Pakistan was created on the basis of group nationalism and not religion

[srsrsr]

With pride? Does that include majority of Kashmiris Assamis etc?
And when exactly when was India a united nation with such diverse ethnicity culture language and religion?

India became united nation, when freedom struggle began. We fought together and we live together. And We will be together. Thats the beauty of the people here.

If you think of it, the so called "group nationalism" as posted in original article, was there even before Islam identify came to India. There were Tamils , so were Marathas, Kannadigas, Punjabi etc. even before Muslim came. But none of them took advantage when freedom was about to be acheived to demand seperate nations. We fought together for independance and we stuck together.

 

[srsrsr]

ISLAM IS NOT LIMITED TO SPIRITUALITY but also gives an Economic System, Law, Character Building, Science etc.

During these times, do you still need direction from Religion to control these? Dont you trust your intellectuals to device something which fits modern times?

 

[srsrsr]

even if we take his argument as a justification, still India was never a nation, and it still isnt. what bounds them as one? just a word, a descriptive word for a piece of land used by foreigners? I see big time identity crisis coming their way...

samething which binds Sindh, Punjab, Balochs for you - Wait I'm assuming they all assume a Pakistan identify above their regional identify

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

even if we take his argument as a justification, still India was never a nation, and it still isnt. what bounds them as one? just a word, a descriptive word for a piece of land used by foreigners? I see big time identity crisis coming their way...

I would not like to go into whether India was a nation or was not since it would lead to pointless and vacuous posts. It matters not but what matter is the current situation, and sans the belief that people can be clairvoyant (kashf), the future.

As for the present situation, it would be safe to state that there is no identity crisis in India,

As for the future, those who have such obscurantist ideas of clairvoyance is feasible, can believe what they want.

by the way we can start a new thread with name "Identity crisis in modern day country called India"

One must.

How can people rest without creating discord and animosity?

After all, to some it is their bread and butter!!

All it will lead to is some vacuous pontification that is not worth the candle.

Take the case of Pakistan. It was a stable country with a steady economy and progress. It can still be so, but no, terrorists have divided the country into hardening their differences - Shia, Sunnis, Ahemdiyas, Sufi and so on. This type of people and mindset who are out to divide people and cause disharmony are to be careful of.

It is not that one cannot discuss issues, it is the pernicious intent gleefully doled out that alarms!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

India became united nation, when freedom struggle began. We fought together and we live together. And We will be together. Thats the beauty of the people here.

If you think of it, the so called "group nationalism" as posted in original article, was there even before Islam identify came to India. There were Tamils , so were Marathas, Kannadigas, Punjabi etc. even before Muslim came. But none of them took advantage when freedom was about to be acheived to demand seperate nations. We fought together for independance and we stuck together.

I know in two occasion Muslims Hindu and Sikh were united under one cause to kick the Brits out of the land whose primary objective was to enslave the people of the subcont. Tipu sultan is perhaps one of the few leaders who actually stood against the Brits while almost all so called pro freedom leaders were actually Brits tool to divide the people from within. And insallah soon Islam will be restored to its original form.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

During these times, do you still need direction from Religion to control these? Dont you trust your intellectuals to device something which fits modern times?

We dont trust the system that was created by illuminatis and the elites to control the world population. We have a much better system if fallowed properly but unfortunately its has been destroyed by the hands of its own people and other elements.

 

[Burger Boy]

If Jinnah wanted an Islamic state as per the claims of some here, then why would he hire a Hindu as Law Minister of Pakistan when a Hindu would not be able to develop our law according to Sharia.

What I do agree with is that Pakistan is indeed the sick man of Asia and to turn it around, we have to go according to the plan we had when this nation was made.

Not some religously confused reactionary state.

Also the first foreign minister was an Ahmadi

 

[Kavin]

Opportunism
Noun: Taking advantage of opportunities without regard for the consequences for others

Oh sorry, this thread's talking about nationalism and religion.. and not opportunism. off-topic.

 

[Omar1984]

@Omar1984,

Even the letters you quoted is talking more about redistribution of staes based on religious majority and minority. No mention of sepratism or Pakistan in any of the letters although the Pakistan scheme had been articulated in 1933.

Moreover, there is contention on the 1937 letters as these were released by the Muslim League during the 1946 elections. Alleged to use the stature of Allama Iqbal to influence the elections.

Here is a scanned copy of Allama Iqbal's letter to the editor on the Pakistan scheme on the 1930 speech that you keep quoting again and again for proof about the North West Indian states.

You bharati muslims have no limit in trying to impress your bharati hindu masters. You even quote an article from the most least reliable source, The Ahmadiyya Movement Website.


Please get rid of your obsession about Pakistan. Even Allama Iqbal never cared about you bharti muslims, in his speeches he talked about that Punjab, NWFP, Balochistan, Sindh, Kashmir, and Bengal should be a separate Muslim state. He cared about the Muslims of North-west British India Empire (present day Pakistan). He never mentioned Hyderabad, Uttar Pradesh, Gujrat, Bihar, and the rest of poverty-stricken places where muslims make a strong presence in bharat today. Neither Allama Iqbal nor the Pakistanis today care much about bharati muslims. Allama Iqbal cared about the Muslims of North west British India Empire (present day Pakistan), evident from his speeches and his letters. Only Jinnah cared about bharati muslims, thats why he invited all Muslims of the subcontinent to settle in Pakistan in 1947.


My source from a neutral source, Columbia University, is more reliable and authetntic than your source which is from the Ahmadiyya Movement website.

Private and Confidential
Lahore
June 21st, 1937

My dear Mr. Jinnah,

Thank you so much for your letter which I received yesterday. I know you are a busy man; but I do hope you won't mind my writing to you so often, as you are the only Muslim in India today to whom the community has a right to look up for safe guidance through the storm which is coming to NorthWest India and perhaps to the whole of India. I tell you that we are actually living in a state of civil war which, but for the police and military, would become universal in no time.

During the last few months there has been a series of Hindu-Muslim riots in India. In North-West India alone there have been at least three riots during the last three months and at least four cases of vilification of the Prophet by Hindus and Sikhs. In each of these four cases, the vilifier has been murdered. There have also been cases of burning of the Qur'an in Sind. I have carefully studied the whole situation and believe that the real cause of these events is nither religious nor economic. It is purely political. I.e., the desire of the Sikhs and Hindus to intimidate Muslims even in the Muslim majority provinces. And the new constitution is such that even in the Muslim majority provinces, the Muslims are made entirely dependent on non-Muslims.

The result is that the Muslim Ministry can take no proper action and are even driven to do injustice to Musiims partly to please those on whom they depend, and partly to show that they are absolutely impartial. Thus it is clear that we have our specific reasons to reject this constitution. It seems to me that the new constitution is devised only to placate the Hindus. In the Hindu majority provinces, the Hindus have of course absolute majorities, and can ignore Muslims altogether. In Muslim majority provinces, the Muslims are made entirely dependent on Hindus. I have no doubt in my mind that this constitution is calculated to do infinite harm to the Indian Muslims. Apart from this it is no solution of the economic problem which is so acute among Muslims.

The only thing that the communal award grants to Muslims is the recognition of their political existence in India. But such a recognition granted to a people whom this constitution does not and cannot help in solving their problem of poverty can be of no value to them. The Congress. President has denied the political existence of Muslims in no unmistakable terms. The other Hindu political body, i.e., the Mahasabha, whom I regard as the real representative of the masses of the Hindus, has declared more than once that a united HinduMuslim nation is impossible in India. In these cirecumstances it is obvious that the only way to a peaceful India is a redistribution of the country on the lines of racial, religious and linguistic affinities. Many British statesmen also realise this, and the Hindu-Muslim riots which are rapidly coming in the wake of this constitution are sure further to open their eyes to the real situation in the country. I remember Lord Lothian told me before I left England that my scheme was the only possible solution of the troubles of India, but that may take 25 years to come.

Some Muslims in the Punjab are already suggesting the holding of [a] North-West Indian Muslim Conference, and the idea is rapidly spreading. I agree with you, however, that our community is not yet sufficiently organised and disciplined and perhaps the time for holding such a conference is not yet ripe. But I feel that it would be highly advisable for you to indicate in your address at least the line of action that the Muslims of North-West India would be finally driven to take.

To my mind the new constitution with its idea of a single Indian federation is completely hopeless. A separate federation of Muslim provinces, reformed on the lines I have suggested above, is the only course by which we can secure a peaceful India and save Muslims from the domination of nonMuslims. Why should not the Muslims of North-West India and Bengal be considered as nations entitled to self-determination just as other nations in India and outside India are?

Personally I think that the Muslims of North-West India and Bengal ought at present to ignore Muslim[-minority] provinces. This is the best course to adopt in the interests of both Muslim majority and minority provinces. It will therefore be better to hold the coming session of the League in the Punjab, and not in a Muslim minority province. The month of August is bad in Lahore. I think you should seriously consider the advisability of holding the coming session at Lahore in the middle of October when the weather is quite good in Lahore. The interest in the All-India Muslim League is rapidly growing in the Punjab, and the holding of the coming session in Lahore is likely to give a fresh political awakening to the Punjab Muslims.

Yours sincerely,
(Sd). Mohammad Iqbal
Bar-at-Law

Iqbal to Jinnah: two letters, 1937

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Omar,

Are you suggesting the Ahmediyas are not Pakistanis?

The first FM was an Ahmediya and he was eloquent for Pakistan's cause.

The only Nobel Laureate of Pakistan is a Ahmediya.

But then your refrain is that anyone but whatever Sect you belong to is wrong and they should be a 'namak haram'.

If I may say, this type of attitude is what is dividing Pakistan and is the root cause of its sad state today!

Unite and not Divide.

Accommodate and not Hate!

 

[Omar1984]

Most of the region of Pakistan was always different from most of the region of Bharat. Pakistan has many strategic importance and the land has rich history and rich beauty that is the reaon bharatis are obsessed about Pakistan. Not to mention that the people of Pakistan were always 1000 times better looking than the people of bharat.

The Indus Valley Civilization

The empire of Alexander the Great

The Achaeminid Persian Empire

The Sassanid Persian Empire

The empire of Muhammad Bin Qasim in South Asia

Ummayyad Caliphate

Ghaznavid Empire

Durrani Empire

 

[Omar1984]

Omar,

Are you suggesting the Ahmediyas are not Pakistanis?

The first FM was an Ahmediya and he was eloquent for Pakistan's cause.

The only Nobel Laureate of Pakistan is a Ahmediya.

But then your refrain is that anyone but whatever Sect you belong to is wrong and they should be a 'namak haram'.

If I may say, this type of attitude is what is dividing Pakistan and is the root cause of its sad state today!

Unite and not Divide.

Accommodate and not Hate!

According to Pakistani constitution, Ahmadiyyas are non-muslims and cant call themselves Muslims so of course naturally many Ahmadiyaas are going to despise Pakistan.

 

[Kavin]

You bharati muslims

'Bharat' is a term derived from Hindu mythology 'Mahabharat' and no way you can associate the term with Indian Muslims (who don't believe in incarnations of God) and pls refrain from using improper words.

YEven Allama Iqbal never cared about you bharti muslims

سارے جہاں سے اچھا ہندوستاں ہمارا

ہم بلبليں ہيں اس کی، يہ گلستاں ہمارا

Better than the entire world, is our Hindustan,
We are its nightingales, and it (is) our garden abode

If we are in an alien place, the heart remains in the homeland,
Know us to be only there where our heart is.

That tallest mountain, that shade-sharer of the sky,
It (is) our sentry, it (is) our watchman

In its lap frolic those thousands of rivers,
Whose vitality makes our garden the envy of Paradise.

O the flowing waters of the Ganges, do you remember that day
When our caravan first disembarked on your waterfront?

Religion does not teach us to bear ill-will among ourselves
We are of Hind, our homeland is Hindustan.

In a world in which ancient Greece, Egypt, and Rome have all vanished without trace
Our own attributes (name and sign) live on today.

Such is our existence that it cannot be erased
Even though, for centuries, the cycle of time has been our enemy.

Iqbal! We have no confidant in this world
What does any one know of our hidden pain?

 

[53fd]

Another irritating thing that EjazR claims and assumes is that if Dar Uloom Deoband didn't exist in India, there would an equivalent extremist Barelvi group to the Deobandi Taliban supported by the Pakistani Army. How did he come to that conclusion? All sorts of people have lived peacefully alongside the Barelvis for 63 years, yet he quotes the example of a person (who wasn't a very religious person either, he had premarital relationships with women) & thinks all Barelvis are inherently extremist as Deobandis are. He clearly lacks any knowledge of the Barelvi creed. His blind hatred towards anything & everything Pakistan clearly knows no bounds, he is a lapdog of his Hindu masters in India, much like his mentor M.J.Akber. He lies shamelessly over everything to degrade Pakistan, & quotes Indian media (very impartial!) sources to support his claims. The problem is that he thinks he can cast doubt on the essence of the very creation of Pakistan. He quoted some NSA documents about Iraq not having WMDs, but I gave him more NSA documents that were falsified at the time of war & claimed that Iraq indeed did have WMDs, which is why Bush went to war in Iraq in the first place. And he seems to think that this proves that what the NSA documents mentioned about Pakistan's alleged relations with Taliban is true.

 

[53fd]

"Group nationalism" argument is crap. This is very evident when Pak was created along with Bengal, where except religion there's no group characteristics.

Pakistan was created to help Muslim majority, Period, irrespective of the type of government ( islamic, non-islamic or mixup of boths doesnt matter)

But that doesn't mean that an Islamic Republic of Pakistan goes against the vision that Jinnah had for the country, right? You just admitted that yourself.