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Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

It's worth noting that if Pakistan was genuinely interested, it'd take a few years to just draft the accord/agreement. MMU is serious. It'd take a lot of negotiation, audits, and investigation to figure out offsets, co-production, IP sharing, etc. The amount of money involved would be as much as CPEC.
No matter how badly the other folks want it, Pak is never short of cash or options for her critical defense requirements! Now, you've put India into the backfoot, especially, S-400 vs F-35....

Last Afgans are now the last hopes...
 
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It is not a binary choice between TFX or J-35/21 - PAF most likely will operate both types with different roles. Pakistan has been keen to develop defence relatons with Turkey as shown by the T-129 attempted procurement.

PAC offers the TFX programme cheaper manufacturing of components that are time intensive to manufacture at a much lower labour costs than in Turkey while maintaining control over IP - etc.
And, some critical inputs and ideas and "imagination" that money can't buy!!! How many AFs have the brains and guts to take on a 7x larger enemy AF or an AF that Iblis is proud of, whose religious redemption lies in Pak's perdition, head on with only a couple of billions of $s in the treasury, while those resourceful enemies are supported by all means by almost entire known world from the men and the Sheyatin?
 
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It's worth noting that if Pakistan was genuinely interested, it'd take a few years to just draft the accord/agreement. MMU is serious. It'd take a lot of negotiation, audits, and investigation to figure out offsets, co-production, IP sharing, etc. The amount of money involved would be as much as CPEC.
I think you are underestimating PAC, less than a year later, more than 10 test centers will be opened in the new complex in Ankara, including RCS finder. Likewise, more developed ones are located in China. Pakistani engineers can always benefit from them. The reason why I am pessimistic about direct partnership is the engines. No matter how hard they try not to break the pot, it is impossible for them to produce the domestic engine for the first deliveries, and even the first aircraft in the inventory will use the F110. Since the USA sees Pakistan as a part of China, this already risky chance will be reduced to zero. It should also be taken into account that the program already has too many risks for a country like Turkey.
 
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This is what i do not appreciate about Twitter and social media because unnecessary hype is created and when the balloon bursts, it is nothing but air....

Renowned universities are working on different areas. just to highlight few:

  • ****************************************************************jects.....
Try speaking to Graduate & PhD level candidates at these unis



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I admire your optimism. Unfortunately, I had the unique pleasure of studying at SMME. It was Pakistan's toughest Mech Eng to get into, barring GIKI but for GIKi there is a huge financial tag that most students cant afford, so SMME it was for me. The state of mech eng there and the general engineering scene at NUST and its associated sister colleges was quite poor and from the stories I hear, is only worsening. Internal, petty politics, right from the Rector level to the Principle to the HoD of each department has ruined whatever was left of the school. Personally, the last nail in the coffin was the departure of Dr. Ghafoor as the Principle after his disagreement over power sharing with the then rector. SMME has seen massive decline in quality. I can say this because I work directly with SMME and its students. More to the point, the post-grads show very very little promise.

SEECs faired much better though, it had a vibrant CS department that was flourishing but that's pretty much it. The research however undertaken there too was quite limited in nature. Every good researcher from my batch left Pakistan for the US or EU and has absolutely no interest in going back. Without a massive revolution in the way our universities are run, the aviation city won't produce a lot of results.
 
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My concern is more about Turkish economy. How USA has started attacking its economy. Western powers don't like Erdogan at all. They don't like a strong Islamic country just at the foot steps of Europe. USA has already engineered a military coup against Erdogan. If Turkey turns liberal again, it would continue to get everything from USA. However USA does not like countries will a soul and will of their own. They don't like people of character, integrity and independent thinking. I don't think Turkey would be able to get hands on anymore western technologies. I don't think they will be able to get hands on GE F110s, US would intervene and stop their sales. Specially with Pakistan involved now, chances of anything western are gone. Everything has to be indigenous. Which makes me wonder? Weren't we better off continuing with the Chinese?

It can be the case that it is Pakistan i.e. trying to protect Turkish interests here, not as much vice versa. Alone, Turkish program would die or chances of a failed product are high. By joining the program, Pakistan would be able to get China more insight into F35 technologies from Turkey. And China in return can provide engines/ technology for TFX, maybe help develop it in a major way. I am quite apprehensive that Turkey & Pakistan alone can pull off an indigenous aircraft, forget the engines. Building an aircraft under TOT & license is one thing, developing one from scratch is another. Developing its engines is altogether another. To me it sounds more like a step towards Pak-Turk + China - Russia alliance to build and mature 5th gen technologies. With Russia sanctioned by USA, China can predict that it can be sanctioned as well in coming months/years. Both Russia and China need economic and military partners for the future. Its a developing situation, I think Russia would be willing to sell its high end engines now. Likewise, China would also have a more liberal stance sharing its technologies. Russia + China can benefit from funding of its military development/ some R&D money/ learning etc by partnering with Pakistan & Turkey.
 
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During an interview with Rana Mubashir-Aaj News, Mr. Temel Kotil, President & CEO TAI said that TF-X is now a “Turkish-Pakistani fighter”. Dr. Rizwan Riaz (AVM) Pro Dir RIC & VP NSTP adds that it is a 5th Gen Fighter Aircraft in which Pakistan & Turkiye are now collaborating. The link to TV program is as follows along with a documentary picture being shared on the Forum.


In above TV Program, the concerns have talked about the level of collaboration from the ground level to exchange program. However, details are not being shared in depth but it helps to have a bit of idea about cooperation between both countries.

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A little background about Pakistan Turkiye possible collaboration in TFX

Back in 2017, ACM Sohail Aman said:

"We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made.
The baseline is that we have to develop high-end technology ourselves. Of course, the American and Western technologies are better, but if it is unavailable, then we have to make the best use of our own capabilities and our friends."
"I consider it a breach of promise on their part because the United States promised to co-fund this operation (as part of its foreign military assistance). They didn’t adhere to this promise, which is very sad. As a responsible nation, you don’t do this. American funding for F-16s would have been a win-win situation for both.
While that happened, we kept looking at other options. I think we have some of the leading options both in China and Russia. We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft."


Then after in 2019, during an interview with Alan Warnes, PAC Kamra Chairman, AM Ahmer Shahzad says as follows.
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In view of above statements/interviews, it appears that Pakistan - Turkiye collaboration was discussed before as well and what CEO TAI recently revealed is not totally a new development.

Project AZM
  • The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has formally announced it will commence development of a 5th-generation fighter, medium altitude long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) and munitions under the banner of “Project Azm” (i.e. resolve or determination).
  • AvDI’s long-term endeavour is clearly the 5th-generation fighter program (FGF). In the past several years, several factors emerged which analysts thought would shape the PAF’s next-generation fighter pursuits, most notably the rise of the AVIC FC-31 Gyrfalcon. While the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) is clearly progressing in developing the fighter, it is unclear if the PAF will pursue it. If not the FC-31, then realistically only two other alternate courses remain: the TAI TFX and an original design.
  • Pakistan has been billed as a prospective partner in the TFX, Turkey’s next-generation fighter effort. On repeated occasions since 2016, Turkish government and industry and Pakistan MoDP officials confirmed the link. However, the Pakistan MoDP’s statements regarding the matter had only verified Ankara’s invitation, but it was unclear if the approach was commercially oriented (akin to PAC’s work in supplying Anka parts) or in relation to possible PAF procurement.
  • The PAF itself did not comment on TFX, but aviation journalist Alan Warnes (who is directly in touch with the PAF) reported in May that the TFX is “likely to figure in the PAF’s new generation fighter requirement.”

The following details is hereby quoted and copied from Wikipedia as a refresher and for the ease of readers.


From the original source TF - TUSAS


In order to meet Turkish Air Force (TurAF) requirements beyond 2030s, an indigenous design and development program aims to replace the aging F-16 fleet of TurAF.

Within the scope of TF-X Program, Turkey will become one of the few countries to possess the necessary technologies, engineering infrastructure and production capabilities. Once the engineering activities on all the critical technologies are accomplished (e.g. increased situational awareness, sensor fusion, low observability, weapon bay, …etc), which are needed by a 5th generation (or beyond) jet fighter aircraft.

TF-X aircraft is planned to be kept operational in the TurAF inventory until 2070s and will be interoperable with other critical assets of TurAF such as F-35As.

The TF-X indigenous design and development program prime contract between Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM) of Ministry of Turkish National Defence and Turkish Aerospace has been signed on 5th of August 2016.

The timing of this signature alone, is a key demonstrator of Turkey’s determination of running mega-projects uninterruptedly, even under extra-ordinary conditions.

Currently, the prime contract covers the initial four (4) years (starting after signature of major subcontracts) which will end up with completion of preliminary design phase. Within this period beyond the design and development of TF-X Aircraft, engineering capabilities, technology development activities (for key sensors like radar, electronic warfare..etc.), test infrastructures establishment and certification processes will be performed and extensive capabilities for a new generation jet fighter design, development and production will be gained by Turkish industry.

TF-X aircraft will be a multi-role aircraft, it will be designed mainly for air-to-air role with a consideration to air-to-surface roles as well. Upon engineering analysis, TF-X aircraft will be a multi-role aircraft, it will be designed mainly for air-to-air role with a consideration to air-to-surface roles as well. Upon engineering analysis, preliminary calculations, based on received information of suppliers of candidate engines, TF-X aircraft is decided to be a twin engine configuration.

Turkish Fighter-TF, the 5+ Generation Multirole Fighter Aircraft, provides significant capabilities in both Air to Surface and Air to Air combat requirements. Turkish Aerospace’s survivable, strong and agile platform Turkish Fighter is a fully aware warrior, with intelligent and strong combat capabilities.

Turkish Fighter provides air dominance through:

- Increased air to air engagement ranges with Novel Weapons
- Precise and accurate weapon firing from internal weapon bays at high/supersonic speed
- Augmented lethality with support of Artificial Intelligence and Neural Networks.

Other information including Features & Technical data can be found on official website by visiting the given link as above.

Article in Combat Aircraft on TF-X from January
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Turkey's most popular defense industry and military aviation news platform disclses as follows.
The first prototype of National Combat Aircraft (MMU) will reach the assembly phase by the end of this year.


Development Schedule Overview (Wikipedia)​

Development Phase-1 was expected to officially commence by the end of 2014,[37] however, initial conditions were met and the project has officially started in late 2018.

On June 30, 2021, Turkish Air Force made an official presentation about the TF-X program to the press. In the presentation, it was stated that Phase-1 Stage-1 had started with preliminary design works, right after T0 stage. As part of preliminary design activities, system requirements review (SRR) is currently being carried out. By the end of 2022, system functionality review (SFR) and system requirements review (SRR) will be completed. Thus, the preliminary design activities will come to an end. The program is expected to go to the next stage by 2023 when the initial roll-out occurs with engines capable of taxiing.[1]

Phase-1 Stage-2 involves detailed design and qualifications carried out in the 2022-2029 period. The aircraft will roll out in 2023, critical design review (CDR) activities will be carried out in 2024, the production of the first aircraft, called Block-0, will be completed in 2025 and the first flight will be accomplished in 2026. Until that date, TAI aims to manufacture 3 prototypes.[1] The Block-1 configuration is planned to be developed until 2029. Manufacture of 10 Block-1 fighter jets are planned within the scope of Phase-2, and aircraft will be delivered to the Turkish Air Force between 2030 and 2033.[1] In Phase-3, between 2034 and 2040, development and mass production activities of other TF-X blocks is planned.[1]

Design​

TF-X is the first 5th-generation aircraft involving digital twin technology for the design and production.[38][39]

Requirements​

In June 2021, Turkish Air Force, in a presentation made to the press, announced its requirements for minimum capabilities of the TF-X.[1]

  • Improved aerodynamics and propulsion
  • Super-cruise
  • Sufficient and optimized combat radius
  • Advanced and internal multi-spectral sensors (EW and RF/IR)
  • Low observability
  • Sensor fusion and autonomy
  • Improved data-link capabilities for network enabled warfare
  • High precision stand-off weapons

Airframe​

Hüseyin Yağcı, TAI's chief engineer on the TF-X program, has stated that all three conceptual designs thus far feature a design optimized for low radar cross-sectional density, internal weapons bays, and the ability to supercruise, features associated with fifth-generation fighter jets.[5]


Mockup, rear view
TAI's Advanced Carbon Composites fuselage facility, which was commissioned to produce fuselages for Lockheed Martin's Joint Strike Fighter (F-35) program,[40][41] has been tasked with developing an Advanced Carbon Composite fuselage for the TF-X. The Turkish Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM) has also issued a tender for the development of a new lighter carbon composite thermoplastic for the TF-X fuselage.[42]

Radar and sensors​

ASELSAN is currently developing an advanced active electronically scanned array radar which will use gallium nitride (GaN) technology for the TF-X program.[43]

Avionics and equipment​

The TF-X will be integrated from the cockpit to accompanying UAVs (most likely the TAI Anka) through encrypted datalink connections.[44] The aircraft will likely use upgraded variants of Aselsan's own radar warning receiver (RWR), missile warning system (MWS), laser warning system (LWS), chaff and flare management, dispensing system and digital radio frequency memory (DRFM)-based jamming system, which already deployed with the other air platforms.[45][46]

Propulsion​

Prototypes will be equipped with General Electric F110 engines until national ones are developed by TRMotor.[47][48] There are ongoing negotiations with Rolls-Royce on development of an engine for the TF-X.[49]

Preliminary specifications​

Data from Turkish Aerospace[50]

General characteristics

  • Crew: One pilot
  • Length: 21 m (68 ft 11 in)
  • Wingspan: 14 m (45 ft 11 in)
  • Height: 6 m (19 ft 8 in)
  • Wing area: 60 m2 (670 sq ft)
  • Max takeoff weight: 27,215 kg (60,000 lb)
  • Powerplant: 2 × General Electric F110 for test flights (national engines to be developed by TRMotor) , 120 kN (27,000 lbf) thrust each
Performance

  • Maximum speed: 2,222 km/h (1,381 mph, 1,200 kn)
  • Maximum speed: Mach 1.8[3]
  • Combat range: 1,100 km (690 mi, 600 nmi)
  • Service ceiling: 17,000 m (55,000[3] ft)
  • g limits: +9.0 g & -3.5 g
Armament

Avionics


It is pertinent to mention here that Project AZM is an umbrella entity by Pakistan to fulfill future defence needs with self reliance & indigenous programs. Without going into details about Project AZM, since the same is already explained and discussed in a dedicated thread, we shall continue here on topic of Pakistan Turkiye JV for NGFA by collaborating in TFX program.

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Mashallah more great news !!
 
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And my take on this from pure logic would be that PAF will not introduce stealth to the region before IAF. PAF would not want to start a race, by itself. Hence the long game, either TFX will become a reality, at some stage in the future and PAF will buy into the program.

If IAF, by some stroke of luck gets 5th Gen fighters from the West first, PAF has the option to buy a Chinese equivalent. This is pretty much the same course of action taken by J10C buy vs Rafale, they waited until the end for a reason.

Yeh bhi nahi… woh bhi nahi. Tau kia kuchh bhi nahi?
PAF has already more than matched up to the capacity build-up on the other side. The thing most people are still failing to realize is that if a skirmish occurs and PAF goes toe to toe with IAF in the next 2-3 years again, they can punish the enemy AND take a hit.

A J10/JFB3 going down at our end, with a Meteor is far easily replaceable vs a brand new Rafale taken out by PL15 (facing PLAAF and PAF at the same time). Indians would need to invest a hell of lot of more money into the Rafale program if they want to have it viable vs both PAF and PLAAF at the same time. Can you imagine the psychological impact of losing a Rafale, knowing that they won't be able to replace it for a good 5-6 years unless they find a way to convince the French to offload one of theirs? That vs PAF getting a replacement bird within months if ordered new, or within weeks directly from PLAAF stock if need be?

We just need our pilots to survive the skirmish.
 
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I mean no disrespect to my country but it feels a little embarrassing when Turkish brothers are being too polite.

  1. we have no technological base in aviation (Mirage rebuild and JF-17 assembly don't make us eligible for something as complex as 5th Generation partnership). secondly I am at loss to think what can we offer to Turks in terms of aviation know how which they don't have already.
  2. Other limitation is financial health, Turks need a GCC sleeping partner that is willing to sign the USD cheques without a problem with a promise that it will get something comparable to F-35 in the end which the Americans are currently reluctant to supply.
looking at the habits of Pakistani posters, they will wave the Ummah card and will demand the Turks to first design and develop that jet to PDF wish list and then hand it over for free and also provide money for its maintenance and running., failing that will will result in Turkey being down graded to Iran's level of hatred,
 
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And my take on this from pure logic would be that PAF will not introduce stealth to the region before IAF. PAF would not want to start a race, by itself. Hence the long game, either TFX will become a reality, at some stage in the future and PAF will buy into the program.

If IAF, by some stroke of luck gets 5th Gen fighters from the West first, PAF has the option to buy a Chinese equivalent. This is pretty much the same course of action taken by J10C buy vs Rafale, they waited until the end for a reason.


PAF has already more than matched up to the capacity build-up on the other side. The thing most people are still failing to realize is that if a skirmish occurs and PAF goes toe to toe with IAF in the next 2-3 years again, they can punish the enemy AND take a hit.

A J10/JFB3 going down at our end, with a Meteor is far easily replaceable vs a brand new Rafale taken out by PL15 (facing PLAAF and PAF at the same time). Indians would need to invest a hell of lot of more money into the Rafale program if they want to have it viable vs both PAF and PLAAF at the same time.

We just need our pilots to survive the skirmish.
Understandable but the horizon for AZM NGF was always going to be 2040ish. So it’s not the current, short or even mid-term threats it was meant for but the purpose was to provide a contemporary aircraft for the world of ~2040 and provide fleet replacement option around 15-20 years from now.
 
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This is great news. We had to collaborate because Pakistan cannot design and develop a 5th gen fighter alone.
I think they should set the limits high and aim for something similar to F22 in capabilities or better. The top speed of mach 1.8 is not that good and should have above mach 2.5, a stealth fighter should be able to sneak past defences, take out the target n leave quickly. Also it should have a beast mode like F35 where weapons and drop tanks can be carried on hard points.
 
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