Pakistani Navy going through a serious buildup

[Akh1112]

There is a naval variant of HQ-16B according to Chinese news: https://kknews.cc/military/k98a42v.amp

Thanks for the rest, makes more sense now, I’ll see if I can dig up something related to Mid course guidance.
We will have to wait a bit more to see what exactly Babur class is getting, I assume we don’t know about VDS or TDA on it yet.

Im 100% sure there is not a HQ-16B For naval vessels yet, I had double checked with others a while back.

aside from that, try to find some photos of the back of the Babur class, you’ll find out from that. BTW, there’s no guarantee that our 054a’s will have tas as they were sold below normal cost, so they will have skimped somewhere or something. Not all 054a’s got TA’s anyway, it was only after a certain hull

 

[Dreamer.]

Also 054A can be equipped with 32 VLS cells. MILGEM has half that.

Less than half actually.....

Milgem/Babur class will have only 12 VLS cells. This was apparent in the pictures shown in the last ceremony (in karachi i think) and also in the video of the latest launch ceremony with presidents of Pakistan and Turkey.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

1- there’s no naval HQ-16B.
2- Irrespective of when the missile needs guidance, the illuminators have a max range of 30km, thus limiting the missiles reach.
3- it has 4 illuminators because each illuminator can only light up a 70 degree arc.
4- CAMM is a far better point defence solution, especially with its superior kinematics and also it’s more modern electronics.
5- yes, the only advantage is the 32 cell setup, however, the launchers on the Babur class aren’t confirmed, who knows what they will be in the end, however what we know is camm-er is capable of being quadpacked.
6- the dumping thing was an example, however, as I have said before, if a 054a was to face a swarm of 8 ashms(a typical load out among most ships), there’s a very good chance it won’t be able to defend itself without some luck, this would mean each missile would need to intercept every target as you cannot provide guidance to more than 8 at once.
7- wrt mid course guidance, there is nothing to suggest that.
8- yes, they can be equipped with a vds or a ta.

IMO the VLS isn't final until they literally add it to the ship.

The PN's been changing the subsystems of the ship right from the start. I'm cautiously optimistic that the GWS is a stand-in and the PN and MBDA are still working towards the SYLVER.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Im 100% sure there is not a HQ-16B For naval vessels yet, I had double checked with others a while back.

aside from that, try to find some photos of the back of the Babur class, you’ll find out from that. BTW, there’s no guarantee that our 054a’s will have tas as they were sold below normal cost, so they will have skimped somewhere or something. Not all 054a’s got TA’s anyway, it was only after a certain hull

This is an official brochure for LY80N.
According to this Range for the illuminators is 85 KM. That makes more sense considering 30KM is shorter than the range of the basic HQ-16.

Yes it doesn’t seem to use mid-course guidance (still possible, but unlikely in A variant, likely present in later ones. Can still support ICWI+SARH mix without datalink but the limitation might be on the radar end?)
it’s intermittent illuminating, So i think the point still stands that you don’t need to constantly illuminate a target for the missile. Only before impact. I’ve seen CAMM-ER too, yes it’s a better PD system, simply because it’s much newer, kind of an unfair comparison, but I don’t see why HHQ-16 is that bad, especially if HHQ-16B/C has been navalized, with its 70KM range and other improvements it may well be able to hold its own against CAMM-ER. Yes theres not that much about its existence yet, but it only makes sense that China is at least working on it. Apart from the news article I posted earlier, this is from East pendulum, he’s been known to have insider info into Chinese tech, probably the most of anyone in the west.

If we’re gonna give some sort of extra range benefit to CAMM-ER than who knows, maybe HHQ-16A can shoot farther than stated range too. Plus there’s videos of 54As dumping all their missiles at once in exercises by the PLAN, sure that still doesn’t mean they can all be guided, but it also means they could be.

Also important is addition of ESA panels around the 32th 054A, which, if they are illuminators, might indicate that China developed a new HQ-16 variant and are planning to integrate it, which yes doesn’t really matter for us because we’re getting the older versions, but it may show they are working on the newer missiles that Pakistan can adopt in the future.

I don’t think these vessels will be missing out on TAS either, or at least I hope they don’t, they weren’t that much cheaper. Plus if PN wants “low-end” assets imo there’s better ways of going about that, these are still expensive ships. So I don’t think this makes them Low-End vessels (especially with CM302), it just may be a consequence of the newer Chinese system not being ready yet.

On another note, LY-80 uses exhaust Vanes TVC.

 

[iLION12345_1]

IMO the VLS isn't final until they literally add it to the ship.

The PN's been changing the subsystems of the ship right from the start. I'm cautiously optimistic that the GWS is a stand-in and the PN and MBDA are still working towards the SYLVER.

Exactly, PN could very well wait for HHQ-16B/C to complete naval integration, it’s kind of a given that China will work on that, they can’t just keep using older Missiles on their ships. If PN knows that new system is going to be a bit late, they might use the older ones for now and upgrade later, maybe they’ll even upgrade the F22Ps, they’ll need an MLU sometime.

Do we know how Babur and 54A compare in cost exactly?

 

[Akh1112]

View attachment 770228
This is an official brochure for LY80N.
According to this Range for the illuminators is 85 KM. That makes more sense considering 30KM is shorter than the range of the basic HQ-16.

Yes it doesn’t seem to use mid-course guidance (still possible, but unlikely in A variant, likely present in later ones. Can still support ICWI+SARH mix without datalink but the limitation might be on the radar end?)
it’s intermittent illuminating, So i think the point still stands that you don’t need to constantly illuminate a target for the missile. Only before impact. I’ve seen CAMM-ER too, yes it’s a better PD system, simply because it’s much newer, kind of an unfair comparison, but I don’t see why HHQ-16 is that bad, especially if HHQ-16B/C has been navalized, with its 70KM range and other improvements it may well be able to hold its own against CAMM-ER. Yes theres not that much about its existence yet, but it only makes sense that China is at least working on it. Apart from the news article I posted earlier, this is from East pendulum, he’s been known to have insider info into Chinese tech, probably the most of anyone in the west.View attachment 770231

If we’re gonna give some sort of extra range benefit to CAMM-ER than who knows, maybe HHQ-16A can shoot farther than stated range too. Plus there’s videos of 54As dumping all their missiles at once in exercises by the PLAN, sure that still doesn’t mean they can all be guided, but it also means they could be.

Also important is addition of ESA panels around the 32th 054A, which, if they are illuminators, might indicate that China developed a new HQ-16 variant and are planning to integrate it, which yes doesn’t really matter for us because we’re getting the older versions, but it may show they are working on the newer missiles that Pakistan can adopt in the future.

I don’t think these vessels will be missing out on TAS either, or at least I hope they don’t, they weren’t that much cheaper. Plus if PN wants “low-end” assets imo there’s better ways of going about that, these are still expensive ships. So I don’t think this makes them Low-End vessels (especially with CM302), it just may be a consequence of the newer Chinese system not being ready yet.

On another note, LY-80 uses exhaust Vanes TVC.
View attachment 770233

Your brochure is for land based HQ-16, a system with a far better sensor suite than the ship based one.

I think you’re misinterpreting what I’m saying. These vessels are on the lower end compared to other modern frigates and the Babur class, then in the future, the Jinnah class. Both of those ships should carry a far more advanced electronics and weapons suite.

once again, I’m not saying it’s bad, however I’m not saying it’s great either, it’s just meh. It’s not ideal for a high intensity conflict, the Plan knows this too and has them operate under AAW coverage of larger vessels during wartime, as they are asw frigates that can defend themselves, that’s about it. I think we’re blowing what I’m saying way out of proportion, at the end of the day my point stands and is valid, however the saving grace is that 054as were sold below cost and this we’re really cheap, so it doesn’t really matter anyway because who knows what their mission will be in the pn, they could make nice asw frigates.

I have stated part of my reasoning above, however this is honestly ratherpointless, if you want to see, just compare the 054a to modern frigates being build in 2021, you’ll get the answer. They’re the cheaper and lower end option wrt the Pak navy and its future fleet, with the Jinnah class being the highest end ship we operate for now.

Exactly, PN could very well wait for HHQ-16B/C to complete naval integration, it’s kind of a given that China will work on that, they can’t just keep using older Missiles on their ships. If PN knows that new system is going to be a bit late, they might use the older ones for now and upgrade later, maybe they’ll even upgrade the F22Ps, they’ll need an MLU sometime.

Do we know how Babur and 54A compare in cost exactly?

Babur is around 100-150m usd more. But the deal was far more extensive however, with ip rights and tot.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Your brochure is for land based HQ-16, a system with a far better sensor suite than the ship based one.

I think you’re misinterpreting what I’m saying. These vessels are on the lower end compared to other modern frigates and the Babur class, then in the future, the Jinnah class. Both of those ships should carry a far more advanced electronics and weapons suite.

once again, I’m not saying it’s bad, however I’m not saying it’s great either, it’s just meh. It’s not ideal for a high intensity conflict, the Plan knows this too and has them operate under AAW coverage of larger vessels during wartime, as they are asw frigates that can defend themselves, that’s about it. I think we’re blowing what I’m saying way out of proportion, at the end of the day my point stands and is valid, however the saving grace is that 054as were sold below cost and this we’re really cheap, so it doesn’t really matter anyway because who knows what their mission will be in the pn, they could make nice asw frigates.

I have stated part of my reasoning above, however this is honestly ratherpointless, if you want to see, just compare the 054a to modern frigates being build in 2021, you’ll get the answer. They’re the cheaper and lower end option wrt the Pak navy and its future fleet, with the Jinnah class being the highest end ship we operate for now.


Babur is around 100-150m usd more. But the deal was far more extensive however, with ip rights and tot.

I think we'll learn a lot about the ships when we see how the PN will use them.

The Babur-class (and likely Jinnah-class) has an ESM suite with DRFM ECM. I think we can safely say the AAW set up is also meant for contested and high-threat environments. We may see the Babur-class in our EEZ with higher risk air and surface threats (hence the more sophisticated equipment).

The Type 054A/Ps could potentially operate closer to the shore alongside the F-22Ps. In this case, I think the PN will lean on A2/AD assets (e.g., SWAT boats, PAF support, shore-based ASCMs, etc) to keep these boats safe from threats. Otherwise, their goal is to support ASW in more secure (from a surface and air-threat standpoint) environments. Thus, they don't need top-end ESM or AAW.

Basically, the PN wants to take the naval fight away from the littoral sphere and to edges of IOR and North Arabian Sea. However, it still needs assets to defend its green water zone, but top-end assets like the Babur-class and Jinnah-class would be too costly for that role. In fact, the point of the Babur-class and Jinnah-class is to push the biggest threats away from our littoral and green water spheres altogether. So, in that context, the Type 054A/P and F-22P should be enough.

 

[Abid123]

I think we'll learn a lot about the ships when we see how the PN will use them.

The Babur-class (and likely Jinnah-class) has an ESM suite with DRFM ECM. I think we can safely say the AAW set up is also meant for contested and high-threat environments. We may see the Babur-class in our EEZ with higher risk air and surface threats (hence the more sophisticated equipment).

The Type 054A/Ps could potentially operate closer to the shore alongside the F-22Ps. In this case, I think the PN will lean on A2/AD assets (e.g., SWAT boats, PAF support, shore-based ASCMs, etc) to keep these boats safe from threats. Otherwise, their goal is to support ASW in more secure (from a surface and air-threat standpoint) environments. Thus, they don't need top-end ESM or AAW.

Basically, the PN wants to take the naval fight away from the littoral sphere and to edges of IOR and North Arabian Sea. However, it still needs assets to defend its green water zone, but top-end assets like the Babur-class and Jinnah-class would be too costly for that role. In fact, the point of the Babur-class and Jinnah-class is to push the biggest threats away from our littoral and green water spheres altogether. So, in that context, the Type 054A/P and F-22P should be enough.

Do you think Pakistan Navy will consider a destroyer? Like the Type 052D?

 

[Dreamer.]

Do you think Pakistan Navy will consider a destroyer? Like the Type 052D?

It seems unlikely in the near future at least. It will take time, resources & Manpower for PN to induct all the Type-54's, Babur class ships, Hangor class Subs etc. that are all already in the pipeline. (And Jinnah class still in design phase)

At a later stage, who knows? and whether at that stage it will be Type 052 or something else?

 

[Titanium100]

View attachment 770228
This is an official brochure for LY80N.
According to this Range for the illuminators is 85 KM. That makes more sense considering 30KM is shorter than the range of the basic HQ-16.

Yes it doesn’t seem to use mid-course guidance (still possible, but unlikely in A variant, likely present in later ones. Can still support ICWI+SARH mix without datalink but the limitation might be on the radar end?)
it’s intermittent illuminating, So i think the point still stands that you don’t need to constantly illuminate a target for the missile. Only before impact. I’ve seen CAMM-ER too, yes it’s a better PD system, simply because it’s much newer, kind of an unfair comparison, but I don’t see why HHQ-16 is that bad, especially if HHQ-16B/C has been navalized, with its 70KM range and other improvements it may well be able to hold its own against CAMM-ER. Yes theres not that much about its existence yet, but it only makes sense that China is at least working on it. Apart from the news article I posted earlier, this is from East pendulum, he’s been known to have insider info into Chinese tech, probably the most of anyone in the west.View attachment 770231

If we’re gonna give some sort of extra range benefit to CAMM-ER than who knows, maybe HHQ-16A can shoot farther than stated range too. Plus there’s videos of 54As dumping all their missiles at once in exercises by the PLAN, sure that still doesn’t mean they can all be guided, but it also means they could be.

Also important is addition of ESA panels around the 32th 054A, which, if they are illuminators, might indicate that China developed a new HQ-16 variant and are planning to integrate it, which yes doesn’t really matter for us because we’re getting the older versions, but it may show they are working on the newer missiles that Pakistan can adopt in the future.

I don’t think these vessels will be missing out on TAS either, or at least I hope they don’t, they weren’t that much cheaper. Plus if PN wants “low-end” assets imo there’s better ways of going about that, these are still expensive ships. So I don’t think this makes them Low-End vessels (especially with CM302), it just may be a consequence of the newer Chinese system not being ready yet.

On another note, LY-80 uses exhaust Vanes TVC.
View attachment 770233

It looks alot bigger than I had imagined up close

 

[Battlion25]

First Chinese-made 054A Guided Missile Frigate to commission in Pak Navy next week

The ceremony to commission the missile frigate will be held in Shanghai, China.

dunyanews.tv

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

First Chinese-made 054A Guided Missile Frigate to commission in Pak Navy next week

The ceremony to commission the missile frigate will be held in Shanghai, China.

dunyanews.tv

 

[Titanium100]

View attachment 789639

November 8th? Is that official

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

November 8th? Is that official

No its not official.
Official news only comes from DGPR (N).

So lets wait.

 

[araz]

Without a credible Naval Fighter jets arm, the PN is still a joke. And there is no other way to describe it. It is a strategic blunder which to this day still exists.

There has been a need for a twin engined long range heavy fighter in the AF for country wide and naval defence. More than the need the problem has been the lack of an appropriate platform. While the US and Pak were "Friends" we wanted the F15s but it did not happen due to cost and other considerations. Outside of the US there have been very few pickings of the kind we want and the cost has been prohibitive.
I think PN has been neglected for a long time and it shows in the lack of Surface and subsurface platforms. It seems PN has taken a view that it need to develop itself in a layered manner with surface and subsurface platforms in the first instance, followed by heavier surface platforms. PN current priority seems to be LR anti ship/sub platforms. It has mean while relied on cheaper options like drones, Helicopters(2nd hand Sea kings) and instead concentrated on Surface and Subsurface platforms. It seems it wants destroyers next. In the mean while we will possibly see the PAF buying some heavies at some stage for the air cover for PN and the country. There are a myriad of issues and a progressive approach is the only sensible way to go in my humble opinion. The developments may not be to everyone's liking but this is what we can do currently. The rest will have to wait.
Regards
A