Pakistan to buy six Type 041 Yuan-class diesel-electric submarines from China

[RAMPAGE]

I think a next generation Agosta is feasible a stronger bigger hull with technologies from scorpion and other subs into it can make it a potentially great diesel electric submarine. In order to counter hindustan we need to have atleast better conventional submarines it makes sense to further develop A-90 [B/C] instead of letting the Agosta Class die.

Exactly. I been thinking the same for quite some time, A 2000 plus tons version of Agosta with better sensors and and and a Pump-Jet (if possible) is the way to go. otherwise what was the purpose of getting ToT ???

@Oscar @Dillinger

Do you guys think that it's feasible ???

 

[Dillinger]

Exactly. I been thinking the same for quite some time, A 2000 plus tons version of Agosta with better sensors and and and a Pump-Jet (if possible) is the way to go. otherwise what was the purpose of getting ToT ???

@Oscar @Dillinger

Do you guys think that it's feasible ???

No. France is done with Agosta and therefore no radical upgrades or avatars of the Agosta are possible. At best the French might ensure that future combat management systems may still be compliant enough to be retro-fitted on to the Agostas. As such Pakistan's best bet is to either opt for the Chinese subs, request that the Chinese select some Pakistani firms to act as vendors for sub-components thereby ensuring accrual of certain expertise. On the other hand once the fiscal situation improves Pakistan can look at HDW and Navantia's offerings. Had Pakistan played its cards right in the first decade of the millennium it would have found itself almost at a rough parity (in the present, and such a state could have lasted for nearly half a decade) with the IN's undersea arm thanks to the delay in the Scorpene project and the recent spate of incidents.

 

[SQ8]

Exactly. I been thinking the same for quite some time, A 2000 plus tons version of Agosta with better sensors and and and a Pump-Jet (if possible) is the way to go. otherwise what was the purpose of getting ToT ???

@Oscar @Dillinger

Do you guys think that it's feasible ???

Lenghthing the boat may put excessive stress on the original design concept and may lead to measures that would increase the weight and complexity beyond what is feasible. The Agosta was always a small boat, and an outdated design.

Something newer is needed. The Type-214 is a good boat with the right systems but the Qing class(if made up to measure to even the Agosta-90B's quiet standards has the potential to be a true strategic asset.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Lenghthing the boat may put excessive stress on the original design concept and may lead to measures that would increase the weight and complexity beyond what is feasible. The Agosta was always a small boat, and an outdated design.

Something newer is needed. The Type-214 is a good boat with the right systems but the Qing class(if made up to measure to even the Agosta-90B's quiet standards has the potential to be a true strategic asset.

I hear you but what was the point of acquiring ToT if we can't even design our NG submarine ???

 

[SQ8]

I hear you but what was the point of acquiring ToT if we can't even design our NG submarine ???

The ToT allows us to upgrade or refurbish our subs to keep them in service for a long time. It also gives us the ability to design systems such as SUBTICS(although not similar is incomplete ToT of that system was given).. for any future sub design. Pakistan could take the Qing and outfit it with its own Weapons management and systems management control.

 

[Dillinger]

@Oscar

Chinese Type 041 Qing Class Submarine was launched at Wuhan Shipyard last year. It is rumored that Type 041 Qing Class Submarines are fitted with flank sonar arrays and improved targeting system to effectively provide guidance to the long-range antiship missiles and land attack cruise missiles.

WHY? Flank sonar arrays for guiding long range ASMs and LRCMs!

I hear you but what was the point of acquiring ToT if we can't even design our NG submarine ???

That's because ToT is always M-ToT, so that Pakistan can stock up on spares and perishables for smooth maintenance and ergo achieve optimum operational availability. The same applies for almost all deals which include ToT, once in a blue moon component designs can be gleaned or specific system designs passed on.

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar


WHY? Flank sonar arrays for guiding long range ASMs and LRCMs!.

Im guessing they are not Sonar Arrays. but radars.. Juliett class boats had Radar's built into their sails to allow for targeting and initial guidance for SSMs

 

[PoKeMon]

I doubt PN will buy subs without AIP... they even equippppped the Agostas with MESMA AIPs.

No need to equip all with AIP. You need to have few patrolling closer to you shore facilities.

 

[Dillinger]

Im guessing they are not Sonar Arrays. but radars.. Juliett class boats had Radar's built into their sails to allow for targeting and initial guidance for SSMs

Still won't help LRCMs. Besides LRCMs don't need any help from the submarine they're launched from anyway. Even more so when sail mounted radars can only operate for what they're worth once the sub is surfaced add to that the fact that at that elevation the radar horizon for the said radar is as it is debilitating. I honestly think the writer amalgamated attributes and functions of a combat management system and flank array sonars.

You really thing that the Qings are the way to go? In the absence of info on the dimensions of the torp tubes I can't really comment on what sort of tube launched ASM or perhaps even LACM it can launch, any idea?

 

[SQ8]

Still won't help LRCMs. Besides LRCMs don't need any help from the submarine they're launched from anyway. Even more so when sail mounted radars can only operate for what they're worth once the sub is surfaced add to that the fact that at that elevation the radar horizon for the said radar is as it is debilitating. I honestly think the writer amalgamated attributes and functions of a combat management system and flank array sonars.

You really thing that the Qings are the way to go? In the absence of info on the dimensions of the torp tubes I can't really comment on what sort of tube launched ASM or perhaps even LACM it can launch, any idea?

Today's LRCM's could be launched from a fishing boat if needed. Sat based guidance and pre-stored targets have made anything else history. Could be that the writer was short of words, as I dont see much space or design provision for a radar array on that sail.

 

[Dillinger]

Today's LRCM's could be launched from a fishing boat if needed. Sat based guidance and pre-stored targets have made anything else history. Could be that the writer was short of words, as I dont see much space or design provision for a radar array on that sail.

Exacta!

On the other hand unless we are talking torp tubes rated at 650mm there aren't many LACMs that can be used on the sub.

 

[SQ8]

Exacta!

On the other hand unless we are talking torp tubes rated at 650mm there aren't many LACMs that can be used on the sub.

Im eyeing the potential for extending the Sub and the addition of MESMA(for which ToT exists???)

 

[Dillinger]

Im eyeing the potential for extending the Sub and the addition of MESMA(for which ToT exists???)

Personally I wouldn't want MESMA on our subs. The Sterling AIP just comes across as more reliable, less hi-fi than the membrane exchange hydrogen uber super duper HDW AIP but solid tech. AND Kockums is on record stating that they can easily retrofit said AIP on both Scorpenes and Type-209s.

 

[SQ8]

Personally I wouldn't want MESMA on our subs. The Sterling AIP just comes across as more reliable, less hi-fi than the membrane exchange hydrogen uber super duper HDW AIP but solid tech. AND Kockums is on record stating that they can easily retrofit said AIP on both Scorpenes and Type-209s.

One of reasons given at some doubts for the U-214 at the beginning of the procurement idea was the HDW AIP with its fuel cells and what not. Too many things that can go wrong with that system. The Stirling system seems simple enough, but its a matter of trade offs. The MESMA provides more power but less range. Stirlings have more range but less power.

 

[Dillinger]

One of reasons given at some doubts for the U-214 at the beginning of the procurement idea was the HDW AIP with its fuel cells and what not. Too many things that can go wrong with that system. The Stirling system seems simple enough, but its a matter of trade offs. The MESMA provides more power but less range. Stirlings have more range but less power.

If and when our scorpenes go in for an AIP fitment its probably going to be the MESMA.

Stirlings are just simpler in their design, been around longer and for some reason instill more confidence.

What of the Chinese AIP, any insights?