Pakistanis be ready, time of action is here and now.

[Armchair]

They are planning a genocide of Muslims in India. We may not be able to save the rest of the Muslims in India, but we must save Kashmir.

This is the time now for major restructuring of the armed forces along lines similar to Switzerland / Israel, with the professional army being supplemented with conscripted divisions. We need 10 conscript divisions

My dear brother...

Politics is a very dirty business.
Now seal team 6 has all but been killed as well. Wonder why....could it be there was OBL and someone really didnt want the truth to come out.
Also a helicopter crashes and the americans are allowed out without a firefight....this is abbotabad. A garrison town and home to the elite military academy

Abbottabad is just a garrison town. If you mean Army Burn Hall, its just a school and a college. I happen to have studied there, just another one of those over-hyped "elite" military schools that produce old boy clubs. It doesn't mean students are going to come out with G-3s and start shooting Americans. Mostly, we never knew much about anything happening outside our school anyways.

 

[MastanKhan]

Dont want to derail....but sounds like conspiracy theory! PAF kept aircrafts number low!!!

Hi,

From its past experiences---the Paf has known---if it has the right number of aircraft---the army would strike india---.

So---if you look over the decades---there has been a systematic approach of not buying the much needed weapons when they became available on a fastrak---.

Be it the late 80's---Mirage F1 or Mirage 2K or the early / mid 90's for the Mirage 2K---you see the same pattern---. Aircraft are available---funds are available---but for one silly reason or the other---no one makes the move to consolidate the deal---.

And one chance of a deal happens---someone claims his honesty to scrap the deal---.

You should never have too honest a people in the deal making process-.

Even ACM Nur Khan had to face this dillema---he chose other options but did not stop or delay the deal---.

Why you never delay the deal---because the enemy is also trying its best during that time to sabotage your deal---.

The biggest of all the deceits happened after 9/11---when aircraft became available---funds were available---and then came the 4 years period of dilling and dallying and the funds were donated to earthquake relief where they were looted and plundered---.

If you study it deeply---it becomes clear as the sun on a clear day that it was an intentional sabotage on pakistan's integrity by the higher ups in the Paf not to buy the aircraft in a timely manner---because they knew---if they could waste enough time in the search process---then incidences will happen which to stop the deal to be made---and that is what they had learnt from the previous experiences of making no deals---.

Not buying the aircraft meant no war---save their skins---but keep their jobs alive and let the money roll in---.

If our air force was capable during Kargil---the map of Kashmir would not be the same---.

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

From its past experiences---the Paf has known---if it has the right number of aircraft---the army would strike india---.

So---if you look over the decades---there has been a systematic approach of not buying the much needed weapons when they became available on a fastrak---.

Be it the late 80's---Mirage F1 or Mirage 2K or the early / mid 90's for the Mirage 2K---you see the same pattern---. Aircraft are available---funds are available---but for one silly reason or the other---no one makes the move to consolidate the deal---.

And one chance of a deal happens---someone claims his honesty to scrap the deal---.

You should never have too honest a people in the deal making process-.

Even ACM Nur Khan had to face this dillema---he chose other options but did not stop or delay the deal---.

Why you never delay the deal---because the enemy is also trying its best during that time to sabotage your deal---.

The biggest of all the deceits happened after 9/11---when aircraft became available---funds were available---and then came the 4 years period of dilling and dallying and the funds were donated to earthquake relief where they were looted and plundered---.

If you study it deeply---it becomes clear as the sun on a clear day that it was an intentional sabotage on pakistan's integrity by the higher ups in the Paf not to buy the aircraft in a timely manner---because they knew---if they could waste enough time in the search process---then incidences will happen which to stop the deal to be made---and that is what they had learnt from the previous experiences of making no deals---.

Not buying the aircraft meant no war---save their skins---but keep their jobs alive and let the money roll in---.

If our air force was capable during Kargil---the map of Kashmir would not be the same---.

Everyone I hope pays serious attention to what MK wrote. This is a very big problem. The US and UK patronizes certain officers in the PAF particularly, and they, at critical moments, serve not the interests of Pakistan but others. MK has been saying this for a long time but we have ignored this.

We must ask, how does a country of religiously conservative Muslims consistently produce a godless and secular military elite that drinks whiskey and barters our nation?

 

[MastanKhan]

Everyone I hope pays serious attention to what MK wrote. This is a very big problem. The US and UK patronizes certain officers in the PAF particularly, and they, at critical moments, serve not the interests of Pakistan but others. MK has been saying this for a long time but we have ignored this.

We must ask, how does a country of religiously conservative Muslims consistently produce a godless and secular military elite that drinks whiskey and barters our nation?

Hi,

It has become very easy to barter the defenses of the nation---because there are no consequences---.

There were no consequences for air base commanders and chief security officer of the bases where the Awacs were destroyed---.

I don't drink---I care less if anyone else drinks---but to sell the interests of the nation---that must be a death sentence---.

 

[Crusher]

We had the element of revenge of the Antlantique given to us by Allah as a gift---and our Generals pulled their pants down and bent over---.

To please some "imaginary international community" that is always hanging over their heads, as if they get their salary from "international community" instead of Pakistani tax payers money.

 

[SIPRA]

To please some "imaginary international community" that is always hanging over their heads, as if they get their salary from "international community" instead of Pakistani tax payers money.

Please. This is not the time for such comments. Must realize the gravity of situation.

 

[Humble Analyst]

Hi,

It has become very easy to barter the defenses of the nation---because there are no consequences---.

There were no consequences for air base commanders and chief security officer of the bases where the Awacs were destroyed---.

I don't drink---I care less if anyone else drinks---but to sell the interests of the nation---that must be a death sentence---.

I think there were consequences, do not know if were enough or not. However that was a blunder. One officer had a personal NVAID and that helped to limit the damage otherwise the consequences would have been worse. Not to say what happened was small.

 

[imadul]

Hi,

From its past experiences---the Paf has known---if it has the right number of aircraft---the army would strike india---.

So---if you look over the decades---there has been a systematic approach of not buying the much needed weapons when they became available on a fastrak---.

Be it the late 80's---Mirage F1 or Mirage 2K or the early / mid 90's for the Mirage 2K---you see the same pattern---. Aircraft are available---funds are available---but for one silly reason or the other---no one makes the move to consolidate the deal---.

And one chance of a deal happens---someone claims his honesty to scrap the deal---.

You should never have too honest a people in the deal making process-.

Even ACM Nur Khan had to face this dillema---he chose other options but did not stop or delay the deal---.

Why you never delay the deal---because the enemy is also trying its best during that time to sabotage your deal---.

The biggest of all the deceits happened after 9/11---when aircraft became available---funds were available---and then came the 4 years period of dilling and dallying and the funds were donated to earthquake relief where they were looted and plundered---.

If you study it deeply---it becomes clear as the sun on a clear day that it was an intentional sabotage on pakistan's integrity by the higher ups in the Paf not to buy the aircraft in a timely manner---because they knew---if they could waste enough time in the search process---then incidences will happen which to stop the deal to be made---and that is what they had learnt from the previous experiences of making no deals---.

Not buying the aircraft meant no war---save their skins---but keep their jobs alive and let the money roll in---.

If our air force was capable during Kargil---the map of Kashmir would not be the same---.

From your missive it looks PAF works in isolation and there is no central chain of command - In Pakistan, Army calls the shot so it cannot be accepted that PAF sabotaged aircraft deals.
It would have been helpful if you had given solid examples of various deals miscarriaged by PAF!!!
Two examples are relevant:
1. Pak was to get 60 F-16s in 90's but they were embargoed and 28 paid for examples were also stopped, later US shipped soyabean or wheat instead.
2. In 2000's Pakistan tried to buy another front line fighter SAAB Gripen JAS 39 but stolkhom plainly refused in 2004 when MUSHARRAF visited stolkhom.
3. In between there were rumors/news of Ex UAE mirage 2K5, but nothing materialize. I see indian influence there with UAE and other gulf countries.

Corruption has been issue, but yes armaments are still procured.

On side note, my friend was a super intelligent electronics engineer and presented plan to PAF to convert C-130 into AE&E assets in early 90's but he backed away when brass asked about their commission. Anwar Shamim was ACM during that time. That friend has done defense projects earlier.

 

[MastanKhan]

From your missive it looks PAF works in isolation and there is no central chain of command - In Pakistan, Army calls the shot so it cannot be accepted that PAF sabotaged aircraft deals.
It would have been helpful if you had given solid examples of various deals miscarriaged by PAF!!!
Two examples are relevant:
1. Pak was to get 60 F-16s in 90's but they were embargoed and 28 paid for examples were also stopped, later US shipped soyabean or wheat instead.
2. In 2000's Pakistan tried to buy another front line fighter SAAB Gripen JAS 39 but stolkhom plainly refused in 2004 when MUSHARRAF visited stolkhom.
3. In between there were rumors/news of Ex UAE mirage 2K5, but nothing materialize. I see indian influence there with UAE and other gulf countries.

Corruption has been issue, but yes armaments are still procured.

On side note, my friend was a super intelligent electronics engineer and presented plan to PAF to convert C-130 into AE&E assets in early 90's but he backed away when brass asked about their commission. Anwar Shamim was ACM during that time. That friend has done defense projects earlier.

Hi,

Just like in another thread---a young man is telling me the importance and usage of strike aircraft and the utility that I discussed over 12-15 years ago and for him it is something new---.

Similarly here---F16 should never been purchase by the Paf for pakistan---. The american sanction history had a long 'tail'---. The preferred aircraft was the M2K and the support aircraft were the Mirage F1---if needed.

Paf went for the F16 knowing very well that in due time it would be sanctioned---.

It is in a same manner that you pick a person to marry knowing they have bad habits and yet you think you will fix them---till the day you realize that you fckd up---.

French were dependant on Paf to buy the first batch of the M2k's to push the sale---.

If Paf had taken that route---the indians would never had had a capable aircraft---.

Then the 90's fiasco of too honest an air force buyer---.

Whose job it was to make the deal to get the F16's after 9/11---it was the Paf's job to get them right away---.

They started jumping around from one aircraft to another---from grippen to m2k to Rafale---.

And there was no reason to go that way---. F16 should have been the priority and shuld have been taken right away---.

All of pakistan's wel wishers were telling pakistans---in the late 80's---don't go for the F16's---go for M2k's you will get sanctioned---but no---they paid for upfront and kept on paying---.

Why did they not sue the US govt in the court of law---. Because their kids were getting visas and they were getting jobs with lockmart gen dyn

 

[Humble Analyst]

From your missive it looks PAF works in isolation and there is no central chain of command - In Pakistan, Army calls the shot so it cannot be accepted that PAF sabotaged aircraft deals.
It would have been helpful if you had given solid examples of various deals miscarriaged by PAF!!!
Two examples are relevant:
1. Pak was to get 60 F-16s in 90's but they were embargoed and 28 paid for examples were also stopped, later US shipped soyabean or wheat instead.
2. In 2000's Pakistan tried to buy another front line fighter SAAB Gripen JAS 39 but stolkhom plainly refused in 2004 when MUSHARRAF visited stolkhom.
3. In between there were rumors/news of Ex UAE mirage 2K5, but nothing materialize. I see indian influence there with UAE and other gulf countries.

Corruption has been issue, but yes armaments are still procured.

On side note, my friend was a super intelligent electronics engineer and presented plan to PAF to convert C-130 into AE&E assets in early 90's but he backed away when brass asked about their commission. Anwar Shamim was ACM during that time. That friend has done defense projects earlier.

Anwar shamim was not the Chief in 90s. You must be mixing up time.

 

[guest9999]

Everyone I hope pays serious attention to what MK wrote. This is a very big problem. The US and UK patronizes certain officers in the PAF particularly, and they, at critical moments, serve not the interests of Pakistan but others. MK has been saying this for a long time but we have ignored this.

We must ask, how does a country of religiously conservative Muslims consistently produce a godless and secular military elite that drinks whiskey and barters our nation?

Hi,

It has become very easy to barter the defenses of the nation---because there are no consequences---.

There were no consequences for air base commanders and chief security officer of the bases where the Awacs were destroyed---.

I don't drink---I care less if anyone else drinks---but to sell the interests of the nation---that must be a death sentence---.

To please some "imaginary international community" that is always hanging over their heads, as if they get their salary from "international community" instead of Pakistani tax payers money.

Yup... I used to be a full-blown Pak Mil supporter, until OBL Raid to open my eyes. There is no way that could have happened without collusion - whether you really believe that OBL was there or dead from before and the raid was just a hoax.

If you look back carefully, why is it that someone who is religious and conservative, NEVER makes it to the top?

Say what you want, but one thing I liked about Modi is that he sacked the IAF Western Command, after their failure on Feb. 27th. Can Pakistan do the same? Or will it continue to reward incompetence?

 

[MastanKhan]

Yup... I used to be a full-blown Pak Mil supporter, until OBL Raid to open my eyes. There is no way that could have happened without collusion - whether you really believe that OBL was there or dead from before and the raid was just a hoax.

If you look back carefully, why is it that someone who is religious and conservative, NEVER makes it to the top?

Say what you want, but one thing I liked about Modi is that he sacked the IAF Western Command, after their failure on Feb. 27th. Can Pakistan do the same? Or will it continue to reward incompetence?

Hi,

When the first awacs were attacked successfully at Mehran---the Base commander---base security in charge and the western Zone command ( karachi / sindh area command ) should have been charged---executed by the FIRING SQUAD---their properties confiscated---the Air Chief and those in chain of command fired in disgrace.

Religious and conservatives are equally worthless in the military or other fields---. We needs nationalists---who have the zeal for the nation---.

Look what we do with the selection of our army navy air chiefs---we pick up the most incompetent of those amongst the candidates to serve our leadership role of the military---.

What would happen if we truly chose the most competent general air chief marshal or the admiral for the job---? Just think about it---.

 

[guest9999]

Hi,

When the first awacs were attacked successfully at Mehran---the Base commander---base security in charge and the western Zone command ( karachi / sindh area command ) should have been charged---executed by the FIRING SQUAD---their properties confiscated---the Air Chief and those in chain of command fired in disgrace.

Religious and conservatives are equally worthless in the military or other fields---. We needs nationalists---who have the zeal for the nation---.

Look what we do with the selection of our army navy air chiefs---we pick up the most incompetent of those amongst the candidates to serve our leadership role of the military---.

What would happen if we truly chose the most competent general air chief marshal or the admiral for the job---? Just think about it---.

One thing I can tell you for certain, is that they would be 100% more aggressive than the current lot you had so far in the last 70 years, plus, they would NEVER sell out national interests in exchange for the foreign passports and bank accounts. Once a person is at least trustworthy, then we can start getting into competency.

 

[Mrc]

This guy used to call jf 17 biggest treason to Pakistan also. ..

Till suddenly it was realised that its not

 

[Philip the Arab]

Don't worry, in a war with India there will be many Muslims coming to help you from around the globe. Afghanistan-Soviet war will look like a walk in the park compared to an Indo-Pak war.