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Pakistan, Turkey friendship rooted in history: Ayaz

There will always be attempts to downplay Pakistan and Turkey relationship for the obvious reasons as non well wishers hate to see this alliance.

Some will argue it's all for money or even arms and may even try and put a price on it.

If you are not a Pakistani or a Turk...it will be very difficult for you to understand this relationship.

This is true brotherhood, most if not all of this world don't have this privilege and will never have it or even understand it.

As you can see from comments here, These attempts don't bother Pakistanis and Turks.

And the feeling that they express should not matter at all.It carries no weight against the strong people to people and state to state ties between the two countries.The business & trade between the two brotherly nations,that's only going to improve,
 
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So you believe that Shah Waliullah (d.1762) and Syed Ahmed Shaheed (d.1831) were Founding Fathers of Pakistan !!

I wonder why didn't you mention invaders like Muhammad Bin Qasim and looters like Ghaznavi and Abdali as the Founding Fathers of Pakistan ..

How do you see Sir Syed Ahmed Khan? I have read that his contribution established the foundation of Pakistan....
 
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So you believe that Shah Waliullah and Syed Ahmed Shaheed were Founding Fathers of Pakistan !!.

Both fought in their own way for the declining state of the Muslims of the Subcontinent, one tried to re-enlightened the need for education and zeal of the Muslims and inspired many followers, while other raised up arms to try to protect the rights and freedom of the Muslims of the subcontinent, if by being a secular you forsake Islam and the history of the Muslims than I'm glad that I am not one of you.
 
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How do you see Sir Syed Ahmed Khan? I have read that his contribution established the foundation of Pakistan....



The whole idea of "Muslim Nationalism in South Asia" was developed by Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and the Aligarians, this idea was inspired by the political theories of John Locke, Milton and Thomas Paine .... The creation of Pakistan was indeed the culmination of a process that derived all of its sustenance from this idea/theory ..


Bitterly opposed to this idea were people like Jamaluddin Afghani and Maududi .. Afghani severely criticized Sir Syed for the rejection of the idea of Pan-Islamism by the latter, and Mullah Maududi described the idea of Muslim Nationalism as unlikely as a ”chaste prostitute” ... (Abul Ala Maudoodi, Mussalman Aur Maujooda Syasi Kashmakash, quoted in K. K.Aziz, The Making of Pakistan, p. 148.)




Afghani was in India from 1879 to 1883, detained in Hyderabad for his political activities against the British. He was approached by the so called Ulama to give a fatwa declaring Sir Syed a heretic. Afghani’s fatwa condemned Sir Syed as a collaborator, who threw off his religion, converted to Christianity, and claimed that all the prophets were Necharis and did not believe in God (The Fatwa was published first in Persian in 1881 in Hyderabad, then in Urdu in 1884 in Calcutta, and in Arabic in 1885 from Beirut).


We chose Afghani and Maududi over Sir Syed and Jinnah .. In Pakistan, Jinnah and Sir Syed are held in high regard, but their ideological opponents (i.e, Afghani and Maududi) are followed by the vast majority of Pakistanis ... This "contradiction" has resulted from the state-sponsored religious-chauvinistic indoctrination via distortion .

Both fought in their own way fought for the declining state of the Muslims of the Subcontinent, one tried to re-enlightened the need for education and zeal of the Muslims and inspired many followers, while other raised up arms to try to protect the rights and freedom of the Muslims of the subcontinent, if by being a secular you forsake Islam and the history of the Muslims I'm glad that I am not one of you.

I am not denying their services to Islam or the Muslims of India, all I am asking is that how were they "the Founding Fathers of Pakistan" ??
 
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The whole idea of "Muslim Nationalism in South Asia" was developed by Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and the Aligarians, this idea was inspired by the political theories of John Locke, Milton and Thomas Paine .... The creation of Pakistan was indeed the culmination of a process that derived all of its sustenance from this idea/theory ..


Bitterly opposed to this idea were people like Jamaluddin Afghani and Maududi .. Afghani severely criticized Sir Syed for the rejection of the idea of Pan-Islamism by the latter, and Mullah Maududidescribed the idea of Muslim Nationalism as unlikely as a ”chaste prostitute” ... (Abul Ala Maudoodi, Mussalman Aur Maujooda Syasi Kashmakash, quoted in K. K.Aziz, The Making of Pakistan, p. 148.)




Afghani was in India from 1879 to 1883, detained in Hyderabad for his political activities against the British. He was approached by the so called Ulama to give a fatwa declaring Sir Syed a heretic. Afghani’s fatwa condemned Sir Syed as a collaborator, who threw off his religion, converted to Christianity, and claimed that all the prophets were Necharis and did not believe in God (The Fatwa was published first in Persian in 1881 in Hyderabad, then in Urdu in 1884 in Calcutta, and in Arabic in 1885 from Beirut).


We chose Afghani and Maududi over Sir Syed and Jinnah .. In Pakistan, Jinnah and Sir Syed are held in high regard, but their ideological opponents (i.e, Afghani and Maududi) are followed by the vast majority of Pakistanis ... This "contradiction" has resulted from the state-sponsored religious-chauvinistic indoctrination via distortion .

Let me come out of shock and allow me to thank you...Your posts are really informative....I have one request if you don't mind......I belong to young generation of Pakistanis and very keen of Pakistani history pre-independence and after it....

I was asking if you can refer to me what book I should study for history of Pakistan and our forefathers, which book should I take? Can you also make some threads regarding topics related to Pakistan, country's personalities, history and topics which draw Pakistanis attention generally....
 
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@hellfire twe
@SarthakGanguly

A meaningless, vapid thread.

I noted with some amusement @hellfire 's enthusiasm on discovering this aspect of Jinnah. Ataturk was a very strong influence on him, and my amusement is due both to his lack of awareness of this very basic characteristic, and equally to the ignorance of all on this thread of the direct and fundamental contradiction encapsulated in this personal history.

When Gandhi supported the Ali Brothers in the Khilafat Movement, it was Jinnah who warned him, in vehement terms, not to introduce religion into the body politic. Look up that dire warning, and read for yourself the force and passion with which this essentially secular person cautioned Gandhi. We can safely say that this terrible step by Gandhi laid the foundation for the forthcoming alliance between the conservative Muslim and the ulama and the Congress, an alliance that led to their calling Pakistan Paleetistan, and jeering at Jinnah as the Kaffir-e-Azam. One of the main culprits was Maulana Maudoodi, about whom my limited vocabulary will fail to do justice; only the acid pen of a Yassir Latif Hamdani can adequately deal with it.

Meanwhile what has been described in a brilliant word as the Muslim 'salariat', led by the graduates of the Aligarh Muslim University, lined up with the Muslim League, as they saw a direct competition developing between them and educated Hindus for the loaves and fishes of office. They were leaderless and ineffective, except for British efforts to maintain their presence with tactful attention to the rules, and a positive disposition towards Muslims, until Jinnah returned from his self-imposed exile in Britain, upon which the movement caught fire and moved from strength to strength. It was at this point that the British Viceroys, from Linlithgow onwards, heaved a monumental sigh of relief and hauled up the Muslim League to a position of parity with the Congress, led, as always, by a completely unpredictable and idiosyncratic Gandhi.

It is interesting to note what a huge impact on the sub-continent these two Kutchis had.

To return to the point, Jinnah's vision was close to Ataturk's vision; both lie in ruins now. Ataturk has been betrayed by Erdogan and the return of Islamism to Turkey, and the current defeat of the Army, not necessarily a secularist Army, but possibly one affiliated to a different strand of Islamism, one opposed to Erdogan. Jinnah was betrayed in very short order; the nascent state left him to die in a broken-down ambulance, and soon moved to the Basic Objects resolution, which betrayed all his hopes and aspirations for his nation, including his faith in a confederation once the bitterness was over, and to the renegade Maududi's persecution of the Ahmedis, which led to a sentence of death for several crimes, a sentence never executed.

As a staunch admirer of Jinnah, not a blind admirer, but one who sees his greatness and his vision with admiration, while saddened at the loss of his great mind to the greater cause of south Asian progress and development for a narrow purpose which today makes no sense whatsoever, I am also wholly contemptuous of these hedge scholars who seek to co-opt him and his charismatic memory for their own narrow purposes.

A few days ago, a senior, sober, thoughtful member put up a book review on Churchill and the Muslim world; I forget the name. It was a brilliant review, by an obviously scholastically accomplished faculty member at LUMS, which might easily be described as IIM Lahore. I have already pointed out to a select few the harsh and dismissive terms in which that author deals with the illusions that our little shallow students have been hurling at us with the accompaniment of football fan vocabularies and barnyard imitations. Why @hellfire and @SarthakGanguly (whom I respect intellectually and socially as much as I detest his political alignment) bother to get into the drain to fight these battles I have yet to understand. I hope I never do.

Maududus impact both as a scholar and as a political figure were disastrous. I'll leave the religious aspect of his ideas to be torn apart later but in terms of just political idealism he was one of the delusional ones thinking that a "clergi-fied" military nexus was the way forward. In a way, he caused more damage to the internals of the armed forces.

Jinnah was a lot of things but nothing suggests that he was ever an extremist. He was a pan-Islamist but that term is badly abused as well. His idea was to ensure a prosperous future for his people and still link with the rest of the Muslim world. He did have a strong sense of identity but this switched from being a very Indian identity to a very Muslim Indian identity during the late 1920's and early 30's(one has to read Fatima Jinnah's book to get a feeler for this).

Ataturk was very Turk identity centred and Islam/God/Beliefs had little interest to him. To him, the Turk identity mattered most and the need to unify under something more than constantly squabbling scholars and sects.
 
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The whole idea of "Muslim Nationalism in South Asia" was developed by Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and the Aligarians, this idea was inspired by the political theories of John Locke, Milton and Thomas Paine .... The creation of Pakistan was indeed the culmination of a process that derived all of its sustenance from this idea/theory ..


Bitterly opposed to this idea were people like Jamaluddin Afghani and Maududi .. Afghani severely criticized Sir Syed for the rejection of the idea of Pan-Islamism by the latter, and Mullah Maududidescribed the idea of Muslim Nationalism as unlikely as a ”chaste prostitute” ... (Abul Ala Maudoodi, Mussalman Aur Maujooda Syasi Kashmakash, quoted in K. K.Aziz, The Making of Pakistan, p. 148.)




Afghani was in India from 1879 to 1883, detained in Hyderabad for his political activities against the British. He was approached by the so called Ulama to give a fatwa declaring Sir Syed a heretic. Afghani’s fatwa condemned Sir Syed as a collaborator, who threw off his religion, converted to Christianity, and claimed that all the prophets were Necharis and did not believe in God (The Fatwa was published first in Persian in 1881 in Hyderabad, then in Urdu in 1884 in Calcutta, and in Arabic in 1885 from Beirut).


We chose Afghani and Maududi over Sir Syed and Jinnah .. In Pakistan, Jinnah and Sir Syed are held in high regard, but their ideological opponents (i.e, Afghani and Maududi) are followed by the vast majority of Pakistanis ... This "contradiction" has resulted from the state-sponsored religious-chauvinistic indoctrination via distortion .

Sir Syed Ahmad Khan wrote many scholarly Islamic works in his life:

1. Al Khutbat al Ahmadiya (Life of Muhammad)
2. Aldua Wal Istajaba
3. Izalatul Ghain An Zulqurnain (Commentary on the Quran)
4. Khalaqal insaan ali mafil quran
5. Tabyīn al-kalām fī tafsīr al-torah wa al-injīl ‘alā millah al-Islām (Commentary on the Bible)

I am not denying their services to Islam or the Muslims of India, all I am asking is that how were they "the Founding Fathers of Pakistan" ??

So fighting for the struggle and freedom for the Muslims of the subcontinent doesn't equate them as forefathers of Pakistan?, how were they different from the leaders who came decades later and fought for the Muslims with the same ideals in mind?
 
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Let me come out of shock and allow me to thank you...Your posts are really informative....I have one request if you don't mind......I belong to young generation of Pakistanis and very keen of Pakistani history pre-independence and after it....

I was asking if you can refer to me what book I should study for history of Pakistan and our forefathers, which book should I take? Can you also make some threads regarding topics related to Pakistan, country's personalities, history and topics which draw Pakistanis attention generally....

Bro, I will suggest "The Murder of History" by K. K. Aziz for starters

Many young people in this country are thankful to him for liberating them from the stranglehold of the myopic and slanted histories and ideological narratives that they were indoctrinated with at school and college.

Sir Syed Ahmad Khan wrote many scholarly Islamic works in his life:

1. Al Khutbat al Ahmadiya (Life of Muhammad)
2. Aldua Wal Istajaba
3. Izalatul Ghain An Zulqurnain (Commentary on the Quran)
4. Khalaqal insaan ali mafil quran
5. Tabyīn al-kalām fī tafsīr al-torah wa al-injīl ‘alā millah al-Islām (Commentary on the Bible)

http://mrjpk.com/wp-content/uploads/Issue 8/01- Sir Syed Ahmad Khan and his Bible.pdf



Sir Syed Ahmed Khan was a liberal Muslim who advocated rationalism and rejected traditionalist Islam. He was branded heretic by almost all of the Orthodox Ulema. But here we are not discussing his religious beliefs in general, but the idea of Indian Muslim Nationalism (and TNT) that led to the creation of Pakistan. This idea/theory was inspired by the writings of western philosophers and political thinkers.... The orthodox Ulema rejected this idea outright.



So fighting for the struggle and freedom for the Muslims of the subcontinent doesn't equate them as forefathers of Pakistan?, how were they different from the leaders who came decades later and fought for the Muslims with the same ideals in mind?


No, it does not. Pakistan is a Modern Nation State founded in 1947. "Nation State" itself is a modern western concept. Pan Islamists and Traditionalists have always rejected this idea.
 
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Sir Syed Ahmed Khan was a liberal Muslim who advocated rationalism and rejected traditionalist Islam. He was branded heretic by almost all of the Orthodox Ulema. But here we are not discussing his religious beliefs in general, but the idea of Indian Muslim Nationalism (and TNT) that led to the creation of Pakistan. This idea/theory was inspired by the writings of western philosophers and political thinkers.... The orthodox Ulema rejected this idea outright.

Sir Syed Ahmed Khan was not a secular like you are claiming, he encouraged rationale and reason which was the basis of tradition Islam just like Shah Walliullah he worked and encouraged and tried to empower Muslims to achieve education and hindsight, many traditionalist Ulema rejected him because they initially viewed him as a traitor for siding with the British after the 1857 events, and his reasons for the Muslim to learn English and western style educations which was essential at the time because the Muslims had fallen but the old Ulema still clinged to old days when the Muslims ruled the subcontinent, but Sir Syed Ahmed Khan himself was not a secular nor was his rationale inspired by western philosophers and political thinkers, on the contrary he used to argue against western Christian missionaries and philosophers and defended Islam on many occasions, during one of his visits to London he came across a book on the life of Muhammad by a western philosopher and was shocked by the inaccuracies and errors present within it and immediately wrote his own rebuttal, many western educated Muslims at the time influence by western philosophers were thinking of leaving Islam but after reading the works on the life of Muhammad and the commentary on the Quran by Sir Syed Ahmed Khan they chose other wise and wrote letters thanking him, later in his life he used to keep these letters as trophy's and cry for the work he had done for the Muslims of the Subcontinent.

You really know how to swing history to your favor don't you, I am a Sir Syed university graduate and have dozens of his books in my house, like you are going to teach me his works and who he was, what he believed in and stood for, one of my family relatives (Zakir Ali Khan google him) was a graduate from Aligarh Muslim university.

No, it does not. Pakistan is a Modern Nation State founded in 1947. "Nation State" itself is a modern western concept. Pan Islamists and Traditionalists have always rejected this idea.

Nope Pakistan is a Muslim state founded on the ideology of Islam and by Islamic ideology I mean expanding borders to encompass that very concept, your secularism which has no basis on the history of the Muslims of the subcontinent weakens Pakistan to nothing more than a moth eaten state while Islamic ideology makes her a potential empire.
 
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Bro, I will suggest "The Murder of History" by K. K. Aziz for starters

Many young people in this country are thankful to him for liberating them from the stranglehold of the myopic and slanted histories and ideological narratives that they were indoctrinated with at school and college.
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Much thanks 2 you :-)
 
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Much thanks 2 you :-)

Brother I just proved in one of my responses that the Quaid was not against the Khilafat movement and viewed the potential dissolution of the Khilafah as an attack on Muslim faith, and yet if you want to follow his cooked up history then be my guest, my job was to show you the path which I did but you follow it or follow some other path is your own decision good luck.
 
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Sir Syed Ahmed Khan was not a secular like you are claiming, he encouraged rationale and reason which was the basis of tradition Islam just like Shah Walliullah he worked and encouraged and tried to empower Muslims to achieve education and hindsight, many traditionalist Ulema rejected him because they initially viewed him as a traitor for siding with the British after the 1857 events, and his reasons for the Muslim to learn English and western style educations which was essential at the time because the Muslims had fallen but the old Ulema still clinged to old days when the Muslims ruled the subcontinent, but Sir Syed Ahmed Khan himself was not a secular nor was his rationale inspired by western philosophers and political thinkers, on the contrary he used to argue against western Christian missionaries and philosophers and defended Islam on many occasions, during one of his visits to London he came across a book on the life of Muhammad by a western philosopher and was shocked by the inaccuracies and errors present within it and immediately wrote his own rebuttal, many western educated Muslims at the time influence by western philosophers were thinking of leaving Islam but after reading the works on the life of Muhammad and the commentary on the Quran of Sir Syed Ahmed Khan they chose other wise, later in his life he used to keep these letters as trophy's and cry for the work he had done for the Muslims of the Subcontinent.

You really know how to swing history to you favor don't you, I am a Sir Syed university graduate and have dozens of his books in my house, like you are going to teach me his works and who he was, what he believed in and stood for, one of my family relatives (Zakir Ali Khan google him) was a graduate from Aligarh Muslim university.


And when did I say that Sir Syed Ahmed Khan was a secular ???

I said he was a liberal Muslim ...

He, in a lecture given by him before a large and very influential audience of Muslims in Lucknow, on 18th December, 1887, said :

" ..... Gentlemen, I am not a Conservative, I am a great Liberal.... "


As for your claim that the orthodox Ulema changed their opinion about Sir Syed when the latter wrote a commentary on the Holy Qur'an, Do you know that Sir Syed rejected Hadith and his commentary on Quran is based purely on logic ? His interpretations are so "liberal" that even today many publishers refuse to print his commentary ??

You really need to do your home work first if you want to discuss such serious topics, mate


Nope Pakistan is a Muslim state founded on the ideology of Islam......


If Pakistan was being founded on the ideology of Islam, then why was the entire Muslim religious establishment in India opposed to Jinnah and his Pakistan movement ??



The universal opposition of virtually every significant religious group in Undivided India, indeed the entire Muslim religious establishment to Jinnah`s Pakistan movement and the Muslim League cannot be reconciled with any idea of religious origins of Pakistan. This is just one of many paradoxes that anyone who thinks of that the true reason for the creation of Pakistan was to establish a religious 'Islamic state', must unravel.


The most secular and non communal institution in South Asian polity(i.e. The Communist Party of India), on the other hand, was wholeheartedly supporting the Pakistan Movement in 1940's ....

How would you explain this ? ..

Brother I just proved in one of my responses that the Quaid was not against the Khilafat movement and viewed the potential dissolution of the Khilafah as an attack on Muslim faith, and yet if you want to follow his cooked up history then be my guest, my job was to show you the path which I did but you follow it or follow some other path is your own decision good luck.

You haven't proved anything my friend except your own ignorance and unwillingness to accept/understand anything that goes against your pre-conceived notions.

I suggest "The Murder of History" by K. K. Aziz to you as well. Just read it with an open mind. That may help
 
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Brother I just proved in one of my responses that the Quaid was not against the Khilafat movement and viewed the potential dissolution of the Khilafah as an attack on Muslim faith, and yet if you want to follow his cooked up history then be my guest, my job was to show you the path which I did but you follow it or follow some other path is your own decision good luck.

Thanks for your invite. Much appreciated....
 
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If Pakistan was being founded on the ideology of Islam, then why was the entire Muslim religious establishment in India opposed to Jinnah and his Pakistan movement ??

That is not true, if the entire religious establishment was against Jinnah and the Pakistan movement (just like to point out that the Quaid was not the creator of the Pakistan movement, he was the inheritor and made it a reality but not the creator, before his famous 14 points to congress he was against the movement), then how did Muslim league sweep the floor in the 1946 elections in almost every single Muslim majority areas?, how were Muslim families like my own willing to leave all the wealth and property they had to travel to Pakistan while the nationalist and secular Indian Muslims stayed behind?, also the founders of the Khilafat movement the Ali brothers were part of the Muslim League and were with the Quaid fighting for Pakistan, equating every single religious scholars being against Pakistan is an extreme biased historical view, and before you start projecting your own mindset onto the Quaid, tell me this his sister and mother of Pakistan Fatima Jinnah, why didn't she talked about his secular views later when Pakistan was created.

You haven't proved anything my friend

You claimed that the Quaid was against the Khilafat Movement while I quoted him directly stating that the dissolution of the Ottoman Khilafah is an attack on Muslim faith, I proved you wrong on this issue.

“First came the Rowlatt Bill — accompanied by the Punjab atrocities — and then came the spoliation of the Ottoman Empire and the Khilafat. One attacks our liberty and the other our faith…” - Quaid-e-Azam

Regarding Sir Syed Ahmed Khan rejecting hadiths, I will look into it.
 
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