract has been signed yet, Spiegel said.

It said the sale negotiations were dragging out. With Pakistan, destabilised by Taliban advances, the council had decided to adjourn further deliberation on the potentially controversial sale till after September. The submarines are extremely quiet and can lurk underwater for weeks, giving them the same capability as nuclear-powered submarines.
Business Recorder [Pakistan's First Financial Daily]

 

[IceCold]

The more we delay the procurement of the subs, the more likely it is to go down the toilet drain considering how paranoid the west is about the whole taliban taking over Pakistan thing.
It will be a shame if now the Germans block the sales of the subs to Pakistan, all the progress made so far will be lost and we will be back to square one.

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

It said the sale of 36 tanks to tiny Qatar was quietly approved last year with the proviso that Israel must be informed, but the Jewish state apparently did not object.

This is a joke, right??

 

[ajpirzada]

This is a joke, right??

ill have to ask the editor

 

[araz]

The more we delay the procurement of the subs, the more likely it is to go down the toilet drain considering how paranoid the west is about the whole taliban taking over Pakistan thing.
It will be a shame if now the Germans block the sales of the subs to Pakistan, all the progress made so far will be lost and we will be back to square one.

IceCold
I agree fully with you but for one proviso. If they want to block the sale , they will do so at any time irrespective of the signing of the contract or not. However, i would like to think that Natuk is right and we will do a joint deal, with transfer of technology which will serve us better in the long run.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[jawadqamar]

Key statements in this news item are
But a sale of stealth submarines to Pakistan was on hold till after Germany's general election in September, the magazine reported, without citing sources.


The sale of three sophisticated fuel-cell-powered Type 214 submarines to Pakistan had been approved, and an export credit of 1 billion euros (1.3 billion dollars) had been offered, but no contract had been signed yet, Spiegel said. The submarines are extremely quiet and can lurk under water for weeks, giving them the same capability as nuclear-powered submarines.


No sources means this is just another news without any hard facts

 

[Super Falcon]

ones it is approved what is fuss know about it if this is true that german will block the sale i think PN should go for chinese type 94 submarine which is copy of russian cruise missile submarine

 

[Arsalan]

no hardcore news on the deal being cancled or delayed! yes it is delayed but as Nutuk said it is the ToT part!

there is nothing to worry about fellows and Gof Forbade even if the deal is cancled we have many other options but why disuss them as it is not the case!!

regards!

 

[IceCold]

IceCold
I agree fully with you but for one proviso. If they want to block the sale , they will do so at any time irrespective of the signing of the contract or not. However, i would like to think that Natuk is right and we will do a joint deal, with transfer of technology which will serve us better in the long run.
WaSalam
Araz

Perhaps sir however in a time when the world is facing an economic melt down and there is a huge recession world wide, imo no country in its right state of mind can afford to loose million of dollars and that too just to please Israel or India.

 

[mughaljee]

I feel Panic,
this way or that way,
why Germans are taking so time.

 

[fatman17]

Report: Germany sells tanks to Qatar, delays on subs to Pakistan

Europe News

May 16, 2009


Berlin - Germany is to sell main battle tanks to Qatar, ending a long ban on selling the heavy weapons to Arabian peninsula nations, the news magazine Der Spiegel said Saturday.

But a sale of stealth submarines to Pakistan was on hold till after Germany's general election in September, the magazine reported, without citing sources.

Under German law, the manufacturers must obtain clearances from Chancellor Angela's Merkel's national security council for the sales. The council, an inner cabinet of ministers with security portfolios, issues clearances before contracts are signed.

Der Spiegel said Germany had in the past declined to sell its Leopard 2 tanks to Saudi Arabia so as not to upset Israel.

It said the sale of 36 tanks to tiny Qatar was quietly approved last year with the proviso that Israel must be informed, but the Jewish state apparently did not object.

Spiegel said this was presumably because Qatar had little need to use them, since it was not under threat from its land neighbours, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. Its 9,000-man army was acquiring the tanks for prestige reasons. Qatar is home to a large US base.

The sale of three sophisticated fuel-cell-powered Type 214 submarines to Pakistan had been approved, and an export credit of 1 billion euros (1.3 billion dollars) had been offered, but no contract had been signed yet, Spiegel said.

It said the sale negotiations were dragging out. With Pakistan destabilized by Taliban advances, the council had decided to adjourn further deliberation on the potentially controversial sale till after September.

The submarines are extremely quiet and can lurk under water for weeks, giving them the same capability as nuclear-powered submarines.