Pakistan-US joint air exercise - Falcon Talon III

[Aamir Hussain]

Agreed. The only issue at the moment is pakistan's support to terrorism in India and Afghanistan. Pakistan stops this official support and its all lovey dovey.

My friend let us not be naive here. This kind of talk is all good for the kids who love to thump chests from both sides of the border, on this forum.

Today's terrorists are tomorrows freedom fighters....what would you call the Muktibahani, officially supported by India, looking from your side of the border and what would we call them back in 70? Or for that matter fueling Baloch insurgency, and our support to the freedom struggle and right to self determination in Kashmir. Come on let us not insult each others intelligence here.

So play that big role that India so desires in this world and show true leadership...stop becoming a military might when you really don't have to be one to resolve regional issues. Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Burma, Nepal, Bhutan, China and for that matter Pakistan can not dream of conquering India.

There has been a precedent where one of us backed off of supporting an insurgency....it was never reciprocated from the other side. If today we can repeat the same but this time reciprocated in kind from the other side things would suddenly change and the whole region would benefit from it including the respective "Awam/janta."

I am not out to show you or any other Indian on this forum, down....this is evident from the number of times I have engaged anyone of you on a tit for tat. But really, things can be different if we look at things from a different point of view. My2C worth!!

 

[krash]

Religious people have been in Pakistan since its inception, yet things such as suicide bombings were unheard of. So why did this phenomenon emerge during the first decade of 2000s? Clearly, something changed.

Oh but they tried. We must not forget the slogans of Kafiristan and Kafir-e-azam. They were kept under tight control, until the self realised khalifatulbakistan, Zia, believing himself to be the true momin, not only removed the tight hold but also tried to put religious groups at the forefront of Pakistan's society, politics and power structures. He also tried everything in his power to 'Islam-ise' the Pakistani society. You know, the time when the blasphemy laws and the hudood ordinance came into effect? A matchstick in a monkey's hand. That is when religious extremism actually began in Pakistan, not in the 2000s. You can't dismiss the bombings and killings that went on in the country throughout the 80s and the 90s in the name of religion. Suicide attacks aren't the only definition of religious extremism.

I have had the displeasure of having discussed this issue with some of the most representative liberals and 'civil society' in the country. A retort from a lady: "So things should hit rock bottom before they can become better, right?" Implying that the open season of brutality should reach a crescendo. This was said in mid 2000s, and lo and behold we had APS some years later. So can you say this isn't premeditation to tarnish the image of Islam and Islamic people in the country?

I am an 'Islamic person' but that does not mean that I ignore all these lunatics. What is completely blind to our people is that every tom, dick and harry wielding a beard is not a religious authority, they themselves are no religious authority. No one in this country understands the religion yet are the most forceful proponents of it. For example, they use 'liberalism' as a taunt while not realising that Islam itself is one of the most liberal schools of thought even in today's day and age.

How can you conveniently forget that TTP is sponsored by CIA and RAW?

And these morons provide them with recruits and the very ability to exact their schemes.

But you want friendly relations with USAF and corridors of love with Indians.

Pragmatism. Not for any love of them.

More than the bloodletting by TTP, Pakistan's existential base has been destroyed through secular, worldly, stooges of Americans and friends of Indian businessmen. Biased much?

Although that is very contestable, what you fail to realise is that this menace of religious extremism has eaten away at the very base of our social, economic and political structure. It has fragmented your country and delivered death to tens of thousands of your own countrymen by your own countrymen. While the fix for a corrupt leader can be swift, if the will exists in the public (which does not since we are all corrupt), this disease of religious extremism has brought us to our knees all the while not bringing us anywhere near Islam.

It's time we stopped being defensive, stopped being typically Pakistani.

There has been a precedent where one of us backed off of supporting an insurgency....it was never reciprocated from the other side. If today we can repeat the same but this time reciprocated in kind from the other side things would suddenly change and the whole region would benefit from it including the respective "Awam/janta."

Twice.

 

[araz]

Oh but they tried. We must not forget the slogans of Kafiristan and Kafir-e-azam. They were kept under tight control, until the self realised khalifatulbakistan, Zia, believing himself to be the true momin, not only removed the tight hold but also tried to put religious groups at the forefront of Pakistan's society, politics and power structures. He also tried everything in his power to 'Islam-ise' the Pakistani society. You know, the time when the blasphemy laws and the hudood ordinance came into effect? A matchstick in a monkey's hand. That is when religious extremism actually began in Pakistan, not in the 2000s. You can't dismiss the bombings and killings that went on in the country throughout the 80s and the 90s in the name of religion. Suicide attacks aren't the only definition of religious extremism.



I am an 'Islamic person' but that does not mean that I ignore all these lunatics. What is completely blind to our people is that every tom, dick and harry wielding a beard is not a religious authority, they themselves are no religious authority. No one in this country understands the religion yet are the most forceful proponents of it. For example, they use 'liberalism' as a taunt while not realising that Islam itself is one of the most liberal schools of thought even in today's day and age.



And these morons provide them with recruits and the very ability to exact their schemes.



Pragmatism. Not for any love of them.



Although that is very contestable, what you fail to realise is that this menace of religious extremism has eaten away at the very base of our social, economic and political structure. It has fragmented your country and delivered death to tens of thousands of your own countrymen by your own countrymen. While the fix for a corrupt leader can be swift, if the will exists in the public (which does not since we are all corrupt), this disease of religious extremism has brought us to our knees all the while not bringing us anywhere near Islam.

It's time we stopped being defensive, stopped being typically Pakistani.



Twice.

The issues raised are very tricky and difficult to handle. The islamisation of the 80s was as much a ploy by Zia for his own preservation as it was secondary to the rise of Shia Iran and the fears of the Sunnis in this regard. So that factor needs to be taken into account. I will not go into Shia Sunni divide but needless to say there is one and a reaction to one incites the other.
Pakistan and islam are two diverse things. We were treacherous in the first instance asking for a nation and country so we can be muslims and then reneging on our words and promises by introducing all styles other than Islam. And yes before you ask, there is a system of living and governing in Islam which does need fine tuning but is doable if one wants. Is it not a reality that when ordinary educated Muslim knows everythjing about everything but Zilch about his deen and delegates the responsibility to the Mullah that you will have the Khadim Hussain Rizvis of this world taking advantage of it. Do we then blame the mullah or our own jahiliat in not understanding the Quran and Sunnah. Then there are words invented like a liberal Muslim, Sufi, and other such terms to give one licence to do everything that is abhorrent in Islam. So we have a huge burden to answer for as a nation.
I agree regarding pragmatism for maintaining relations with India and US, but are we really that naive that we dont see the Brass and polity lining their pockets from gains from sale of Western armament in all shape and sizes from the famous 40 million dollarsa of Anwar Shamim to the Saab Agency in the house of Kaleem Saadat, to discrepencies and coersion in the sale of the Luna Drones by some General. This is just to name a few amongst many.
Regarding your comment about religious extremism, we have become so intolerant to anything that is contrary to our beliefs whether right or wrong , then so we really have an excuse? We need to qualify religious extremism and set parameters for it. It is a dichotomy of our beliefs that an IED exploded in a Bazaar in Afghanistan, or for that matter in Palestine targeting Israeli soldiers is commended which invariably kills inocent bystanders, yet the same act in your own bazaar is a filthy act.
We really need to sort out what we want to do as a nation and as muslims. If we call ourselves Muslims then we need to stick to Quran and Sunnah and not on what Noorani or Peerani saheb says.
A

 

[GumNaam]

Met a squadron leader recently who had done a flying instructors course from China. Not very up to par with international standards.

I'm sure PLAAF is learning as much from us as we are from them.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

The issues raised are very tricky and difficult to handle. The islamisation of the 80s was as much a ploy by Zia for his own preservation as it was secondary to the rise of Shia Iran and the fears of the Sunnis in this regard. So that factor needs to be taken into account. I will not go into Shia Sunni divide but needless to say there is one and a reaction to one incites the other.
Pakistan and islam are two diverse things. We were treacherous in the first instance asking for a nation and country so we can be muslims and then reneging on our words and promises by introducing all styles other than Islam. And yes before you ask, there is a system of living and governing in Islam which does need fine tuning but is doable if one wants. Is it not a reality that when ordinary educated Muslim knows everythjing about everything but Zilch about his deen and delegates the responsibility to the Mullah that you will have the Khadim Hussain Rizvis of this world taking advantage of it. Do we then blame the mullah or our own jahiliat in not understanding the Quran and Sunnah. Then there are words invented like a liberal Muslim, Sufi, and other such terms to give one licence to do everything that is abhorrent in Islam. So we have a huge burden to answer for as a nation.
I agree regarding pragmatism for maintaining relations with India and US, but are we really that naive that we dont see the Brass and polity lining their pockets from gains from sale of Western armament in all shape and sizes from the famous 40 million dollarsa of Anwar Shamim to the Saab Agency in the house of Kaleem Saadat, to discrepencies and coersion in the sale of the Luna Drones by some General. This is just to name a few amongst many.
Regarding your comment about religious extremism, we have become so intolerant to anything that is contrary to our beliefs whether right or wrong , then so we really have an excuse? We need to qualify religious extremism and set parameters for it. It is a dichotomy of our beliefs that an IED exploded in a Bazaar in Afghanistan, or for that matter in Palestine targeting Israeli soldiers is commended which invariably kills inocent bystanders, yet the same act in your own bazaar is a filthy act.
We really need to sort out what we want to do as a nation and as muslims. If we call ourselves Muslims then we need to stick to Quran and Sunnah and not on what Noorani or Peerani saheb says.
A

It's off-topic!!!! For the Turkish conservative Muslim folks, it's like Nation=Homeland=Flag=Faith!!! Only missing part was State/Government!!! In the 80's they took great hope from the Pak Army that one day they might add State/Government in the above equation too!!!

Finally for them it's the following:

Nation=Homeland=Flag=State=Government=Faith

And, now is the time for them to revert the Treaty of Lausanne, which is like a seal on the soul of the Turkish folks, letter by letter....

"We have killed Turkey from inside. She will never be able to gain her former might and glory" - Lord Curzon, Head of the Allied delegation, after the signing of the Treaty of Lausanne

"We have purchased a reasonable peace for the next 100 years" - Ismet Pasha, Head of the Turkish delegation, after the signing of the Treaty of Lausanne

"What Pak Army did to put Islam in the public sphere, our party is doing the same in Turkey" - a Deputy in the Parliament from the current ruling AK Party

 

[Raider 21]

I'm sure PLAAF is learning as much from us as we are from them.

I've worked with the Chinese recently. It will take a while....they are learning but it will take a while....

 

[GumNaam]

I've worked with the Chinese recently. It will take a while....they are learning but it will take a while....

you've worked with them in what capacity? like, air force? or military? I'm asking because I've worked with a ton of Chinese as well but never in the capacity of military or air force...strictly civilian. I've always found them to be very innovative and technologically sound and advanced.

 

[Raider 21]

you've worked with them in what capacity? like, air force? or military? I'm asking because I've worked with a ton of Chinese as well but never in the capacity of military or air force...strictly civilian. I've always found them to be very innovative and technologically sound and advanced.

I'll call it in the aviation field....unfortunately cannot say more than that. Everyone has their own sets of experiences but my primary advice to them was to look at aviation safety and flight training seriously...particularly on the flight safety side.

Cheers !!!

 

[Tps43]

I'll call it in the aviation field....unfortunately cannot say more than that. Everyone has their own sets of experiences but my primary advice to them was to look at aviation safety and flight training seriously...particularly on the flight safety side.

Cheers !!!

were they like our army aviation guys wrt flight safety?

 

[GumNaam]

I'll call it in the aviation field....unfortunately cannot say more than that. Everyone has their own sets of experiences but my primary advice to them was to look at aviation safety and flight training seriously...particularly on the flight safety side.

Cheers !!!

Ah, I see. You are right, if China's Comac C919 is gonna take on Boeing and Airbus then they have to pay SERIOUS attention to safety and recovery systems. military pilots can bail out. passengers in an airline can't.

 

[Raider 21]

were they like our army aviation guys wrt flight safety?

I have experience with the air force, unaware of army aviation standards.

Cheers !!!

 

[araz]

I have experience with the air force, unaware of army aviation standards.

Cheers !!!

AHH> He got it out of you finally!!! Funny how interactions can lead to teasing of info trickle by trickle. Very interesting.
Kind regards
A

 

[Raider 21]

AHH> He got it out of you finally!!! Funny how interactions can lead to teasing of info trickle by trickle. Very interesting.
Kind regards
A

And that is generic info.

Cheers!!!

 

[MastanKhan]

"What Pak Army did to put Islam in the public sphere, our party is doing the same in Turkey" - a Deputy in the Parliament from the current ruling AK Party

Hi,

Thank you for your post---. Would you be kind enough to expand on it---. Thank you.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Hi,

Thank you for your post---. Would you be kind enough to expand on it---. Thank you.

Let me give you a #of examples!!! Too much explanations can get me BANNED!!!!!

• Adnan Menderes, PM from 1950-1960: Allowed Azan to be called in Arabic. Never publicly set feet inside any mosque while being PM.
• Suleyman Demirel, PM/President etc. at different periods b/w 1965 to 1999: Used to publicly attend Ju'ma Namaz in mosques going there using official transports. Opened a large #of Imam Hatip schools and allowed their grads to attend different faculties in the universities. Recruited them in the civil service.
• Turgut Ozal, PM/President from 1983 to 1993: Used to pray 5 times inside the Presidential Palace. He eased the tough restrictions put inside the "tutelage" constitution to restrict the Islamic activities.
• Rejep Tayip Erdo'an, PM/President from 2002 to ---: Changed the "tutelage" constitution (dictated by CIA/MOSAD/Zionists etc.) all together. Recite from the Kur'an-i Kerim in Arabic at the public meetings. Allowed headscarves for ladies in schools, hospitals, public offices etc. Removed restrictions on Imam Hatip schools and their grads (now, they can even join the army as officers). Introduced Biography of the Prophet (PBUH) and Ottoman Turkish in high schools. Himself calls the Azan in the Millet mosque inside the Presidential Palace. He's raising a Dindar Nesil...