Pakistan Tipped Off US On OBL

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pressure to do what Agnostic Muslim? What is it that you couldn't have done for Amreeka? It was purely a case of trust. That's the only possible explanation.

Pressure to launch major ops in NW - pressure to hand over Mullah Omar and his close leadership (which the US suspects Pakistan knows the location of) - pressure to continue drone strikes and other Abbottabad like ops because Pakistan's military would be discredited - pressure to allow a bigger CIA footprint in Pakistan etc.

 

[Jango]

... and effective publicity.

That's what matters in the end huh??

 

[VCheng]

That's what matters in the end huh??

Well, a robust narrative with consistent presentation and effective publicity does matter.

Any missing element renders that whole combination ineffective. It is not enough to be in the right; one must also be seen to be in the right.

 

[Jango]

Well, a robust narrative with consistent presentation and effective publicity does matter.

Any missing element renders that whole combination ineffective. It is not enough to be in the right; one must also be seen to be in the right.

And the authenticity is biased heavily by other factors, regardless whether the narrative is true or not.

I say something, you say the other. people believe you because of your image!

 

[VCheng]

And the authenticity is biased heavily by other factors, regardless whether the narrative is true or not.

I say something, you say the other. people believe you because of your image!

How can something be "authentic" if it is not true? Image by itself must be grounded in reality and developed and maintained before achieving credibility. I simply cannot understand what you are trying to say here, properly, given your choice of words.

 

[Jango]

How can something be "authentic" if it is not true? Image by itself must be grounded in reality and developed and maintained before achieving credibility. I simply cannot understand what you are trying to say here, properly, given your choice of words.

Writing on an IPhone can be quite a difficult thing!!!

The point I am trying to get across is that whatever I (pakistan) say, people will still not take me seriously,whereas if you (US) say something, people will readily accept. Hence bias.

The information can be perceived as authentic by some people, simply because of the image one has built.

 

[Solomon2]

The point I am trying to get across is that whatever I (pakistan) say, people will still not take me seriously,whereas if you (US) say something, people will readily accept. Hence bias.

O.K., that may not be fair. But is it not just?

 

[haviZsultan]

Writing on an IPhone can be quite a difficult thing!!!

The point I am trying to get across is that whatever I (pakistan) say, people will still not take me seriously,whereas if you (US) say something, people will readily accept. Hence bias.

The information can be perceived as authentic by some people, simply because of the image one has built.

This is totally true. As Hassan Nisar puts it we are in a state of decline... not just us Pakistanis but all Islamic states.

Look at the Iran example. No matter how much they say they do not have any plans to build nukes no one wishes to believe them. They are being bullied into oblivion. No one cares that even if they are building nukes they are justified with a neighboring Pakistan with nukes... US presence in both Iraq and Afghanistan (surrounded on two sides by a hostile superpower) with 10,000+ nukes. Israel has nukes even if it doesn't say it (why tolerate them)...

There is nothing that can explain our failures but the state of decline we are in. The only way to get out of it is to change ourselves and work for the betterment of our people.

America has built its position so that no one can stand against it. Its products are in demand, it is a superpower... hence it can use its power to wrangle us into any position and do anything it wants. We can call them murderers, bullies and hate them for the rest of our lives but the truth will always be that this is partly our fault. We did not develop our lands. We are involved in corruption... hence we have destroyed the very heartland we have sought to call home.

I think the Bin Laden thing was a huge failure. Nothing we say can undo it and raises question marks over our ability to fight any kind of enemy. American or Taliban.

 

[Jango]

O.K., that may not be fair. But is it not just?

Well....under the circumstances currently, you cannot really blame the world for not believing us.

 

[VCheng]

Writing on an IPhone can be quite a difficult thing!!!

The point I am trying to get across is that whatever I (pakistan) say, people will still not take me seriously,whereas if you (US) say something, people will readily accept. Hence bias.

The information can be perceived as authentic by some people, simply because of the image one has built.

Okay, that makes more sense to me now.

That is exactly why one has to work hard and long to build up the proper credible image upon a solid foundation. One cannot just wish to be taken seriously just like that. This is true for both individuals and nations.

After all, how many people believe me here based solely on my posts here? Others have more credibility than I do, presently, but if I put in the necessary effort, perhaps I can build up credibility too. It is not easy.

See how it works?

The same is true for Pakistan.

 

[Jango]

I think the Bin Laden thing was a huge failure. Nothing we say can undo it and raises question marks over our ability to fight any kind of enemy. American or Taliban.

The fact that the PM and President congratulated the world on this makes it even more un-bearable. The Army chief and high command was absolutely furious at this reaction by the top political leadership.

Okay, that makes more sense to me now.

That is exactly why one has to work hard and long to build up the proper credible image upon a solid foundation. One cannot just wish to be taken seriously just like that. This is true for both individuals and nations.

After all, how many people believe me here based solely on my posts here? Others have more credibility than I do, presently, but if I put in the necessary effort, perhaps I can build up credibility too. It is not easy.

See how it works?

The same is true for Pakistan.

But the thing with Pakistan is, that the whole nation of 180 million souls gets branded as liars, cheats and whatnot.

State of Pakistan (government), and nation of Pakistan (people) are two different things IMO.

You may say that the leadership is from within the people, but that does not justify the whole nation being labelled as a liar.

 

[VCheng]

................
But the thing with Pakistan is, that the whole nation of 180 million souls gets branded as liars, cheats and whatnot.

State of Pakistan (government), and nation of Pakistan (people) are two different things IMO.

You may say that the leadership is from within the people, but that does not justify the whole nation being labelled as a liar.

I can assure you, nobody calls the whole nation of Pakistan as liars. People can see the difference between the individual qualities and national policies.

I can take this discussion further, but it belongs in another topic IMO.

Suffice to say here, that the whole nation is paying the price for its leaders' follies, and the poison is seeping downwards into all layers of its society. Unless halted, the whole nation will eventually be poisoned.

That is also part of the reason why the OBL issues raises so much angst for it showed the reality in a very dramatic way. Pakistan can either deny it, or accept it and rectify what led to the whole saga.

That is a choice for Pakistan, both people and government, to make.

I hope they choose wisely.

 

[Jango]

I can assure you, nobody calls the whole nation of Pakistan as liars. People can see the difference between the individual qualities and national policies.

I can take this discussion further, but it belongs in another topic IMO.

Suffice to say here, that the whole nation is paying the price for its leaders' follies, and the poison is seeping downwards into all layers of its society. Unless halted, the whole nation will eventually be poisoned.

That is also part of the reason why the OBL issues raises so much angst for it showed the reality in a very dramatic way. Pakistan can either deny it, or accept it and rectify what led to the whole saga.

That is a choice for Pakistan, both people and government, to make.

I hope they choose wisely.

Part of the world in which I am , there is a hugely negative view held by select nationalities, while some nationalities have a majority good view. Other thread though.

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OBL issue is being slowly made into a farce in Pakistan now. The commission is now a topi drama, nothing is happening, the PM has a different statement, the president another, and now the Defence minister comes in with his own views. All the while the military is in it's own little cocoon.

I say, better to move forward rather than keep on dwelling in the past.

 

[Solomon2]

The commission is now a topi drama, nothing is happening -

In my experience here in D.C. unless the commissioners bring specialized knowledge to the table or hold open sessions, meetings of a government commission can be worse than useless; they are employed as a tool for doing nothing.

 

[Jango]

In my experience here in D.C. unless the commissioners bring specialized knowledge to the table or hold open sessions, meetings of a government commission can be worse than useless; they are employed as a tool for doing nothing.

In Pakistan anything happens, just make a commission, public keeps quite for a while , some more money is spent, job done.

Air Crash happens, make a commission comprising of a motorway police official. Point is, that the formation of a commission is to just lower the public anger.

Nobody knows the objectives of the OBL commission right now. But it serves the political purpose pretty well.