Pakistan To Participate In Turkey’s TFX Next-Gen Fighter Aircraft Program

[HAIDER]

They have officially confirmed it is for export only. It's made by Shenyang for the export market.

They have two new jets being made for PLAAF and PLAN. Two medium weight aircraft or one medium aircraft and one more heavy aircraft. These two jets will not be available for export either.



The issue isn't the weight alone. The issue comes from the requirement for internal weapons bays. It eats into the fuel supply and volume necessary for avionics. That's why you need a twin engine jet so you have a fuselage large enough to carry sufficient fuel and avionics.

For example, the Typhoon has the same thrust as the F-35, but carries about 40% less fuel load, and both have similar range. So it is impossible to design an internal bay into the Typhoon or it will end up with lesser range than the JF-17.

But to design a single engine stealth aircraft you need a very powerful engine. That's in the 200KN class like the F-35's engine. But right now only the US has this engine, no one else. So the only other, cheaper, option is to opt for 2 100KN engines like all other countries are doing.

100KN engines are available from many suppliers. 1 American, 2 European, 1 Chinese, 2 Russian, and eventually 1 Indian.

And if you talk about Russia or China being able to deliver similar class engines as the F-135, you can forget about those, the Type 30 and WS-15 are not available for export. At best these countries can supply 150KN engines, and this engine is not enough to power a medium class aircraft on its own.

150KN engines are available only from Russia and the US right now.

So if you really want a single engine jet, then your only option is to design one that uses 150KN and lower thrust which means your aircraft will be around the F-16 weight class. All single engine aircraft except the F-35 are light aircraft.

Building fighter jet is deficit financing . First explore the country need , then explore the market, where plane should be market and generate the funds for further development. Building and marketing the product is one hell of job. I would say first country should built the engine on the basis of requirements.

 

[Imtiaz_Sarwar]

So far Turkey has only sent us an invitation to join their program. Our side has not made any decision yet. I guess our senior officials must be very busy in meetings deciding all the modalities of this offer. Some of the issues could be:
How much of seed money will Pakistan put in this project.
How much of technology transfer will come to Pakistan.
How much of production work will come to Pakistan.
What new facilities will have to built to cater for new technology.
What bottlenecks can we face in this work.
How many turks will come to Pakistan and how much security will we have to provide them.
etc etc......
Right now I am waiting for our Minister of defence production to make an announcement. Are we IN or OUT

 

[Hassan Guy]

They have officially confirmed it is for export only. It's made by Shenyang for the export market.

They have two new jets being made for PLAAF and PLAN. Two medium weight aircraft or one medium aircraft and one more heavy aircraft. These two jets will not be available for export either.



The issue isn't the weight alone. The issue comes from the requirement for internal weapons bays. It eats into the fuel supply and volume necessary for avionics. That's why you need a twin engine jet so you have a fuselage large enough to carry sufficient fuel and avionics.

For example, the Typhoon has the same thrust as the F-35, but carries about 40% less fuel load, and both have similar range. So it is impossible to design an internal bay into the Typhoon or it will end up with lesser range than the JF-17.

But to design a single engine stealth aircraft you need a very powerful engine. That's in the 200KN class like the F-35's engine. But right now only the US has this engine, no one else. So the only other, cheaper, option is to opt for 2 100KN engines like all other countries are doing.

100KN engines are available from many suppliers. 1 American, 2 European, 1 Chinese, 2 Russian, and eventually 1 Indian.

And if you talk about Russia or China being able to deliver similar class engines as the F-135, you can forget about those, the Type 30 and WS-15 are not available for export. At best these countries can supply 150KN engines, and this engine is not enough to power a medium class aircraft on its own.

150KN engines are available only from Russia and the US right now.

So if you really want a single engine jet, then your only option is to design one that uses 150KN and lower thrust which means your aircraft will be around the F-16 weight class. All single engine aircraft except the F-35 are light aircraft.

The Ej2000 and Snecma m88 only produce 50-60kn each. Not 100 that is completely wrong. Together that makes for 100-120 in total.
China and Russia are developing single engines more powerful then that. And who said they won't be for export? in 10 years jet engines from Russia and China will be as powerful as the F-135.

So far Turkey has only sent us an invitation to join their program. Our side has not made any decision yet. I guess our senior officials must be very busy in meetings deciding all the modalities of this offer. Some of the issues could be:
How much of seed money will Pakistan put in this project.
How much of technology transfer will come to Pakistan.
How much of production work will come to Pakistan.
What new facilities will have to built to cater for new technology.
What bottlenecks can we face in this work.
How many turks will come to Pakistan and how much security will we have to provide them.
etc etc......
Right now I am waiting for our Minister of defence production to make an announcement. Are we IN or OUT

I agree, they need to answer as soon as possible otherwise we could lose the deal.

 

[R!CK]

Turkish Air Force concept for fifth generation multi-role fighter-bomber aircraft
- A +
Turkey has invited Pakistan to participate in the development of its next-generation fighter program, TFX.

Pakistan’s Minister of Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain in an interview with PTV last Sunday, said that Turkey had requested Islamabad to be part of the development program for its next-generation fighter aircraft.

Turkey is evaluating proposals for purchasing training aircraft for the Turkish Air Force, and Pakistan’s Super Mushshak trainer aircraft is a leading contender. A final decision is likely soon.

As for future collaboration, both countries are in discussions over possible cooperation on Turkey's first indigenous FX Fighter Jet program, Anadolu agency had quoted unnamed sources as saying in June this year.

Pakistan and Turkey are also collaborating on building a new warship fleet tanker. Pakistan’s Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KSEW) has launched a 17,000-tonne heavy Warship fleet tanker, which was being constructed by the company in collaborating with the Turkish firm Savunma Teknologiler Muhendisilik (STM) Sunday.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/16...ext_Gen_Fighter_Aircraft_Program#.V7x6cSNRXqB

This is a very interesting choice for PAF. Turkey is a very dedicated and committed country towards defense development. Good luck guys!

 

[The SC]

Pakistan will either buy the TFX or the J-31, it will be one or the other. Right now Turkey has only invited Pak into the project. At the same time, the Chinese could start pressuring the Pak govt to invest in the J-31 instead.

Pak should get a pretty decent negotiations advantage. But the Chinese option is low risk.

That is why they will be getting both..and J-31 will be ready much sooner than the TFX, which is scheduled to start production in 2023, with an order of 240 for TAF.. in brief it is a long time project..

 

[RedHulk]

They have officially confirmed it is for export only. It's made by Shenyang for the export market.

They have two new jets being made for PLAAF and PLAN. Two medium weight aircraft or one medium aircraft and one more heavy aircraft. These two jets will not be available for export either.



The issue isn't the weight alone. The issue comes from the requirement for internal weapons bays. It eats into the fuel supply and volume necessary for avionics. That's why you need a twin engine jet so you have a fuselage large enough to carry sufficient fuel and avionics.

For example, the Typhoon has the same thrust as the F-35, but carries about 40% less fuel load, and both have similar range. So it is impossible to design an internal bay into the Typhoon or it will end up with lesser range than the JF-17.

But to design a single engine stealth aircraft you need a very powerful engine. That's in the 200KN class like the F-35's engine. But right now only the US has this engine, no one else. So the only other, cheaper, option is to opt for 2 100KN engines like all other countries are doing.

100KN engines are available from many suppliers. 1 American, 2 European, 1 Chinese, 2 Russian, and eventually 1 Indian.

And if you talk about Russia or China being able to deliver similar class engines as the F-135, you can forget about those, the Type 30 and WS-15 are not available for export. At best these countries can supply 150KN engines, and this engine is not enough to power a medium class aircraft on its own.

150KN engines are available only from Russia and the US right now.

So if you really want a single engine jet, then your only option is to design one that uses 150KN and lower thrust which means your aircraft will be around the F-16 weight class. All single engine aircraft except the F-35 are light aircraft.

Thats why i suggested 2 WS10A cause single engine not possible even on 100KN ...So in total the thrust of 2 WS10A will be 260KN which will be more than F135 of 180KN. It will increase the range as well. Right now F-35 range is 2200km where as J-31 with twin WS13A engine have 4000km range.
Besides engine there are other parts in which TFX won't beat F-35 any time soon.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Thats why i suggested 2 WS10A cause single engine not possible even on 100KN ...So in total the thrust of 2 WS10A will be 200KN which will be more than F135 of 180KN. It will increase the range as well. Right now F-35 range is 2200km where as J-31 with twin WS10A engine have 4000km range.
Besides engine there are other parts in which TFX won't beat F-35 any time soon.

In 5-10 years(when TFX comes around) China will have 180kn Engines. If not Russia will.

 

[randomradio]

The Ej2000 and Snecma m88 only produce 50-60kn each. Not 100 that is completely wrong. Together that makes for 100-120 in total.

You are confused about the numbers. I am talking about wet thrust. If you are comparing dry thrust only, then you need your aircraft capable of generating 125+KN in dry thrust, only the F-135 can do that.

China and Russia are developing single engines more powerful then that.

Nope. The Chinese and Russian engines are for twin engine jets. They don't deliver more power than the F-135.

And who said they won't be for export?

How many F-100s have been exported? Zero.

The only American export grade engines are F-404 and F-414.

in 10 years jet engines from Russia and China will be as powerful as the F-135.

That means you can start designing and flight testing your jet only after 10 years. And this jet will be ready only in 2040. That is considering the Russians or the Chinese actually export the engine. It took Russia 20 years to export the AL-31 to China and that's because it was a part of the deal which included 400+ Flankers and a lot of other deals in the 90s that went into billions and billions of dolllars.

Nobody is going to simply give you high power engines. Even the Japanese are not getting it, that's why they plan to make their own. The Koreans were also denied engines.

That is why they will be getting both..and J-31 will be ready much soner than the TFX, which is scheduled to start production in 2023, with an order of 240 for TAF.. in brief it is a long time project..

PAF with both J-31 and TFX? That doesn't make sense. It's one or the other.

Thats why i suggested 2 WS10A cause single engine not possible even on 100KN ...So in total the thrust of 2 WS10A will be 200KN which will be more than F135 of 180KN.

WS-10 is too heavy. The EJ 200 is a far superior engine family, it has 30-40% less weight, better efficiency and can be upgraded to have the same amount of thrust.

It will increase the range as well.

That depends on how much fuel the TFX carries. The F-35 has 180KN engines, but has more than 8 tons of fuel. The AMCA is expected to have 230-240KN of thrust with 5.5 to 6.5 tons of fuel, similar to the F-15.

Right now F-35 range is 2200km where as J-31 with twin WS10A engine have 4000km range.

No, the F-35 has far more range than 2200Km. It matches the Su-30 at least.

Besides engine there are other parts in which TFX won't beat F-35 any time soon.

TFX is being designed for dog fights. It's being designed to compensate for the F-35's weaknesses.

 

[Hassan Guy]

You are confused about the numbers. I am talking about wet thrust. If you are comparing dry thrust only, then you need your aircraft capable of generating 125+KN in dry thrust, only the F-135 can do that.



Nope. The Chinese and Russian engines are for twin engine jets. They don't deliver more power than the F-135.



How many F-100s have been exported? Zero.

The only American export grade engines are F-404 and F-414.



That means you can start designing and flight testing your jet only after 10 years. And this jet will be ready only in 2040. That is considering the Russians or the Chinese actually export the engine. It took Russia 20 years to export the AL-31 to China and that's because it was a part of the deal which included 400+ Flankers and a lot of other deals in the 90s that went into billions and billions of dolllars.

Nobody is going to simply give you high power engines. Even the Japanese are not getting it, that's why they plan to make their own. The Koreans were also denied engines.



PAF with both J-31 and TFX? That doesn't make sense. It's one or the other.



WS-10 is too heavy. The EJ 200 is a far superior engine family, it has 30-40% less weight, better efficiency and can be upgraded to have the same amount of thrust.



That depends on how much fuel the TFX carries. The F-35 has 180KN engines, but has more than 8 tons of fuel. The AMCA is expected to have 230-240KN of thrust with 5.5 to 6.5 tons of fuel, similar to the F-15.



No, the F-35 has far more range than 2200Km. It matches the Su-30 at least.



TFX is being designed for dog fights. It's being designed to compensate for the F-35's weaknesses.

The Most Powerful jet that Russia has built is the AL-41 it's got of 140kn of thrust. China has already gotten these when they bought the only 24 Su-35's. And a Im sure a Chinese variant is coming along.
The TFX is mainly for air to air combat. Turkey's F-35 will do the rest. That is why Pakistan will need another 5th gen platform to make up for the gaps, that is if they go for the TFX.

 

[Basel]

NATO doesnt have any leverage on Turkey they can choose non NATO suppliers as long as the alternatives are competitive, Turkey is making attempts to be not dependent on US. In TFX case EJ200 already chosen as the basis for a new power plant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_TFX#Propulsion

Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu announced on January 8, 2015, that the TFX will be a twin-engined fighter jet.[2] The Turkish Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM), the procurement agency for Turkish Armed Forces, has written a letter of intent to three engine manufacturers: General Electric, Pratt & Whitney and EUROJET Turbo.

On 20 January 2015, Aselsan of Turkey announced that it had executed a memorandum of understanding with Eurojet, the manufacturer of the EJ200 engine used in the Eurofighter Typhoon.[29] The announcement also stated that a derivative of the EJ200 will be used in the TFX program.[30][31][32][33] The two companies will additionally collaborate and co-develop engine control software systems and engine maintenance monitoring systems.[33] Turkey's selection of the EJ200 evidences TAI's intention to utilise supercruise capability.

Future blocks could have EJ-230 engines too. With 2 EJ-200 and advance material and tech support from west the TFX will be superior in terms of performance compared to J-31 with 2 RD-93s and its tech.

 

[randomradio]

The Most Powerful jet that Russia has built is the AL-41 it's got of 140kn of thrust. China has already gotten these when they bought the only 24 Su-35's. And a Im sure a Chinese variant is coming along.

That's a Su-35 contract. The Chinese variant will not have Su-35's engine. And you are comparing wrong countries, China bought 400+ Flankers from Russia, what has Pakistan done?

Also, the 140KN engine is inferior to the F-35's 180KN engine. TFX requires more than 200KN.

That is why Pakistan will need another 5th gen platform to make up for the gaps, that is if they go for the TFX.

So why will you buy two aircraft that do the same thing? J-31 is no different from the TFX.

 

[Hassan Guy]

That's a Su-35 contract. The Chinese variant will not have Su-35's engine. And you are comparing wrong countries, China bought 400+ Flankers from Russia, what has Pakistan done?

Also, the 140KN engine is inferior to the F-35's 180KN engine. TFX requires more than 200KN.



So why will you buy two aircraft that do the same thing? J-31 is no different from the TFX.

If you check China is an operator of the Saturn AL-41.
Btw China doesn't buy anymore su-27's flankers they produce the J-11.
You don't understand what im saying. China produces engines based on the Russian ones. They will do the same with the Al-41. Eg WS-13 based on RD-93 and a bit better, For JF-17 and J-31.
China will be developing it's own variant of the Al-41, which Pakistan could get.
We don't know how much thrust the TFX will need, it's not even off the drawing board. Im sure in 10 years China could produce a more powerful engine.

Bro...The TFX is an air superiority jet like the F-22. The J-31 is multirole like F-35.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

So Pakistan is going to have two 5th generation fighter programs..in TFX & J-31

This is going to be a huge boost to PAF.

Hope GoI & IAF shows urgency on PAK-FA/FGFA & F-35 deals.

It seems you are jumping the gun here of future deals PAF might get involved in regards to 5 gen aircraft. PAF is looking at various options both individual as well as joint ventures.

Historically PAF has maintained both Western and Eastern together so they are capable to do it in the future as well. The limitation is financial hence it could be very difficult to procure US made aircraft. However if Pakistan through Turkey and China find common solutions then PAF might have both Western and Eastern aircraft.

Recently work on aviation city has commenced hence we do know this much that some thing big is going to come up in the future.

Never knew India is dependent on Pakistan...As a sovereign state India should procure what she feels are required to protect her self...

Oh it sure is practical! The single engine plane i mean. What i am saying is that is it NOT necessarily that we will decide not to procure a system just because it is twin engine in the future.

Sir,
In my opinion PAF should be looking to further develop the JF-17 programe with a stealth aircraft. This would be a single engine one...

TFX might provide Pakistan both designs hence reduced development costs.

 

[randomradio]

If you check China is an operator of the Saturn AL-41.
Btw China doesn't buy anymore su-27's flankers they produce the J-11.

The Su-27SK is called J-11, that was followed by the J-11A. Both came from Russian license, far more than 200 were produced. Then there's the Su-30MKK, they bought a hundred of those. More recently there's the Su-35. J-11B(Su-27) is the rip off, along with J-15(Su-33) and J-16(Su-30MKK).

Pak can buy 300 Su-35s today and even then won't get the Type 30. The Russians simply won't export it. The PAK FA's 117 itself is not available for export, forget the Type 30. And the engine will be co-owned by India. You think India will allow Russia to export PAK FA technologies to Pak? Russia is not even close to being an option for Pak. It's like expecting Brahmos for Pak. India and Russia will jointly own this technology.

You don't understand what im saying. China produces engines based on the Russian ones. They will do the same with the Al-41. Eg WS-13 based on RD-93 and a bit better, For JF-17 and J-31.

No they don't. And this argument is irrelevant anyway. The Chinese don't have a F-135 class engine and when they develop one, they won't give it to Pakistan or Turkey.

The Chinese are worse than the Soviet Union. They make separate products for export. They will give Pak the choice of J-31 or nothing. J-20 or its engine is not available for export.

Bro...The TFX is an air superiority jet like the F-22. The J-31 is multirole like F-35.

TFX and J-31 are similar, both are like the F-22, but much smaller. F-35 is a strike fighter.

F-22 max thrust = 330KN
TFX = expected to be about 200+KN
AMCA = 230+KN
J-31 = Currently has 176KN
F-35 = 185KN
PAK FA = 360KN
J-20 = 360KN

 

[Hassan Guy]

The Su-27SK is called J-11, that was followed by the J-11A. Both came from Russian license, far more than 200 were produced. Then there's the Su-30MKK, they bought a hundred of those. More recently there's the Su-35. J-11B(Su-27) is the rip off, along with J-15(Su-33) and J-16(Su-30MKK).

Pak can buy 300 Su-35s today and even then won't get the Type 30. The Russians simply won't export it. The PAK FA's 117 itself is not available for export, forget the Type 30. And the engine will be co-owned by India. You think India will allow Russia to export PAK FA technologies to Pak? Russia is not even close to being an option for Pak. It's like expecting Brahmos for Pak. India and Russia will jointly own this technology.



No they don't. And this argument is irrelevant anyway. The Chinese don't have a F-135 class engine and when they develop one, they won't give it to Pakistan or Turkey.

The Chinese are worse than the Soviet Union. They make separate products for export. They will give Pak the choice of J-31 or nothing. J-20 or its engine is not available for export.



TFX and J-31 are similar, both are like the F-22, but much smaller. F-35 is a strike fighter.

F-22 max thrust = 330KN
TFX = expected to be about 200+KN
AMCA = 230+KN
J-31 = Currently has 176KN
F-35 = 185KN
PAK FA = 360KN
J-20 = 360KN

Pakistan bought Mi-35's from Russia which was heavily opposed by India. The PAK FA is a Russian Fighter jet from the ground up. The FGFA is what India has joined in on. Obviously the FGFA won't be for export other then India like SU-30mki, But Su-35 has been an option. India doesn't control which equipment Russia exports. If Pakistan can look into Su-35's while India has MKI the same could happen for FA's. PAK FA and FGFA are different.

Pakistan will most likely be using the WS-13 once it's finished.