Pakistani Navy going through a serious buildup

[Great Janjua]

So basically we have a ship that will be the least capable of facing modern threats.

It's just limited by HQ16 its anti air system which according to a senior fellow on here is limited by it's missile guiding abilities, it can only lock let's say 2 targets at a time,it's rather slow firing should I say,Where as modern options like the CAMM ER can lock on let's say more than 4 targets at a time and is fast firing.And by slow firing I mean the Chinese AA being able to fire 2 missiles since it can only lock 2 at a time. Where as the the Italian AA being able to fire 4 at a time since it has 2x the locking ability therefore being faster firing.hope you get the gist.

it’s a ship that can defend itself.

the Ada class is not intended to be preforming wide area AAW missions or bmd. We will see LRAD perhaps on Jinnah, however for now, the Ada has the huge advantage of its missiles being able to be expended in rapid succession, without guidance limitations, something important against swarm attacks as we can’t afford to wait for the hq16 to take out targets before launching a further salvo.

just in general I’d rate the milgem higher than the 054a(our version of the mil gems, not the Turks.)


You can sit there and complain but when a 054a takes a brahmos to the deck, you’ll be doing what I’m doing now.

But certainly the Chinese should have solved the guiding limitation factor by now, It is an major issue especially in this day and age where navies mostly concentrate on missile salvo attacks against a ship,They must have improved their radar tech to an extent compared to the Russians,So far it's a guessing game.

 

[Akh1112]

It's just limited by HQ16 its anti air system which according to a senior fellow on here is limited by it's missile guiding abilities, it can only lock let's say 2 targets at a time,it's rather slow firing should I say,Where as modern options like the CAMM ER can lock on let's say more than 4 targets at a time and is fast firing.And by slow firing I mean the Chinese AA being able to fire 2 missiles since it can only lock 2 at a time. Where as the the Italian AA being able to fire 4 at a time since it has 2x the locking ability therefore being faster firing.hope you get the gist.
But certainly the Chinese should have solved the guiding limitation factor by now, It is an major issue especially in this day and age where navies mostly concentrate on missile salvo attacks against a ship,They must have improved their radar tech to an extent compared to the Russians,So far it's a guessing game.

They have, that’s why 31+ 054a uses new aesa illuminator.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Even if the Type 054A/P is the PN's lowest cost acquisition, it's still a hefty cost in of itself. You're still trading off $200-250 m per ship that you could've spent on something else. I don't think the PN would have gone this road without knowing the Type 054A/P's future roadmap. I'm confident that in 15 years it'll have a different -- and much more capable -- AAW suite.

 

[Titanium100]

They have, that’s why 31+ 054a uses new aesa illuminator.

A fire control radar illuminator on top of Aesa could come hefty are they build into together as in one or they are two different systems in this new system

 

[Dreamer.]

They have, that’s why 31+ 054a uses new aesa illuminator.

Is the PN getting that? Or it is not known yet?

 

[Akh1112]

Is the PN getting that? Or it is not known yet?

Nope, we stick with the old ones.

 

[ziaulislam]

not really. ayub khan was an idiot with no foresight whatsoever, wasnt he the one who used to call navy useless and and navy ships pregnant ducks? he was instrumental in sabotaging the navy. he was overly inspired by the ongoing debate in the western world about efficacy of battleships post-ww2, in an era of aircraft carriers. his limited mind could not comprehend the actual debate and applied it to the entire navy.

he also replied to intelligence threat of Indian nuclear weapons with "we will buy them once they get them"

there would have been no 1971 if we had acquired nuclear weapons even if undeclared sicne then USA would have been partially been okay since we joined the american group under direct threat from soviets

 

[DHSquare]

he also replied to intelligence threat of Indian nuclear weapons with "we will buy them once they get them"

there would have been no 1971 if we had acquired nuclear weapons even if undeclared sicne then USA would have been partially been okay since we joined the american group under direct threat from soviets

V could really really milk US ala East Asian countries citing our anti communist stance as well as being active in the atoms for peace program. Atlast v were quite significant with East Pakistan in our hands frm geo strategic point of view as well as being the biggest jute producing country in the world at that time.

 

[Battlion25]

V could really really milk US ala East Asian countries citing our anti communist stance as well as being active in the atoms for peace program. Atlast v were quite significant with East Pakistan in our hands frm geo strategic point of view as well as being the biggest jute producing country in the world at that time.

Peace program for what reasons? Your post doesn't make any sense.. Pakistan is not in the bussiness to please anyone but herself

 

[DHSquare]

Peace program for what reasons? Your post doesn't make any sense.. Pakistan is not in the bussiness to please anyone but herself

Well looks like u haven't read my post in perspective of the post I quoted.

I was talking about how all the major US allies over the years developed their own technological n industrial base while our only real chance was in 60s of ayubs Pakistan. Even how imperfect he'd been form other angles.

 

[Titanium100]

Well looks like u haven't read my post in perspective of the post I quoted.

I was talking about how all the major US allies over the years developed their own technological n industrial base while our only real chance was in 60s of ayubs Pakistan. Even how imperfect he'd been form other angles.

It was Zia-Ul-Haq who build Pakistan into a strong nation alot of people may disagree with the man but he transformed pakistan into a regional power that is heading towards a superpower status all that was achieved by Zia-Ul-Haq he pushed Pakistan towards that trajectory.. One man's actions can do huge dfference sometimes

 

[Foinikas]

Pakistan Navy is going through a serious upgrade and buildup in the 7-8 years. I am happy that the Pakistani Navy is finally getting some attention. I always felt that the Pakistani Navy gets "overlooked" when compared to PAF and PA. Very formidable fleet for 1000 km coastline.

> 4 x Type-054AP frigates under construction (delivery 2021-23)

> 4 x MILGEM ships under construction (del 2023-25)

> 1 x Jinnah-class Frigate construction (del 2026-27)

> Two Damen made corvettes to join soon.

> Deal for 6 heavier tonnage corvettes to be concluded soon

> 8 x Hangor-class subs under construction (del 2022-28)

> 1 x Yuan-class sub being acquired from China for training purposes

> 1 more Modernised ATR-72 ASW aircraft to join soon (total 3 such planes)

> 10 jet-powered MP aircraft for ASW role to be acquired as a replacement of P-3C Orions. Deal for 1 is concluded

> Hypersonic P282 ship-launched anti-ship/land-attack ballistic missile

> MALE UAV contract concluded

New platforms being acquired is only part of the story.

PN have added new bases, shore based missile batteries, air defence, new marines battalions, information centre, nuclear command etc.

The PMSA has also grown in size.

The old PN was truly a joke in comparison.

And why not? It's a must. Even though Pakistan doesn't have a gigantic coastline nor many islands,the existence of a strong navy could be vital to the defence of the country or even act as a way to keep the Indian navy far.

 

[iLION12345_1]

They have, that’s why 31+ 054a uses new aesa illuminator.

We don’t know if that means much yet, we haven’t seen the ship fully equipped afaik.

Also you quoted the HQ-16s range to be 45KM when you said it was inferior to CAMM-ER. It’s range is 75KM if I recall correctly. With that you can do area interdiction.

054A can have 4 illuminators on one Hull, HQ-16 has mid course guidance, you don’t need an illuminator dedicated for the missile the whole time, just for the last few seconds before interception, so I also don’t see how that is much of an issue, and we already for a better radar on it…i agreed with you before but I’m having trouble seeing why you call it a lower-end solution the more I look into it.
so far you’ve only presented the one point about the missiles and that’s not too accurate. The missile is bigger and heavier than CAMM-ER, maybe a bit older? But I assume we have the newer B variant and not the older A variant. it has a longer range. Also 054A can be equipped with 32 VLS cells. MILGEM has half that. Sure there’s that one scenario where you need to dump all missiles at once, what about all the other scenarios where you’d rather have more missiles? And even then, mid course guidance, the illuminators need not work through the entire flight time of the missile.
It’s also not low end-cost wise, it’s not that cheap…

Also Does MILGEM have VDS + TAS?

 

[Akh1112]

We don’t know if that means much yet, we haven’t seen the ship fully equipped afaik.

Also you quoted the HQ-16s range to be 45KM when you said it was inferior to CAMM-ER. It’s range is 75KM if I recall correctly. With that you can do area interdiction.

054A can have 4 illuminators on one Hull, HQ-16 has mid course guidance, you don’t need an illuminator dedicated for the missile the whole time, just for the last few seconds before interception, so I also don’t see how that is much of an issue, and we already for a better radar on it…i agreed with you before but I’m having trouble seeing why you call it a lower-end solution the more I look into it.
so far you’ve only presented the one point about the missiles and that’s not too accurate. The missile is bigger and heavier than CAMM-ER, maybe a bit older? But I assume we have the newer B variant and not the older A variant. it has a longer range. Also 054A can be equipped with 32 VLS cells. MILGEM has half that. Sure there’s that one scenario where you need to dump all missiles at once, what about all the other scenarios where you’d rather have more missiles? And even then, mid course guidance, the illuminators need not work through the entire flight time of the missile.
It’s also not low end-cost wise, it’s not that cheap…

Also Does MILGEM have VDS + TAS?

1- there’s no naval HQ-16B.
2- Irrespective of when the missile needs guidance, the illuminators have a max range of 30km, thus limiting the missiles reach.
3- it has 4 illuminators because each illuminator can only light up a 70 degree arc.
4- CAMM is a far better point defence solution, especially with its superior kinematics and also it’s more modern electronics.
5- yes, the only advantage is the 32 cell setup, however, the launchers on the Babur class aren’t confirmed, who knows what they will be in the end, however what we know is camm-er is capable of being quadpacked.
6- the dumping thing was an example, however, as I have said before, if a 054a was to face a swarm of 8 ashms(a typical load out among most ships), there’s a very good chance it won’t be able to defend itself without some luck, this would mean each missile would need to intercept every target as you cannot provide guidance to more than 8 at once.
7- wrt mid course guidance, there is nothing to suggest that.
8- yes, they can be equipped with a vds or a ta.

 

[iLION12345_1]

1- there’s no naval HQ-16B.
2- Irrespective of when the missile needs guidance, the illuminators have a max range of 30km, thus limiting the missiles reach.
3- it has 4 illuminators because each illuminator can only light up a 70 degree arc.
4- CAMM is a far better point defence solution, especially with its superior kinematics and also it’s more modern electronics.
5- yes, the only advantage is the 32 cell setup, however, the launchers on the Babur class aren’t confirmed, who knows what they will be in the end, however what we know is camm-er is capable of being quadpacked.
6- the dumping thing was an example, however, as I have said before, if a 054a was to face a swarm of 8 ashms(a typical load out among most ships), there’s a very good chance it won’t be able to defend itself without some luck, this would mean each missile would need to intercept every target as you cannot provide guidance to more than 8 at once.
7- wrt mid course guidance, there is nothing to suggest that.
8- yes, they can be equipped with a vds or a ta.

There is a naval variant of HQ-16B according to Chinese news: https://kknews.cc/military/k98a42v.amp

Thanks for the rest, makes more sense now, I’ll see if I can dig up something related to Mid course guidance.
We will have to wait a bit more to see what exactly Babur class is getting, I assume we don’t know about VDS or TDA on it yet.