What's new

Pakistan, Turkey friendship rooted in history: Ayaz

Jinnah (and Iqbal too) didn't want Western Secularism, He wanted to establish a modern Islamic democratic welfare state where all citizens. in accordance with the Islamic fundamental principles of equality and liberty, would be free to practice their religion without any interference from the state (thus making that Muslim State essentially secular in character).
Bollocks!

Secularism isn't western or eastern just like democracy isn't Islamic, Christian or Pagan. They are the product of collective human experience and intelligence. They're something that we came up with after millions of years of trial and error. Something that humanity found to be much more profitable and practical than the alternatives.

Pity seeing you still clinging on to those romanticised delusions you helped me get rid of.
 
Bollocks!

Secularism isn't western or eastern just like democracy isn't Islamic, Christian or Pagan. They are the product of collective human experience and intelligence. They're something that we came up with after millions of years of trial and error. Something that humanity found to be much more profitable and practical than the alternatives.

Pity seeing you still clinging on to those romanticised delusions you helped me get rid of.

Be careful of this guy @Azlan Haider

I call him a lawyer ... A devil's advocate he is ..... twists and turns faster than I can pronounce the words
 
Bollocks!

Secularism isn't western or eastern just like democracy isn't Islamic, Christian or Pagan. They are the product of collective human experience and intelligence. They're something that we came up with after millions of years of trial and error. Something that humanity found to be much more profitable and practical than the alternatives.

Pity seeing you still clinging on to those romanticised delusions you helped me get rid of.


It's not about what you believe in or what I believe, it's about what the masses out there believe in. And the vast majority of Pakistani Muslims reject secularism because they believe that it is a "Western" concept. And they believe that all western concepts are anti Islamic.
 
It's not about what you believe in or what I believe, it's about what the masses out there believe in. And the vast majority of Pakistani Muslims reject secularism because they believe that it is a "Western" concept. And they believe that all western concepts are anti Islamic.
And now you're simply shifting the blame.

Aaj sab nai mujhe disappoint karnay ki kasam kha rakhi hai kia?

Be careful of this guy @Azlan Haider

I call him a lawyer ... A devil's advocate he is ..... twists and turns faster than I can pronounce the words
What are you going on about?
 
And now you're simply shifting the blame.

I am not shifting the blame, my friend. I am trying to make you understand that Jinnah was absolutely clear on what he was doing, and as YLH describes it, he was using that language as that was the only language the millions of illiterate Indian Musalmaans understood; the language of religion.... And unfortunately, even today, millions of (otherwise) educated Pakistani Muslims only understand that one language. That's why I am using it
 
I am not shifting the blame, my friend. I am trying to make you understand that Jinnah was absolutely clear on what he was doing, and as YLH describes it, he was using that language as that was the only language the millions of illiterate Indian Musalmaans understood; the language of religion..
Sure. But why still use that language after the successful partition and his appointment as a Governor General? Why not be open about secularism? Why not use the term in his speeches regarding the constitution? We're going around in circles now.
 
Sure. But why still use that language after the successful partition and his appointment as a Governor General? Why not be open about secularism? Why not use the term in his speeches regarding the constitution? We're going around in circles now.

The first thing this nation got after the death of Jinnah was "Objective Resolution" of 1949; a perfect antithesis of Jinnah`s vision ...

Once Pakistan was created, Jinnah tried to open the membership of ML to all citizens of Pakistan (irrespective of religion) or alternately dissolve it as it had achieved its goal .. But the opportunists in the ML knew that 70 years old Jinnah with serious health issues was not going to survive long and all such attempts by Jinnah were thwarted by them ... Jinnah who had been a Bombayite , had no similar roots in Karachi, he became helpless. Ajeet Jawed and Yasser Latif have written in detail about this. I will post about it when I have time. Even his 11th August speech was censored.

And after the Death of Jinnah in 1948, there was no one who would oppose them ... The fact is, there was not a single person in ML who could replace Jinnah as an undisputed leader of ML or Pakistan. And this was the first time "Islam" was brought into politics by Muslim Leaguers ( hoping to use it as a political tool) .. "Prostitution of Islam to meet political ends" as President Iskander Mirza described it later !!
 
Last edited:
“First came the Rowlatt Bill — accompanied by the Punjab atrocities — and then came the spoliation of the Ottoman Empire and the Khilafat. One attacks our liberty and the other our faith…” - Quaid-e-Azam

Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah was not against a mass Muslim movement from the subcontinent in order to try to save the Ottoman Khilafa, initially during the 1918's and 1919's the Muslim League was very active and at the fore fronts in order try to jump start the movement with many conferences and meetings, it was Gandhi's non cooperation movement and the convergence of interest from the 1920's onward that the Quaid and Muslim league as a whole took a back seat from the movement, and Ali bothers who then took to the forefronts since they were the founders, keep in mind also that the brothers were part of the Muslim league and were with the Quaid later when the struggle for Pakistan was at full swing.

“… the weapon will not destroy the British empire… it is neither logical nor is it politically sound or wise, nor practically capable of being put in execution.” - Quaid-e-Azam

The Quaid knew that with the convergence of interest and a freedom movement jointly started by Gandhi, the Muslims of the subcontinent were not looking out for their own self interest and if this non Cooperation movement was successful and the British were successfully pushed out of the Subcontinent the resultant would be an overwhelming majority Hindu rule over the Muslims.

Their are many posters here who are presenting their own world views and hindsight onto the Quaid, keep in mind that Pakistan and the ideology of Pakistan was the resultant of over two century of Muslim struggle for freedom, at one point in time (1910's) even the Quaid himself was against the creation of Pakistan and was convinced by others, during the early 1930's he again was disillusioned and disheartened because of no progress and temporarily left politics and was again convinced by others to come back and fight for Pakistan, giving credit albeit without him there would have been no Pakistan but still only giving credit to one man is highly criminal and biased historical views.

Quaid-e-Azam and Allama Iqbal were the final resultant optimum leaders for the Muslims of the Subcontinent, there were many forefathers who came before them who laid the foundations of Pakistan.

@war&peace
 
Last edited:
..... only giving credit to one man is highly criminal and biased historical views.

Quaid-e-Azam and Allama Iqbal were the final resultant optimum leaders for the Muslims of the Subcontinent, there were many forefathers who came before them who laid the foundations of Pakistan.

Can you please name a few of those "many forefathers" who laid the foundation of Pakistan before Iqbal and Jinnah
 
Can you please name a few of those "many forefathers" who laid the foundation of Pakistan before Iqbal and Jinnah

Shah Waliullah, Syed Ahmed Shaheed, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, Maulana Shaukat Ali, Maulana Muhammad Ali, Maulana Muhammad Ali Jouhar, Chaudry Rehmat Ali, Allama Iqbal, Quaid-e-Azam, Liaquat Ali Khan etc

I know what you are trying to do, stop imposing your own mindset onto the leaders and founders of Pakistan.
 
Last edited:
Shah Waliullah, Syed Ahmed Shaheed, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, Maulana Shaukat Ali, Maulana Muhammad Ali, Maulana Muhammad Ali Jouhar, Chaudry Rehmat Ali, Allama Iqbal, Quaid-e-Azam, Liaquat Ali Khan etc

I know what you are trying to do, stop imposing your own mindset onto the leaders and founders of Pakistan.

So you believe that Shah Waliullah (d.1762) and Syed Ahmed Shaheed (d.1831) were Founding Fathers of Pakistan !!

I wonder why didn't you mention invaders like Muhammad Bin Qasim and looters like Ghaznavi and Abdali as the Founding Fathers of Pakistan ..
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom