Pakistan To Participate In Turkey’s TFX Next-Gen Fighter Aircraft Program

[salarsikander]

What can Pakistan Possibly offer Turkish Aerospace ?

 

[Hassan Guy]

What can Pakistan Possibly offer Turkish Aerospace ?

Help Reduce Workload (More people)
Money(not much.....we have some if we can spend 5 billion on subs THAT too for the Navy)
Manufacturing(I think it would be cheap to produce in Pakistan)

 

[Shabi1]

Yes, however a single engine variant would make sense for Pakistan as J-31 is dual (which Pakistan will probably get).

Why would Pakistan want to buy another platform if J-31 already inducted. Only one 5th gen platform makes sense and there is no single or double engine rule.

Our lower and mid tier fleet requirements will likely be met as our Turkish friends are working on a F-16V style upgrade package independent of US components so it is likely the F-16s will get a life refresh in future. Thunders will be following Grippen NG style evolution in Block 3,4 and beyond. So PAF planning seems good.

 

[salarsikander]

Help Reduce Workload (More people)
Money(not much.....we have some if we can spend 5 billion on subs THAT too for the Navy)
Manufacturing(I think it would be cheap to produce in Pakistan)

Reduce workload, How ?
Its not like they need labours for tightening down the nuts or they need to hammer the wings of aircraft ?

I dont we have skilled labour workforce for aviation sector or as we like to call them, Technician and aviation engineers.

Manufacturing cheaper, again how ? Do we have industries ? we dont even low tech industry let alone Hi tech such as aviation. Do we have the equipment ? NO

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Help Reduce Workload (More people)
Money(not much.....we have some if we can spend 5 billion on subs THAT too for the Navy)
Manufacturing(I think it would be cheap to produce in Pakistan)

Cheaper Components made at PAC

 

[HAIDER]

Good finally Pakistan dumped Chinese mal


Jf 17 will nə developed into stealth in block 4

Turkish aircraft will take time. Right now UK is main component supplier. But, after political turmoil, everything in jeopardized. Last time, Turkey was looking at Ukraine for engine and other parts.

 

[randomradio]

Not true, This is an independent Turkish program, NATO has nothing to do with this project. Turkey is PAYING the UK for assistance. This Program is already US free(Though US weapons are compatible). As said Turkey can choose non NATO suppliers.

Turkey can choose non-NATO suppliers, but not for the engine. At best components, that too from more reliable countries like Israel and South Africa.

There is no way NATO will ever allow a major NATO member to be held hostage by an adversary. Switching to a Russian or Chinese engine would automatically mean half the Turkish fleet will become useless during wartime.

And Pakistan is not in a position to ensure the Turks design a brand new jet with a single engine specifically for Pak when they themselves have chosen a twin engine design. The Koreans did the same because they realized a single engine jet will be less capable and possibly more expensive to develop.

If you want a single engine stealth jet, then it will have to be a light aircraft. The TFX is not.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Indeed the professionals are aware of luxury and its expense hence a plan made while keeping in view the pocket as I said earlier. It is like starting to walk and next is running. If TFX interests Pakistan then I am sure, TAI and PAC/PAF are aware of our capability, potentials and share in this program though no one would be bluffing from PAC about that. Things are considered after a feasibility and reality check that too involves the economy.

No doubt that current shape of PAF's budget is not in favour to induct a new platform on urgent basis but here we are talking about future induction, amount paid in different dates that we are not going to pay billions in a single go that too proves that currently, we are not in position to buy Hi-end stuff off the shelf to show-case. Planning is based upon long run while keeping in view the growing economy as well. Our experience from K-8 till JFT, participation in such program based upon expertise and knowledge gained from current fleet would help a lot in such program that Turkey offered that is not unnecessarily or unknowingly.

Yet, we haven't joined the program but still I would say, if it is the case, that is going to be beneficial with lot of things for us. Aviation City/PAC is yet not committed/announced to build a total indigenous A/C of that category or it is not like that we are going to produce the A/C totally by us but could participate to the extent whereby, in future In'Sha'ALLAH we could be where many giants are today so no harm to start with little or as much as available. The JV of JFT was also started in the days when odds were not in favour or worse than today's shape but we succeeded and gained a lot while set a base for future participation.

Turkey did not start the TFX program uselessly or without having idea of platform though they have enough of experience for a starter and still leading in many areas than others. TFX is not going to roll-out by overnight so there is still plenty of time to advance the learning and in-cooperate much needed which will be done by the passage of time.

I hate to say but funding isn't that great an issue as far as the Turkish side is concerned. IMHO, they're fully aware of the financial aspects in this partnership. As the war against FETO is being won, the final bottlenecks are being put down one by one....

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

not necessarily!
people need to undersat d that concept of PAF buying single engines only. it is not that we cannot operate twin engines.
Also i would take what the minister have to say with a pinch of salt. he is a politician and survives by lieing! However there are other indications as well that paf may look for a JV with Turkey for fifth gen plane other than the Chinese option. If so, it will be great indeed

The indications came in earlier from the Turkish media (citing Turkish officials), so the MODP's statement was more of just a first verifiable statement to the effect.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Why would Pakistan want to buy another platform if J-31 already inducted. Only one 5th gen platform makes sense and there is no single or double engine rule.

Our lower and mid tier fleet requirements will likely be met as our Turkish friends are working on a F-16V style upgrade package independent of US components so it is likely the F-16s will get a life refresh in future. Thunders will be following Grippen NG style evolution in Block 3,4 and beyond. So PAF planning seems good.

Thats because across the border, 2 5th gen fighters will enter service in huge *** numbers. Some FGFA's and AMCA's, Even for the PLAAF, the J-31 will only play in part. They are also getting the J-20.

 

[randomradio]

Thats because across the border, 2 5th gen fighters will enter service in huge *** numbers. Some FGFA's and AMCA's, Even for the PLAAF, the J-31 will only play in part. They are also getting the J-20.

The J-31 is not meant for the PLAAF or PLAN. They have other jets that are coming up. J-31 is for export only.

 

[Hassan Guy]

The J-31 is not meant for the PLAAF or PLAN. They have other jets that are coming up. J-31 is for export only.

Export? To who? Of course it will enter service with China.

Turkey can choose non-NATO suppliers, but not for the engine. At best components, that too from more reliable countries like Israel and South Africa.

There is no way NATO will ever allow a major NATO member to be held hostage by an adversary. Switching to a Russian or Chinese engine would automatically mean half the Turkish fleet will become useless during wartime.

And Pakistan is not in a position to ensure the Turks design a brand new jet with a single engine specifically for Pak when they themselves have chosen a twin engine design. The Koreans did the same because they realized a single engine jet will be less capable and possibly more expensive to develop.

If you want a single engine stealth jet, then it will have to be a light aircraft. The TFX is not.

Single engine fighters aren't necessarily LA's.

 

[yılmaz]

twin engine version already concluded for tfx program..turkey dont make discrimination to pakistan..

 

[RedHulk]

What if Pakistan go for twin engine option, along the engine of their own choice e.g WS13A? As it will be already in j-31 so maintenance will be easy. We can't go for RD93 twin engines as it leave smoke trails. More over it will keep us safe from any sanctions on EJ200 sale. I think Pakistan can commit an annual 500m $ out of 8B $ military budget for the project over the 10 years. So in total our investment will be 5B$ in the project.

 

[randomradio]

Export? To who? Of course it will enter service with China.

They have officially confirmed it is for export only. It's made by Shenyang for the export market.

They have two new jets being made for PLAAF and PLAN. Two medium weight aircraft or one medium aircraft and one more heavy aircraft. These two jets will not be available for export either.

Single engine fighters aren't necessarily LA's.

The issue isn't the weight alone. The issue comes from the requirement for internal weapons bays. It eats into the fuel supply and volume necessary for avionics. That's why you need a twin engine jet so you have a fuselage large enough to carry sufficient fuel and avionics.

For example, the Typhoon has the same thrust as the F-35, but carries about 40% less fuel load, and both have similar range. So it is impossible to design an internal bay into the Typhoon or it will end up with lesser range than the JF-17.

But to design a single engine stealth aircraft you need a very powerful engine. That's in the 200KN class like the F-35's engine. But right now only the US has this engine, no one else. So the only other, cheaper, option is to opt for 2 100KN engines like all other countries are doing.

100KN engines are available from many suppliers. 1 American, 2 European, 1 Chinese, 2 Russian, and eventually 1 Indian.

And if you talk about Russia or China being able to deliver similar class engines as the F-135, you can forget about those, the Type 30 and WS-15 are not available for export. At best these countries can supply 150KN engines, and this engine is not enough to power a medium class aircraft on its own.

150KN engines are available only from Russia and the US right now.

So if you really want a single engine jet, then your only option is to design one that uses 150KN and lower thrust which means your aircraft will be around the F-16 weight class. All single engine aircraft except the F-35 are light aircraft.