Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

[dBSPL]

We Pakistanis are not delusional like the Turks.

2004: When will the Turks design/product their own infantry rifle?
2006: When will the Turks design/product their own warship?
2008: When will the Turks build their own armed drone?
2010: When will the Turks produce attack helicopters?
2012: When will the Turks build their own missile arsenal?
2014: When will the Turks build their own air defense system?
2016: When will the Turks build their own warplanes?
2018: When will the Turks make their own air-to-air missiles?
2020: When will the Turks produce their own turboshaft engine?
2022: When will the Turks make their own turbofan engine?

I have been following various defense industry forums for nearly 20 years. In every era, we have been described as delusionals. Moreover, 90% of those who said this were people who were unaware of the established production capacity in TR and people really not aware about developments. Turkiye's problem was to show courage and invest in areas such as design, testing and material technologies besides its production capabilities.


Our resources are not unlimited, resource efficiency is vital to manage project risks, we have achieved some things, we are trying to achieve some things. But we never said that, 'hey do not dream in vain, we already did not catch up with this industrial accumilation so just never mind.'

I don't know you and please don't take what I say as disrespect. But please do not discourage Pakistani youth here. If there is a way of salvation for Pakistan, it is in the youth who will dream for their country and set out with this dream.

 

[SABRE]

I thought Turkey and Pakistan had pooled their resources together for the next-gen fighter. Did I miss something while I have been keeping away from this forum?

 

[JamD]

@Quwa @dBSPL @Signalian @PanzerKiel @JamD and others

May I ask you a question? Why is Pakistan not involved more in TFX project(s)?

People mistakenly think that TFX is just one big project but it has hundreds and hundreds of subcategories with totally differing programs spread over the entire defense tech spectrum.

Really, Idon't understand why Pakistan declined the Turkish invitation in the first place? Be honest, please. It can't be a resource related issue. The program itself is stretched over decades. It is possible for Pakistan to participate in it with careful planning. Yes, Turkey is ahead of Pakistan technologically but it's not like Pakistanis are empty-handed. They, too, have fields of expertise which could have helped accelerate the process.

A plane is more than its mere physical appearance. I believe that Pakistanis could have helped us out with everything related to software development.

There are other opportunities as well.

Outsourcing production parts to Pakistan with a highly skilled labour force, cutting costs, making the jet more competitive, bringing jobs to the Pakistani aviation industry while assisting Turkey, creating and supporting an eco systems that would benefit Pakistan for decades to come.

If I as a guy on the internet with zero knowledge and a layman can figure this out, why didn't the authorities in Pakistan approve to take part in this endeavour?

I'm not talking about Pakistan receiving the actual jet which is difficult due to the engine issue. I know that but there are other important aspects as well.

I'm asking why Islamabad refused to get involved in an industrial context which back then was an absolutely realistic approach.

Is it possible that the Pak military didn't believe in Turkey's capacity to go through with this project? What was the reason for Pakistan's reluctancy?

The simple answer is that Pakistan is interested/involved in the TFX project and not just in a customer context (albeit they should've joined sooner). That's all I will say. Not because it's some super secret but because it is not set in stone and these things are fluid.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

@Quwa @dBSPL @Signalian @PanzerKiel @JamD and others

May I ask you a question? Why is Pakistan not involved more in TFX project(s)?

People mistakenly think that TFX is just one big project but it has hundreds and hundreds of subcategories with totally differing programs spread over the entire defense tech spectrum.

Really, Idon't understand why Pakistan declined the Turkish invitation in the first place? Be honest, please. It can't be a resource related issue. The program itself is stretched over decades. It is possible for Pakistan to participate in it with careful planning. Yes, Turkey is ahead of Pakistan technologically but it's not like Pakistanis are empty-handed. They, too, have fields of expertise which could have helped accelerate the process.

A plane is more than its mere physical appearance. I believe that Pakistanis could have helped us out with everything related to software development.

There are other opportunities as well.

Outsourcing production parts to Pakistan with a highly skilled labour force, cutting costs, making the jet more competitive, bringing jobs to the Pakistani aviation industry while assisting Turkey, creating and supporting an eco systems that would benefit Pakistan for decades to come.

If I as a guy on the internet with zero knowledge and a layman can figure this out, why didn't the authorities in Pakistan approve to take part in this endeavour?

I'm not talking about Pakistan receiving the actual jet which is difficult due to the engine issue. I know that but there are other important aspects as well.

I'm asking why Islamabad refused to get involved in an industrial context which back then was an absolutely realistic approach.

Is it possible that the Pak military didn't believe in Turkey's capacity to go through with this project? What was the reason for Pakistan's reluctancy?

The simple answer is that Pakistan is interested/involved in the TFX project and not just in a customer context (albeit they should've joined sooner). That's all I will say. Not because it's some super secret but because it is not set in stone and these things are fluid.

Just echoing @JamD, but it takes a few years to properly set up a fighter consortium and onboard new members. For example, the original JSF members didn't become members overnight, especially the first group after the U.S. initiated the project.

 

[JamD]

@Quwa @dBSPL @Signalian @PanzerKiel @JamD and others

May I ask you a question? Why is Pakistan not involved more in TFX project(s)?

People mistakenly think that TFX is just one big project but it has hundreds and hundreds of subcategories with totally differing programs spread over the entire defense tech spectrum.

Really, Idon't understand why Pakistan declined the Turkish invitation in the first place? Be honest, please. It can't be a resource related issue. The program itself is stretched over decades. It is possible for Pakistan to participate in it with careful planning. Yes, Turkey is ahead of Pakistan technologically but it's not like Pakistanis are empty-handed. They, too, have fields of expertise which could have helped accelerate the process.

A plane is more than its mere physical appearance. I believe that Pakistanis could have helped us out with everything related to software development.

There are other opportunities as well.

Outsourcing production parts to Pakistan with a highly skilled labour force, cutting costs, making the jet more competitive, bringing jobs to the Pakistani aviation industry while assisting Turkey, creating and supporting an eco systems that would benefit Pakistan for decades to come.

If I as a guy on the internet with zero knowledge and a layman can figure this out, why didn't the authorities in Pakistan approve to take part in this endeavour?

I'm not talking about Pakistan receiving the actual jet which is difficult due to the engine issue. I know that but there are other important aspects as well.

I'm asking why Islamabad refused to get involved in an industrial context which back then was an absolutely realistic approach.

Is it possible that the Pak military didn't believe in Turkey's capacity to go through with this project? What was the reason for Pakistan's reluctancy?

The simple answer is that Pakistan is interested/involved in the TFX project and not just in a customer context (albeit they should've joined sooner). That's all I will say. Not because it's some super secret but because it is not set in stone and these things are fluid.

Just echoing @JamD, but it takes a few years to properly set up a fighter consortium and onboard new members. For example, the original JSF members didn't become members overnight, especially the first group after the U.S. initiated the project.

Just to give the scale of involvement, I expect more Pakistanis to be working on the TFX by the end of this year than ever were working on Azm.

 

[Tipu7]

@Quwa @dBSPL @Signalian @PanzerKiel @JamD and others

May I ask you a question? Why is Pakistan not involved more in TFX project(s)?

People mistakenly think that TFX is just one big project but it has hundreds and hundreds of subcategories with totally differing programs spread over the entire defense tech spectrum.

Really, Idon't understand why Pakistan declined the Turkish invitation in the first place? Be honest, please. It can't be a resource related issue. The program itself is stretched over decades. It is possible for Pakistan to participate in it with careful planning. Yes, Turkey is ahead of Pakistan technologically but it's not like Pakistanis are empty-handed. They, too, have fields of expertise which could have helped accelerate the process.

A plane is more than its mere physical appearance. I believe that Pakistanis could have helped us out with everything related to software development.

There are other opportunities as well.

Outsourcing production parts to Pakistan with a highly skilled labour force, cutting costs, making the jet more competitive, bringing jobs to the Pakistani aviation industry while assisting Turkey, creating and supporting an eco systems that would benefit Pakistan for decades to come.

If I as a guy on the internet with zero knowledge and a layman can figure this out, why didn't the authorities in Pakistan approve to take part in this endeavour?

I'm not talking about Pakistan receiving the actual jet which is difficult due to the engine issue. I know that but there are other important aspects as well.

I'm asking why Islamabad refused to get involved in an industrial context which back then was an absolutely realistic approach.

Is it possible that the Pak military didn't believe in Turkey's capacity to go through with this project? What was the reason for Pakistan's reluctancy?

We are. Bit late though. Possibly, we can observe the South Korean Indonesia KFX type relation in case of TFX (Turkey Pakistan).

Infact, for Pakistan, Turkey is enroute to become largest joint producer of military hardware.

 

[Ali_Baba]

India will be having lots of kittens if PAF does get the Kızılelma as it will be every effective in helping to take out the S400 and for also doing deep "surgical strikes" inside India ...

it is the logical next step after PAF has inducted and operationalised the existing drones into their doctrine and the associated systems are integrated into Pakistans core backbone for C&C ..

 

[araz]

India will be having lots of kittens if PAF does get the Kızılelma as it will be every effective in helping to take out the S400 and for also doing deep "surgical strikes" inside India ...

it is the logical next step after PAF has inducted and operationalised the existing drones into their doctrine and the associated systems are integrated into Pakistans core backbone for C&C ..

If PAF does acquire it, the capability should be kept closely under wraps as exposure will take out the element of surprise in any encounter.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

We are. Bit late though. Possibly, we can observe the South Korean Indonesia KFX type relation in case of TFX (Turkey Pakistan).

Infact, for Pakistan, Turkey is enroute to become largest joint producer of military hardware.

I bet the PAF will try its hand at buying KF-21s off-the-shelf. Unfortunately, it'd depend a lot on our ties with the U.S. in about 5-7 years, but for now, the KF-21 looks like a pretty enticing jet for what it is.

 

[PakFactor]

I bet the PAF will try its hand at buying KF-21s off-the-shelf. Unfortunately, it'd depend a lot on our ties with the U.S. in about 5-7 years, but for now, the KF-21 looks like a pretty enticing jet for what it is.

If the China/India equation wasn't a factor I would have rated the possibly higher for us getting it, but with current geopolitical environment our chances are nil we have two options only China or Turkish project if it gets off the ground (but let's hope the main components aren't US).

 

[waz]

@Quwa @dBSPL @Signalian @PanzerKiel @JamD and others

May I ask you a question? Why is Pakistan not involved more in TFX project(s)?

People mistakenly think that TFX is just one big project but it has hundreds and hundreds of subcategories with totally differing programs spread over the entire defense tech spectrum.

Really, Idon't understand why Pakistan declined the Turkish invitation in the first place? Be honest, please. It can't be a resource related issue. The program itself is stretched over decades. It is possible for Pakistan to participate in it with careful planning. Yes, Turkey is ahead of Pakistan technologically but it's not like Pakistanis are empty-handed. They, too, have fields of expertise which could have helped accelerate the process.

A plane is more than its mere physical appearance. I believe that Pakistanis could have helped us out with everything related to software development.

There are other opportunities as well.

Outsourcing production parts to Pakistan with a highly skilled labour force, cutting costs, making the jet more competitive, bringing jobs to the Pakistani aviation industry while assisting Turkey, creating and supporting an eco systems that would benefit Pakistan for decades to come.

If I as a guy on the internet with zero knowledge and a layman can figure this out, why didn't the authorities in Pakistan approve to take part in this endeavour?

I'm not talking about Pakistan receiving the actual jet which is difficult due to the engine issue. I know that but there are other important aspects as well.

I'm asking why Islamabad refused to get involved in an industrial context which back then was an absolutely realistic approach.

Is it possible that the Pak military didn't believe in Turkey's capacity to go through with this project? What was the reason for Pakistan's reluctancy?

Funds bro to be honest.

 

[KaiserX]

Funds bro to be honest.

Funds wont be a problem if we nationalize all army owned industries/land

 

[Tipu7]

I bet the PAF will try its hand at buying KF-21s off-the-shelf. Unfortunately, it'd depend a lot on our ties with the U.S. in about 5-7 years, but for now, the KF-21 looks like a pretty enticing jet for what it is.

Provided IAF secures the MMRCA 2.0 (90 Rafales in total) PAF will have no choice but to procure stealth fighter in limited numbers to retain the 'edge'. I doubt U.S. will onwards allow transfer of any high tech U.S. origin hardware to Pakistan. In that case, I see J-35 as more considerable option as a stop gap measure (2025-27) till TFX (with reduced U.S. components) will become available.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Funds wont be a problem if we nationalize all army owned industries/land

Nationalization is what screwed our economy in the first place, taking over army-owned companies and putting them in the hands of civilians is going to do nothing but ruin them.

 

[flameboard]

No, bro, you obviously don't understand my point of view. I want to see the Made in Pakistan stamp on as much equipment as possible in the Turkish defense industry. This is not about procurement. Why can't you understand this? You have the industrial foundation to participate but you don't and I'm kindly asking for the reason behind this decision. Perhaps I'm overlooking something and that's why I'm asking.

Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country