Pakistan, Turkey friendship rooted in history: Ayaz

[IceCold]

Yes Jinnah mother tongue was Gujarati. I believe its the same case with member @IceCold as well.

Sorry i didnt get you. Are you suggesting i am Gujarati?

 

[CriticalThinker02]

Jinnah opening membership to non muslims doesnt prove Jinnah didnt want Islamic socialism for his country.
Islam was brought in by Jinnah himself and his (last) speech on state bank inauguration talks about it. The narrative become the basis for Objective Resolution not petty ML politics.

Funny isn't it, on one hand I am and you here as well are directly quoting the Quaid on his views against western idealism and pro pan Islamic views and yet on the opposite side we read long fairy tale stories belittling the Quaid to nothing more than a westernized secularist, but no no no he was censored and silenced by those who wanted an Islamic democracy and his sister who wanted to expose Quaids pro western views was also silenced and killed off 26 years later, and her disillusionment later was not based on the incompetency of the political leaders who followed him but strictly based on the Pakistani establishment failing to implement a strict pro western secular state.

"Mr. Governor, Directors of State Bank, Ladies and Gentlemen.

The opening of the State Bank of Pakistan symbolises the sovereignty of our State in the financial sphere and I am very glad to be here today to perform the opening ceremony. It was not considered feasible to start a Bank of our own simultaneously with the coming into being of Pakistan in August last year. A good deal of preparatory work must precede the inauguration of an institution responsible for such technical and delicate work as note issue and banking. To allow for this preparation, it was provided, under the Pakistan Monetary System and Reserve Bank Order, 1947, that the Reserve Bank of India should continue to be the currency and banking authority of Pakistan till the 30th September, 1948. Later on it was felt that it would be in the best interests of our State if the Reserve Bank of India were relieved of its functions in Pakistan, as early as possible. The State of transfer of these functions to a Pakistan agency was consequently advanced by three months in agreement with the Government of India and the Reserve Bank. It was at the same time decided to establish a Central Bank of Pakistan in preference to any other agency for managing our currency and banking. This decision left very little time for the small band of trained personnel in this field in Pakistan to complete the preliminaries and they have by their untiring effort and hard work completed their task by the due date which is very creditable to them, and I wish to record a note of our appreciation of their labours.

As you have observed, Mr. Governor in undivided India banking was kept a close preserve of non-Muslims and their migration from Western Pakistan has caused a good deal of dislocation in the economic life of our young State. In order that the wheels of commerce and industry should run smoothly, it is imperative that the vacuum caused by the exodus of non-Muslims should be filled without delay. I am glad to note that schemes for training Pakistan nationals in banking are in hand. I will watch their progress with interest and I am confident that the State Bank will receive the co-operation of all concerned including the banks and Universities in pushing them forward. Banking will provide a new and wide field in which the genius of our young men can find full play. I am sure that they will come forward in large numbers to take advantage of the training facilities which are proposed to be provided. While doing so, they will not only be benefiting themselves but also contributing to the well-being of our State.

I need hardly dilate on the important role that the State Bank will have to play in regulating the economic life of our country. The monetary policy of the bank will have a direct bearing on our trade and commerce, both inside Pakistan as well as with the outside world and it is only to be desired that your policy should encourage maximum production and a free flow of trade. The monetary policy pursued during the war years contributed, in no small measure, to our present day economic problems. The abnormal rise in the cost of living has hit the poorer sections of society including those with fixed incomes very hard indeed and is responsible to a great extent for the prevailing unrest in the country. The policy of the Pakistan Government is to stabilise prices at a level that would be fair to the producer, as well as the consumer. I hope your efforts will be directed in the same direction in order to tackle this crucial problem with success.

I shall watch with keenness the work of your Research Organization in evolving banking practices compatible with Islamic ideas of social and economic life. The economic system of the West has created almost insoluble problems for humanity and to many of us it appears that only a miracle can save it from disaster that is not facing the world. It has failed to do justice between man and man and to eradicate friction from the international field. On the contrary, it was largely responsible for the two world wars in the last half century. The Western world, in spite of its advantages, of mechanization and industrial efficiency is today in a worse mess than ever before in history. The adoption of Western economic theory and practice will not help us in achieving our goal of creating a happy and contended people. We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind.

May the Sate Bank of Pakistan prosper and fulfil the high ideals which have been set as its goal.

In the end I thank you, Mr. Governor, for the warm welcome given to me by you and your colleagues, and the distinguished guests who have graced this occasion as a mark of their good wishes and the honour your have done me in inviting me to perform this historic opening ceremony of the State Bank which I feel will develop into one of our greatest national institutions and play its part fully throughout the world."

Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah
1st July, 1948
​

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"We have achieved our cherished goal of freedom and have established Pakistan as an independent, sovereign State, fifth largest in the world. That freedom can never be attained by a nation without suffering and sacrifice has been amply borne out by the recent tragic happenings in this subcontinent. We are in the midst of unparalleled difficulties and untold sufferings; we have been through dark days of apprehension and anguish; but I can say with confidence that with courage and self-reliance and by the Grace of God we shall emerge triumphant.

Some people might think that the acceptance of the June 3 Plan was a mistake on the part of the Muslim League. I would like to tell them that the consequences of any other alternative would have been too disastrous to imagine. On our side we proceeded to implement this plan with a clean conscience and honest intentions. Time and history will prove that. On the other hand, history will also record its verdict on those whose treachery and machinations let loose forces of disorder and disruption in this subcontinent causing death of lakhs, enormous destruction of property and bringing about suffering and misery to many million by uprooting them from their homes and hearths and all that was dear to them. The systematic massacre of defenseless and innocent people puts to shame even the most heinous atrocities committed by the worst tyrant known to history. We have been the victims of a deeply-laid and well-planned conspiracy executed with utter disregard of the elementary principle of honesty, chivalry and honor. We thank Providence for giving us courage and faith to fight these forces of evil. If we take our inspiration and guidance from the Holy Quran, the final victory, I once again say, will be ours.

Do not for a moment imagine that your enemies can ever succeed in their designs. But at the same time do not make light of the situation facing you. Search your hearts and whether you have done your part in the construction of this new and mighty State.

Do not be over whelmed by the enormity of the task. There is many an example in history of young nations building themselves up by sheer determination and force of character. You are made of sterling material and are second to none. Why should you also not succeed like many others, like your own forefathers. You have only to develop the spirit of the "Mujahids". You are a nation whose history is replete with people of wonderful grit, character and heroism. Live up to your traditions and add to it another chapter of glory.

All I require of you now is that everyone of us to whom this message reaches must vow to himself and be prepared to sacrifice his all, if necessary, in building up Pakistan as a bulwark of Islam and as one of the greatest nations whose ideal is peace within and peace. Your immediate task is the rehabilitation of millions of our distressed and unfortunate brethren who are either already with us or who have still to join us in Pakistan, bereft of all they possessed or had in this world. The least we now can do for them is to receive them as our own brethren. No decent or sane person should consider that they are unwelcome burden thrust on us. Save all you can and give towards the relief of these victims of bestiality and vandalism who have suffered all this for the sole reason that they are Muslims.

Along with this, keep up your morale. Do not be afraid of death. Our religion teaches us to be always prepared for death. We should face it bravely to save the honor of Pakistan and Islam. There is no better salvation for a Muslim than the death of a martyr for a righteous cause.

I would also impress upon every member of this State, particularly our youth, to show the right spirit of devotion, courage and fortitude, to give a lead to the others and to set a nobler and higher example for those who may follow us and the coming generations.

Remember that the scrupulous maintenance and enforcement of law and order are the prerequisites of all progress. The tenets of Islam enjoin on every Mussalman to give protection to his neighbors and to the minorities regardless of caste and creed. Despite the treatment, which is being meted out to the Muslim minorities in India, we must make it a matter of our prestige and honor to safeguard the lives of the minority communities and to create a sense of security among them. I would like to impress upon every Mussalman, who has at heart the welfare and the prosperity of Pakistan, to avoid retaliation and to exercise restraint, because retaliation and violation of law and order will ultimately result in weakening the very foundations of the edifice you have cherished all these years to erect.

Do your duty and have faith in God. There is no power on earth that can undo Pakistan. It has come to stay. Our deeds are proving to the world that we are in the right and I can assure you that the sympathies of the world, particularly of the Islamic countries, are with you. We in turn are grateful to every nation who has stretched out to us its hand of help and friendliness.

In the end, I once again appeal to the good sense of every subject and citizen of our State not to take law and order into his own hands but so to behave and act as to be a pillar of strength to his Government and leaders who are sincerely doing their best to put an end to the miseries and hardships of our unfortunate brethren seeking shelter with us, and battling against grave danger and menace which is facing us."

Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah
30th October 1947
​

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@Joe Shearer Sir you and your colleagues here can continue to ignore my posts or maybe present more fairy tales stories and try to pass them off as historical facts, won't change history and ideology of Pakistan in any shape and form.

@PaklovesTurkiye

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

@Joe Shearer Sir you and your colleagues here can continue to ignore my posts or maybe present more fairy tales stories and try to pass them off as historical facts

Do you believe that A man who drinks, enjoys alcohol party , Enjoying western habits, Western cloths, western foods, western dance), Secular in nature will tell you about today's Mullah Islam.
He was secular in nature, Open your mind and read the thread . Jinnah's whole life testifies , speaking loudly, saying everyone, "Yes I am Secular"

While about his personal life, do you know Jinnah's will?
When Quaid died , it was necessary for his sister Miss Fatima Jinnah to declare him a Shia in order to inherit his property as per Jinnah’s will.

yet he was against to bring religion in politics. He wanted secular Pakistan, One of the reason he was opposed by many.

 

[CriticalThinker02]

Do you believe that A man who drinks, enjoys alcohol party , Enjoying western habits, Western cloths, western foods, western dance), Secular in nature will tell you about today's Mullah Islam.
He was secular in nature, Open your mind and read the thread . Jinnah's whole life testifies , speaking loudly, saying everyone, "Yes I am Secular"

While about his personal life, do you know Jinnah's will?
When Quaid died , it was necessary for his sister Miss Fatima Jinnah to declare him a Shia in order to inherit his property as per Jinnah’s will.

yet he was against to bring religion in politics. He wanted secular Pakistan.

lol than can you please elaborate on who possessed Quaid's mind and made him say those statements within his speeches? I would love to hear your stories and while you are at it also please explain the reasons why he cut off ties and relations with his daughter when she drifted away from Islam?, he might have enjoyed a western lifestyle but that doesn't mean he was vehemently against pan Islamic view or abandoned Islamic views and values and became a pro western secularist, that is your own modern invented history, his words speaks otherwise.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

please explain the reasons why he cut off ties and relations with his daughter when she drifted away from Islam?,

Because, It was jinnah desire to teach her in school and complete her studies, but she she was away at school most of the time and came often home few times. She used that freedom in negative way. Even dina mother was non Muslim too, but they were not in favor of using freedom in negative way.
Then Dina married with indian businessman Neville. Distance became too wide, that Jinnah said that she was not his daughter any more.
It was dina fault, that she used that freedom in negative way. i.e During school times, not coming at home. She disconnected herself with parent Long times ago.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Jinnah opening membership to non muslims doesnt prove Jinnah didnt want Islamic socialism for his country.
Islam was brought in by Jinnah himself and his (last) speech on state bank inauguration talks about it. The narrative become the basis for Objective Resolution not petty ML politics.

1) The resolution was debated for five days.

Hindu members of the Constitutional Assembly argued that the Objectives Resolution differed with Jinnah's view in all the basic points.

Sris Chandra Chattopadhyaya said: "What I hear in this (Objectives) Resolution is not the voice of the great creator of Pakistan - the Quaid-i-Azam, nor even that of the Prime Minister of Pakistan the Honorable Mr. Liaquat Ali Khan, but of the Ulema of the land." [ Constituent Assembly debate March 12, 1949]

Birat Chandra Mandal declared that Jinnah had "unequivocally said that Pakistan will be a secular state." [ Constituent Assembly debate March 9, 1949]

Bhupendra Kumar Datta went a step further: ...were this resolution to come before this house within the life-time of the Great Creator of Pakistan, the Quaid-i-Azam, it would not have come in its present shape...." [ Constituent Assembly debates March 8, 1949]





2) According to Muhammad Munir, the Chief Justice of the Federal Court, the terms of the Objectives Resolution differ in all the basic points of the Quaid-i-Azam's views e.g:

a). The Quaid-i-Azam has said that in the new state sovereignty would rest with the people. The Resolution starts with the statement that sovereignty rests with Allah. This concept negates the basic idea of modern democracy that there are no limits on the legislative power of a representative assembly.

b). There is a reference to the protection of the minorities of their right to worship and practice their religion, whereas the Quaid-i-Azam had stated that there would be no minorities on the basis of religion.

c) The distinction between religious majorities and minorities takes away from the minority, the right of equality, which again is a basic idea of modern democracy.

d) The provision relating to Muslims being enabled to lead their life according to Islam is opposed to the conception of a secular state.



3) The Ulema themselves claimed that the Quaid-i-Azam's conception of a modern national state....became obsolete with the passing of the Objectives Resolution on 12th March 1949. (Munir Report p-203)



--------


So, The Non Muslims in the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, The Chief Justice of Pakistan and the Ulema of Pakistan (all of them) admitted that The Objectives Resolution was against the vision of Muhammad Ali Jinnah.

But here you are trying to tell us that Jinnah's own narrative became the basis of Objectives Resolution !! ??

Funny isn't it, on one hand I am and you here as well are directly quoting the Quaid on his views against western idealism and pro pan Islamic views and yet on the opposite side we read long fairy tale stories belittling the Quaid to nothing more than a westernized secularist, but no no no he was censored and silenced by those who wanted an Islamic democracy and his sister who wanted to expose Quaids pro western views was also silenced and killed off 26 years later, and her disillusionment later was not based on the incompetency of the political leaders who followed him but strictly based on the Pakistani establishment failing to implement a strict pro western secular state.

"Mr. Governor, Directors of State Bank, Ladies and Gentlemen.

The opening of the State Bank of Pakistan symbolises the sovereignty of our State in the financial sphere and I am very glad to be here today to perform the opening ceremony. It was not considered feasible to start a Bank of our own simultaneously with the coming into being of Pakistan in August last year. A good deal of preparatory work must precede the inauguration of an institution responsible for such technical and delicate work as note issue and banking. To allow for this preparation, it was provided, under the Pakistan Monetary System and Reserve Bank Order, 1947, that the Reserve Bank of India should continue to be the currency and banking authority of Pakistan till the 30th September, 1948. Later on it was felt that it would be in the best interests of our State if the Reserve Bank of India were relieved of its functions in Pakistan, as early as possible. The State of transfer of these functions to a Pakistan agency was consequently advanced by three months in agreement with the Government of India and the Reserve Bank. It was at the same time decided to establish a Central Bank of Pakistan in preference to any other agency for managing our currency and banking. This decision left very little time for the small band of trained personnel in this field in Pakistan to complete the preliminaries and they have by their untiring effort and hard work completed their task by the due date which is very creditable to them, and I wish to record a note of our appreciation of their labours.

As you have observed, Mr. Governor in undivided India banking was kept a close preserve of non-Muslims and their migration from Western Pakistan has caused a good deal of dislocation in the economic life of our young State. In order that the wheels of commerce and industry should run smoothly, it is imperative that the vacuum caused by the exodus of non-Muslims should be filled without delay. I am glad to note that schemes for training Pakistan nationals in banking are in hand. I will watch their progress with interest and I am confident that the State Bank will receive the co-operation of all concerned including the banks and Universities in pushing them forward. Banking will provide a new and wide field in which the genius of our young men can find full play. I am sure that they will come forward in large numbers to take advantage of the training facilities which are proposed to be provided. While doing so, they will not only be benefiting themselves but also contributing to the well-being of our State.

I need hardly dilate on the important role that the State Bank will have to play in regulating the economic life of our country. The monetary policy of the bank will have a direct bearing on our trade and commerce, both inside Pakistan as well as with the outside world and it is only to be desired that your policy should encourage maximum production and a free flow of trade. The monetary policy pursued during the war years contributed, in no small measure, to our present day economic problems. The abnormal rise in the cost of living has hit the poorer sections of society including those with fixed incomes very hard indeed and is responsible to a great extent for the prevailing unrest in the country. The policy of the Pakistan Government is to stabilise prices at a level that would be fair to the producer, as well as the consumer. I hope your efforts will be directed in the same direction in order to tackle this crucial problem with success.

I shall watch with keenness the work of your Research Organization in evolving banking practices compatible with Islamic ideas of social and economic life. The economic system of the West has created almost insoluble problems for humanity and to many of us it appears that only a miracle can save it from disaster that is not facing the world. It has failed to do justice between man and man and to eradicate friction from the international field. On the contrary, it was largely responsible for the two world wars in the last half century. The Western world, in spite of its advantages, of mechanization and industrial efficiency is today in a worse mess than ever before in history. The adoption of Western economic theory and practice will not help us in achieving our goal of creating a happy and contended people. We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind.

May the Sate Bank of Pakistan prosper and fulfil the high ideals which have been set as its goal.

In the end I thank you, Mr. Governor, for the warm welcome given to me by you and your colleagues, and the distinguished guests who have graced this occasion as a mark of their good wishes and the honour your have done me in inviting me to perform this historic opening ceremony of the State Bank which I feel will develop into one of our greatest national institutions and play its part fully throughout the world."

Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah
1st July, 1948
​

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"We have achieved our cherished goal of freedom and have established Pakistan as an independent, sovereign State, fifth largest in the world. That freedom can never be attained by a nation without suffering and sacrifice has been amply borne out by the recent tragic happenings in this subcontinent. We are in the midst of unparalleled difficulties and untold sufferings; we have been through dark days of apprehension and anguish; but I can say with confidence that with courage and self-reliance and by the Grace of God we shall emerge triumphant.

Some people might think that the acceptance of the June 3 Plan was a mistake on the part of the Muslim League. I would like to tell them that the consequences of any other alternative would have been too disastrous to imagine. On our side we proceeded to implement this plan with a clean conscience and honest intentions. Time and history will prove that. On the other hand, history will also record its verdict on those whose treachery and machinations let loose forces of disorder and disruption in this subcontinent causing death of lakhs, enormous destruction of property and bringing about suffering and misery to many million by uprooting them from their homes and hearths and all that was dear to them. The systematic massacre of defenseless and innocent people puts to shame even the most heinous atrocities committed by the worst tyrant known to history. We have been the victims of a deeply-laid and well-planned conspiracy executed with utter disregard of the elementary principle of honesty, chivalry and honor. We thank Providence for giving us courage and faith to fight these forces of evil. If we take our inspiration and guidance from the Holy Quran, the final victory, I once again say, will be ours.

Do not for a moment imagine that your enemies can ever succeed in their designs. But at the same time do not make light of the situation facing you. Search your hearts and whether you have done your part in the construction of this new and mighty State.

Do not be over whelmed by the enormity of the task. There is many an example in history of young nations building themselves up by sheer determination and force of character. You are made of sterling material and are second to none. Why should you also not succeed like many others, like your own forefathers. You have only to develop the spirit of the "Mujahids". You are a nation whose history is replete with people of wonderful grit, character and heroism. Live up to your traditions and add to it another chapter of glory.

All I require of you now is that everyone of us to whom this message reaches must vow to himself and be prepared to sacrifice his all, if necessary, in building up Pakistan as a bulwark of Islam and as one of the greatest nations whose ideal is peace within and peace. Your immediate task is the rehabilitation of millions of our distressed and unfortunate brethren who are either already with us or who have still to join us in Pakistan, bereft of all they possessed or had in this world. The least we now can do for them is to receive them as our own brethren. No decent or sane person should consider that they are unwelcome burden thrust on us. Save all you can and give towards the relief of these victims of bestiality and vandalism who have suffered all this for the sole reason that they are Muslims.

Along with this, keep up your morale. Do not be afraid of death. Our religion teaches us to be always prepared for death. We should face it bravely to save the honor of Pakistan and Islam. There is no better salvation for a Muslim than the death of a martyr for a righteous cause.

I would also impress upon every member of this State, particularly our youth, to show the right spirit of devotion, courage and fortitude, to give a lead to the others and to set a nobler and higher example for those who may follow us and the coming generations.

Remember that the scrupulous maintenance and enforcement of law and order are the prerequisites of all progress. The tenets of Islam enjoin on every Mussalman to give protection to his neighbors and to the minorities regardless of caste and creed. Despite the treatment, which is being meted out to the Muslim minorities in India, we must make it a matter of our prestige and honor to safeguard the lives of the minority communities and to create a sense of security among them. I would like to impress upon every Mussalman, who has at heart the welfare and the prosperity of Pakistan, to avoid retaliation and to exercise restraint, because retaliation and violation of law and order will ultimately result in weakening the very foundations of the edifice you have cherished all these years to erect.

Do your duty and have faith in God. There is no power on earth that can undo Pakistan. It has come to stay. Our deeds are proving to the world that we are in the right and I can assure you that the sympathies of the world, particularly of the Islamic countries, are with you. We in turn are grateful to every nation who has stretched out to us its hand of help and friendliness.

In the end, I once again appeal to the good sense of every subject and citizen of our State not to take law and order into his own hands but so to behave and act as to be a pillar of strength to his Government and leaders who are sincerely doing their best to put an end to the miseries and hardships of our unfortunate brethren seeking shelter with us, and battling against grave danger and menace which is facing us."

Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah
30th October 1947
​

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Joe Shearer Sir you and your colleagues here can continue to ignore my posts or maybe present more fairy tales stories and try to pass them off as historical facts, won't change history and ideology of Pakistan in any shape and form.

@PaklovesTurkiye

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...ed-in-history-ayaz.446122/page-7#post-8621875

 

[Hellfire]

@Azlan Haider That is why I had posted about the 'Islamisation' of education as a state policy under General Zia-ul-Haq. By that, of course, I mean 'suiting a desired narrative'!

Astounding!

You know what is most funny right now? The "Bharti Brigade" (as someone had posted earlier) also defending the Quaid-i-Azam!!!

 

[M. Sarmad]

@Azlan Haider That is why I had posted about the 'Islamisation' of education as a state policy under General Zia-ul-Haq. By that, of course, I mean 'suiting a desired narrative'!

Astounding!

Islamisation of Education (as a state policy) under Zia was continuation of a process that had started much earlier.



There are many factors that have contributed to the 'Islamization' of Pakistan ... From Politics (local as well as international) to existential threats (whether real or perceived)...


Once Pakistan was created, Jinnah tried to open the membership of ML to all citizens of Pakistan (irrespective of religion), or alternatively dissolve it (as it had achieved its goal) .. Unfortunately he was unsuccessful ... Jinnah, who had been a Bombayite, had no similar roots in Karachi (the new Capital) .. Time and again he was made aware that he was an outsider. Similarly, many of his close associates (like Liaquat Ali Khan, Ibrahim Ismail Chundrigar etc. ) had no roots in Pakistan ... This was one of the reasons the ML didn't want to hold general elections in Pakistan... The first General Elections were held in Pakistan in 1970 (i.e. 23 years after the creation of Pakistan), whereas, In India, the first General Elections were held in 1951-52 ..


After the death of Jinnah in 1948, there was not a single person in ML who could effectively replace Jinnah as the undisputed leader of the ML or Pakistan. This was when "Islam" was first brought into politics by the Leaguers for the first time (to be used as a political tool) .. "Prostitution of Islam to meet political ends" as Iskander Mirza described it later !!

ML tried to use "Islam" as a political tool against the socialists of East Pakistan ... And those Mullahs who had openly opposed Jinnah and proudly rejected Jinnah's "unIslamic" ideals, were invited to join ML (see Munir Report of 1954 for details) ....... The country was named "Islamic Republic" in 1956


And after the separation of East Pakistan in 1971, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto devised a "two pronged policy" to prevent any further disintegration of Pakistan (in future) .. He initiated the nuclear program to remove/neutralize the threat of foreign (Indian) invasion ... And he made Pakistan an 'Islamic state' (by declaring "Islam" the state religion) to counter nationalism/provincialism in what was left of Pakistan ..

Later, Gen Zia-ul-Haq under a general drive towards Islamization, started the process of historical revisionism in earnest and exploited this initiative. And During the Soviet-Afghan war, the Americans and Saudis provided finances and wholeheartedly supported 'the Holy War' against the Russians, and they played a significant role in (re)creating 'Jihad'....



I am no fan of Zia, but I think it is Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto who deserves the blame .. It was during his regime that religion became the official legitimizing strategy for all political manoeuvres. In a frenzy to break the momentum of the PNA-led movement, numerous Islamisation measures erupted. Shariat laws were introduced; gambling, horse racing, and alcohol were banned. The PPP manifesto was duly amended, making Friday the weekly holiday, introducing Quranic studies as mandatory for all students, establishing Ulema (clerical) academies and so forth . These moves established the PPP’s dedication to the cause of Islam, which became Bhutto’s most powerful defence to fight the PNA in their own battlefield.


He was the one who made Islam the state religion and set pre-requisites for the head of state to be Muslim.... One of Bhutto’s last desperate bids to buy off religious parties agitating for his overthrow with U.S. backing was to declare the Ahmadiyya Community non-Muslim in 1974 ... The concept of "constitutional kafir" was introduced for the first time, thereby making "official adoption" of sectarianism (as a state policy)...


In 1976, ZAB controversially appointed General Zia-ul-Haq the Chief of Army Staff in another move to appease the JI (of whom Zia was a close compatriot) ... Zia ul Haq was the Pakistan army's most junior Lt. General when Bhutto selected him to be Chief of the Army Staff.... Later regretting his choice, ZAB told the Supreme Court (which sent him to the gallows): "I appointed a Chief of Army belonging to Jamaat-i-Islami and the result is before us." ... Bhutto institutionalized mullahism through constitution, and then he appointed an Army Chief belonging to JI ....

 

[CriticalThinker02]

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...ed-in-history-ayaz.446122/page-7#post-8621875

Actually the more I read into this the more it becomes clear to me, perhaps it is because of your lack of knowledge of Islam and Muslim history you automatically assume that the inherent contradictory statements of the Quaid means that he was biased or a hypocrite, or try to use this as an argument to pass on western secularism as a system he believed for Pakistan.

"You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State"

“Who am I to give you a constitution? The prophet of Islam had given us a constitution 1,300 years ago. We have to simply follow and implement it, and based on it we have to establish in our state Islam’s great system of governance.”

The secularist like you wants to believe that the first and only the first statement was the Quaid's vision while conservatives wants to believe in the latter, while to a degree both are wrong.

The real question is does both the statements conflict or support each other, on the surface the Quaid's speeches appear to send conflicting messages. However, a deeper examination of Charter of Medina, Islam's first constitution approved by Prophet Muhammad (SAW), suggests the Quaid's speeches are consistent with each other and conform to the original Islamic constitution.

Anyways this in itself is a very broad and deep topic for me to discuss myself, I was aware of the charter of Medina but I am in no way qualified enough yet to discuss this eloquently, I will leave the link to the ones who did.

https://defence.pk/threads/quaid-e-azams-vision-for-pakistan-islamic-secular-or-pluralistic.329001/

 

[M. Sarmad]

Actually the more I read into this the more it becomes clear to me, perhaps it is because of your lack of knowledge of Islam and Muslim history you automatically assume that the inherent contradictory statements of the Quaid means that he was biased or a hypocrite, or try to use this as an argument to pass on western secularism as a system he believed for Pakistan.

/

No, it's in fact your own lack of comprehension skills. Read my post again. I said that there was no inherent contradiction in Jinnah's views/statements .... And that the only hypocrites were Mullahs/conservatives who quoted Jinnah's speeches/interviews when he had talked about Islam, but then they very conveniently replace Jinnah's definition/understanding of Islam with their own (the extremely narrow one)


@Waqkz .... Let me ask you two very simple questions

Is Democracy compatible with Islam ?
Is Secularism compatible with Islam ?

 

[CriticalThinker02]

No, it's in fact your own lack of comprehension skills. Read my post again. I said that there was no inherent contradiction in Jinnah's views/statements .... And that the only hypocrites were Mullahs/conservatives who quoted Jinnah's speeches/interviews when he had talked about Islam, but then they very conveniently replace Jinnah's definition/understanding of Islam with their own (the extremely narrow one)

You are contradicting and only accepting those of his statements which fits your own world view, while rejecting his other statements, of-course not openly admitting but clearly implying and hinting that both of his statements are contradictory and hence he would be a hypocrite if we accept both of them, anyways I have posted the link please look it up.

 

[M. Sarmad]

You are contradicting and only accepting those of his statements which fits your own world view, while rejecting his other statements, of-course not openly admitting but clearly implying and hinting that both of his statements are contradictory and hence he would be a hypocrite if we accept both of them, anyways I have posted the link please look it up.

I am accepting all of his statements. Now can you please answer the two simple questions I have asked ?

 

[CriticalThinker02]

Is Democracy compatible with Islam ?
Is Secularism compatible with Islam ?

Please read up on the charter of Medina and the tenants that were laid down by the Prophet (SAW) himself, a deeper examination of the Charter of Medina, Islam's first constitution approved by Prophet Muhammad (SAW), suggests that the Quaid's speeches are consistent with each other and conform to the original Islamic constitution.

Anyways I am an Android Developer and spent more time in-front of the computer writing codes then I do with reading up on other subjects, I still do but I am in no way an expert, the last few days on this thread has taken a lot of stress, energy and time off me and I would respectfully like to part my ways here.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Please read up on the charter of Medina and the tenants that were laid down by the Prophet (SAW) himself, a deeper examination of the Charter of Medina, Islam's first constitution approved by Prophet Muhammad (SAW), suggests that the Quaid's speeches are consistent with each other and conform to the original Islamic constitution.

Anyways I am an Android Developer and spent more time in-front of the computer writing codes then I do with reading up on other subjects, I still do but I am in no way an expert, the last few days on this thread has taken a lot of stress, energy and time off me and I would respectfully like to part my ways here.

Yes, that exactly is my point. Democracy and Secularism are compatible with Islam. Jinnah said "Democracy is in the blood of Musalmans, who look upon complete equality of manhood [mankind]…[and] believe in fraternity, equality and liberty."

In Orthodox traditionalist Islam, there is no concept of equality of manhood. In Mullahs' Islam, Muslims and Non Muslims are "unequal", Men and Women are unequal ... Free men and Slaves are unequal ... and so on

The whole debate that Jinnah wanted a Secular Pakistan or did he want an Islamic Pakistan is based on a false premise/assumption. i.e., Islam and Secularism are incompatible

Jinnah (and Iqbal too) believed that Islam was compatible with Democracy and Secularism. he believed that it was possible to have a Modern Islamic democratic welfare state that treated all its citizens (regardless of their religion) as "equal citizens of the state."

 

[CriticalThinker02]

Yes, that exactly is my point. Democracy and Secularism are compatible with Islam. Jinnah said "Democracy is in the blood of Musalmans, who look upon complete equality of manhood [mankind]…[and] believe in fraternity, equality and liberty."

In Orthodox traditionalist Islam, there is no concept of equality of manhood. In Mullahs' Islam, Muslims and Non Muslims are "unequal", Men and Women are unequal ... Free men and Slaves are unequal ... and so on

The whole debate that Jinnah wanted a Secular Pakistan or did he want an Islamic Pakistan is based on a false premise/assumption. i.e., Islam and Secularism are incompatible

Jinnah (and Iqbal too) believed that Islam was compatible with Democracy and Secularism. he believed that it was possible to have a Modern Islamic democratic welfare state that treated all its citizens (regardless of their religion) as "equal citizens of the state."

I don't know which Ulema's you are following but in Islam Men and Women are equal in rights, here is an excerpt I wrote myself on the tenants of Hijab and if the Muslim world unites and the constitution of the Khilafah is ever drawn up it would be excerpt like these which will form the basis (keep in mind that the first six criterion were not written by me):

"According to the Glorious Quran and Hadith there are basically six criteria for observing hijab:

1. Extent:The first criterion is the extent of the body that should be covered. This is different for men and women. The extent of covering obligatory on the male is to cover the body at least from the navel to the knees. For women, the extent of covering obligatory is to cover the complete body except the face and the hands upto the wrist. If they wish to, they can cover even these parts of the body.

All the remaining five criteria are the same for men and women.

2. The clothes worn should be loose and should not reveal the figure.
3. The clothes worn should not be transparent such that one can see through them.
4. The clothes worn should not be so glamorous as to attract the opposite gender.
5. The clothes worn should not resemble that of the opposite gender.
6. The clothes worn should not resemble that of the unbelievers i.e. they should not wear clothes that are specifically identities or symbols of the unbelievers’ religions.

And the reason why the awrah of men (exposing of the chest and hair etc) compared to women has been lowered is because in Islam the complete financial burden falls to men, women are not required to work but they can if they want to (as long as the work both men and women do is Halal), so because the complete financial burden falls to men and some are most likely involved in heavy labor or construction work or some go to war etc a leniancy has been given to them.

I would also like to point out that in Islam both men and women are equal but they are not one and the same, women are emotionally, physically and physiologically different from men and that’s a fact. In certain situation men exceed women and in other women exceed men. Lets have a different perspective, suppose there are students A and B who have given an exam and scored equal marks of 80 out of 100, so in retrospect both student A and B are equal, overall they are yes but that does not mean both the students scored equal marks in all of the questions perhaps in the first question student A scored more where as student B scored more in the later question likewise as Allah SWT Who Is the Creator of both men and women has given advantage to men where women exceed and has given advantage to women where men exceed."

Anyways this should hopefully be my final comment here on this thread.