Pakistani laws prohibiting underage marriage un-Islamic: CII

[SHAMK9]

Fat pigs, go live in your caves

 

[M. Sarmad]

You know what is more funny, people! who who have never read the message of God but the confused translations, from confused sources.

Brother you seem to have no idea about the significance of Sahih Bukhari and its Sharah by Ibn e Hajr Asqalani in orthodox sunni Islam . You are always talking bad about Shia . And You are against liberal Muslims !!.You are the one who is confused here

 

[sur]

@Talon
or a better explaining version may be :

SAHIH BUKHARI
Volume 9, Book 86, Number 101 :
Narrated by 'Aisha
Allah's Apostle said, "It is essential to have the consent of a virgin (for the marriage). I said, "A virgin feels shy." The Prophet; said, "Her silence means her consent." Some people said, "If a man falls in love with an orphan slave girl or a virgin and she refuses (him) and then he makes a trick by bringing two false witnesses to testify that he has married her, and then she attains the age of puberty and agrees to marry him and the judge accepts the false witness and the husband knows that the witnesses were false ones, he may consummate his marriage."

That's apologetic translation, red part is not mentioned anywhere in Arabic version.

I have answered this in post#162 (Here)

Don't go down such path bcoz I have ugly arsenal of my own against other sects, which I don't want to get started on.

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Here the Arabic for you:

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عَاصِمٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ جُرَيْجٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ، عَنْ ذَكْوَانَ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ قَالَتْ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ الْبِكْرُ تُسْتَأْذَنُ ‏"‏‏.‏ قُلْتُ إِنَّ الْبِكْرَ تَسْتَحْيِي قَالَ ‏"‏ إِذْنُهَا صُمَاتُهَا ‏"‏‏.‏ وَقَالَ بَعْضُ النَّاسِ إِنْ هَوِيَ رَجُلٌ جَارِيَةً يَتِيمَةً أَوْ بِكْرًا، فَأَبَتْ فَاحْتَالَ فَجَاءَ بِشَاهِدَىْ زُورٍ عَلَى أَنَّهُ تَزَوَّجَهَا، فَأَدْرَكَتْ فَرَضِيَتِ الْيَتِيمَةُ، فَقَبِلَ الْقَاضِي شَهَادَةَ الزُّورِ، وَالزَّوْجُ يَعْلَمُ بِبُطْلاَنِ ذَلِكَ، حَلَّ لَهُ الْوَطْءُ‏.

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Sahih al-Bukhari 6971, In-book reference :Book 90, Hadith 18, USC-MSA web (English) reference:Vol. 9, Book 86, Hadith 101.

 

[BATMAN]

friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves f

Let not the believers take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

Where is this context coming from?

“Anyone who after accepting faith in Allah utters unbelief except under compulsion his heart remaining firm in faith but such as open their breast to unbelief on them is Wrath from Allah and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty”
Surah An-Nahal, verse 106 transliteration by Abdullah Yusuf Ali

And what is this? Who is Mr. Abdullah Yousaf? and what is he translating?

According to my personal understanding, lying and pride, both amount to shirk, any one practicing it under any circumstance can do it on his own risk.

 

[Jungibaaz]

16 year age is too less,minimun age should be atleast 18 for girls.

Even more if you ask me, but for all intents and purposes, in today's world, 18 it should be.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Time have changed - before people lived only 30 years old and died so they married early now people live up to 90 years old so late marriages is natural

Not to mention , wars in which 11 year old fought

Due to lack of medication people died at young age due to simple diseases like Fever etc

C2 or what every none sense organization it is , need to grow up with time and use common sense !!!

 

[Dubious]

That's apologetic translation, red part is not mentioned anywhere in Arabic version.

Uncle.....

6968. Narrated AbU Hurairah i
The Prophet said, "A virgin should not be
married till she is asked for her consent; and
the matron should not be married till she is
asked whether she agrees to marry or not." It
was asked, "0 Allah's Messenger! How will
she (the virgin) express her consent?" He
said, "By keeping silent."



Some people said, "If a virgin is not asked
for her consent and she is not married, and
then a man, by playing a trick presents two
false witnesses that he has married her with
her consent and the judge confirms his
marriage as a true one, and the husband
knows that the witnesses were false ones,
then there is no harm for him to consummate
his marriage with her and the marriage is
regarded as valid."

Its more of a some people said?

Green part prophet said....Blue part some people said....so there is nothing wrong with the hadith...no idea why they needed to add some ppl said when those some ppl are not part of Prophet's saying so shouldnt be part of hadith right?

Even more if you ask me, but for all intents and purposes, in today's world, 18 it should be.

Well, surprisingly 12 yr old kids in todays world know more than what 25 yr old men in those days knew

 

[livingdead]

Even more if you ask me, but for all intents and purposes, in today's world, 18 it should be.

we are living longer.. so we can afford longer childhood... at the same time parenting is much more stressful and demanding now a days.. Wonder why it is 16 in England and wales..

 

[batmannow]

this pandora box been pushed by mulana LAL MASJID, who has given so many media interviews on private, TV channels, that our constitution isnt is islamic, & laws in the country werent bassed on islam.
therefore all of the constitution should be rechecked or corected according to islam, this was been pushed as an agenda in the peace talks between govt/TTp.

CII been pushed by, political elites in power & by religious terrorists to push pakistan more of a hardcore wahabi muslim state, which can fight for the common intersts of KSA+UK+US+ISRAEL ?
then should give up its nucks, & live under a ameer ul momeeenins
its just a begaining, which is covertly supported by all major parties in power?
so be ready, my friends AMER UL MOMEENINs showtime is comming to you!
common senses going to be denied, & only special senses of special ones going tobe recognized?
thts the TTp shariha is?right
CII been pushed to make all that ligitimet!

 

[Jungibaaz]

we are living longer.. so we can afford longer childhood... at the same time parenting is much more stressful and demanding now a days.. Wonder why it is 16 in England and wales..

Yup, I wonder the same, often. At 16, a school boy has to ask his teacher if he can go to the toilet, and there he's allowed to make what could be and likely is the biggest decision of his life. I suppose it's an uber-liberal thing.

If I had it my way, 21 would be the age for marriage, regardless of what you keep the age of consent to 16 or whatever.
There is BIG difference between being physically mature for the age of consent, and being ready for marriage.

Well, surprisingly 12 yr old kids in todays world know more than what 25 yr old men in those days knew

Very true, I'll be honest, that thought never came to my mind. But even so, the world of 25 years ago is VERY different from the world of today, especially in our Pakistan. As human's progress, our lives also progress to become more difficult in an even if not seemingly even more difficult manner.

Is a 16 year old, or an 18 year old male or female ready to take up the responsibility of a family, and even children. Plenty of children here in the UK, 16, 17, decide to get married, or commit to relationships, they end sometimes in weeks, months or a year or two. The end result proves that such commitment should never be asked of a person who can't honour due to lack of maturity.

 

[syedali73]

People are quoting Hadiths here in support of this and that. It is extremely tricky and for most times quite misleading. It is difficult to accept or refute the authenticity of hadith based on its narrators alone. We also have to consider the time in which those questions were asked, and the culture of people (Bedouins) who asked those questions. It is easy to say that a girl should be consulted, and even if she was, you think a 9 or 12 or even 18 -years old will go against the will of her parents? In 99.99% cases she would not. Are we not brought up telling that parents and/or elders know better? Heck, when my parents proposed a girl for me (who is now my wife and we are happily married for 14 years), I did not have courage to say no to my parents, and I was doing my MD-PhD then.

 

[batmannow]

People are quoting Hadiths here in support of this and that. It is extremely tricky and for most times quite misleading. It is difficult to accept or refute the authenticity of hadith based on its narrators alone. We also have to consider the time in which those questions were asked, and the culture of people (Bedouins) who asked those questions. It is easy to say that a girl should be consulted, and even if she was, you think a 9 or 12 or even 18 -years old will go against the will of her parents? In 99.99% cases she would not. Are we not brought up telling that parents and/or elders know better? Heck, when my parents proposed a girl for me (who is now my wife and we are happily married for 14 years), I did not have courage to say no to my parents, and I was doing my MD-PhD then.

thats not the point sir,
all this thinking been pumped by mullha sawaati like killers, who want to get thier dirty hands on our malllala,s?
thats a theory, pushed by the terrorists, & our affraid well paid govt mullhas, start dancing to thier tunes?
thats what it, is?

 

[Sugarcane]

I have answered this in post#162 (Here)

Don't go down such path bcoz I have ugly arsenal of my own against other sects, which I don't want to get started on.

One flag represents my nationality, other location not sect. I don't believe in sectarian BS - Infect as per your friend Zarvan i am not even Muslim - so go on and expose whatever sect you want - none of my concern.
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Here the Arabic for you:

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عَاصِمٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ جُرَيْجٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ، عَنْ ذَكْوَانَ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ قَالَتْ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ الْبِكْرُ تُسْتَأْذَنُ ‏"‏‏.‏ قُلْتُ إِنَّ الْبِكْرَ تَسْتَحْيِي قَالَ ‏"‏ إِذْنُهَا صُمَاتُهَا ‏"‏‏.‏ وَقَالَ بَعْضُ النَّاسِ إِنْ هَوِيَ رَجُلٌ جَارِيَةً يَتِيمَةً أَوْ بِكْرًا، فَأَبَتْ فَاحْتَالَ فَجَاءَ بِشَاهِدَىْ زُورٍ عَلَى أَنَّهُ تَزَوَّجَهَا، فَأَدْرَكَتْ فَرَضِيَتِ الْيَتِيمَةُ، فَقَبِلَ الْقَاضِي شَهَادَةَ الزُّورِ، وَالزَّوْجُ يَعْلَمُ بِبُطْلاَنِ ذَلِكَ، حَلَّ لَهُ الْوَطْءُ‏.

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Sahih al-Bukhari 6971, In-book reference :Book 90, Hadith 18, USC-MSA web (English) reference:Vol. 9, Book 86, Hadith 101.

This is other Hadith not the one i quoted.

Uncle.....

Well i can't accept or nor deny it because i am not sure of authenticity of this

 

[Sugarcane]

That's in incomplete narration. More complete version fixes the misunderstanding that arose from the incomplete version that you quoted. More elaborate version tell us that "judge confirms" after lady consents before the judge.
The idea is, that as long as "ايجاب و قبول" is there between girl and boy; witnesses being false does NOT null the nikah. As per Hanafi Fikh (LINK), 2 witnesses are NOT even required. Just "ايجاب و قبول" and announcement of it makes nikah valid.




Here's a more complete version: This one makes it clear that she consented before consuming nikah. Witnesses being false doesn't affect nikah as long as lady told the judge that she accepts him as spouse.

Narrated `Aisha: Allah's Messenger said, "It is essential to have the consent of a virgin (for the marriage). I said, "A virgin feels shy." The Prophet; said, "Her silence means her consent." Some people said, "If a man falls in love with an orphan slave girl or a virgin and she refuses (him) and then he makes a trick by bringing two false witnesses to testify that he has married her, and then she attains the age of puberty and agrees to marry him and the judge accepts the false witness and the husband knows that the witnesses were false ones, he may consummate his marriage."
:

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عَاصِمٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ جُرَيْجٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ، عَنْ ذَكْوَانَ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ قَالَتْ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ الْبِكْرُ تُسْتَأْذَنُ ‏"‏‏.‏ قُلْتُ إِنَّ الْبِكْرَ تَسْتَحْيِي قَالَ ‏"‏ إِذْنُهَا صُمَاتُهَا ‏"‏‏.‏ وَقَالَ بَعْضُ النَّاسِ إِنْ هَوِيَ رَجُلٌ جَارِيَةً يَتِيمَةً أَوْ بِكْرًا، فَأَبَتْ فَاحْتَالَ فَجَاءَ بِشَاهِدَىْ زُورٍ عَلَى أَنَّهُ تَزَوَّجَهَا، فَأَدْرَكَتْ فَرَضِيَتِ الْيَتِيمَةُ، فَقَبِلَ الْقَاضِي شَهَادَةَ الزُّورِ، وَالزَّوْجُ يَعْلَمُ بِبُطْلاَنِ ذَلِكَ، حَلَّ لَهُ الْوَطْءُ‏.
Sahih al-Bukhari 6971, In-book reference : Book 90, Hadith 18, USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 9, Book 86, Hadith 101.
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Although i don't agree with all of your posts, but one thing i like about you that unlike apologetic mullahs who pull out something from air and try to justify it by claiming different roots, meanings of Arabic words or start telling different stories you come up with some logical argument.

I am happy that you acknowledge that there are incomplete Hadiths. So, sahih hadiths are not as much sahih as Mullahs claims. In this case why i shouldn't try to find guidance from Quran first rather than jump directly on these Hadiths.

For earlier part of your post regarding age - i don't agree with it. I will reply it later as i have to go through my notes to find out Quranic references.

PS: I will watch video latter, but anyway i respect Ghamadi and call him acual scholar of Islam.

 

[Sugarcane]

Here are verse of Al-Nisa regarding marriage

1- 004:024 Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise

Purpose of Marriage is to avoid sins not lust -

2- 004:025 If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practice self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

a) You can go to marry a young girl only IF you don't have means to wed women/Nisa, that also IF you fear that you may commit sin/adultery BUT better is to practice self-restraint. So, why not make laws to make Muslims practice first best option "Women" and teach them to practice self-restraint (in case of delay in marriage) which God Himself say is better instead of following these horny mullahs who most of the times think about sex and women.

b) Here the word for Girl which is used is "فتاة" which means young girl, by no means you can call a child young girl unless you are mentally sick.

To cover up their sick fatwas these mullahs comes up with logic that you can marry child even at age 2 but actual marriage should consummate when girl reach age of puberty - and puberty for them start with first cycle, on BBC once i watched documentary of tribe of Africa who lives naked and they have this practice of doing marriage before 2nd periods - this mullah brigades should be sent there as that environment is best suitable for them.

Consent is mandatory for marriage, I don't know how one can take consent from a kid who even don't know what the marriage is. Let's forget girl for time being, how we are gonna check puberty of a boy? masturbate him?

But anyway if anyone want logical and respectful answer/guidance for adulthood/maturity from Quran than below verses are enough (though i can quote couple more)

006:152 And come not nigh to the orphan's property, except to improve it, until he attain the age of full strength; give measure and weight with (full) justice;- no burden do We place on any soul, but that which it can bear;- whenever ye speak, speak justly, even if a near relative is concerned; and fulfil the covenant of Allah: thus doth He command you, that ye may remember

017:034 Come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength; and fulfil (every) engagement, for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).

1) When he/she attain the age of full strength 2) he/she is sound with judgement and can fulfill the engagement.

@Talon @Aeronaut @BATMAN @sur @Azlen Haider