Pakistan Tipped Off US On OBL

[E Pencho]

There is very little difference - the US did in fact have intelligence of a plot, and US interests had already been attacked, so the fact that a terrorist attack occurred despite the fact that US intelligence was looking (or should have been looking) for such an attack does point to an intel failure.

Had you been talkin about some bomb blasts then I wanna agree with you. (because it has happened many times) However you're talking about something which nobody expected. There was no clear hint that the planes will hit the twin towers. That's not the case with something you're comparing it with. There was a clear possibility of OBL being present in Pakistan. But it looks like you don't wanna see the difference.

Similarly, while Pakistan was looking for OBL, the widespread consensus was that he was dead or somewhere in the tribal areas. The fact that he was hiding in Abbottabad did in fact come as a surprise.

In Abbottabad? Yes it was a surprise. But in Pakistan? No. It was not a surprise. Just like its not a surprise (according to the fresh report) that the new AQ leader is there somewhere in Pakistan.

Now there is a possibility that this new leader may also be killed in a unilateral strike and then (instead of accepting the intelligence failure) again you'll start comparing it with 9/11 or Mumbai attacks.

Anyways, I just had some questions which I did ask. But nobody is interested to talk about it. Instead people want me to read other threads Lol. And people wanna talk about RAW and 9/11.

 

[Windjammer]

^^^^^^^^

Since you are so keen to milk this story, let me remind you that the allegations were that OBL may be dead... living in the border areas....never left Afghanistan, and there were even suggestions that he escaped to Yemen.
It's a lame explanation you portray for the likes of CIA and RAW.....let me remind you the intelligence agencies in their both covert and overt operations are the first line of defence and are meant to pre-empt any pending dangers rather than close the gate after the Horse has bolted, hence your explanations of the two agencies not picking up on the attacks, since they weren't expecting them sounds rather ridiculous. The relative examples were for you to understand that due to the human factor, the ISI like others can also falter. And if you still insist that RAW wasn't exactly expecting a boat to arrive at India Gate then imagine the embarrassment when your country represented a list to Pakistan of ten most wanted......and it turned out that some half of them were already languishing in your own jails. It doesn't get any worse than that. !!!

 

[E Pencho]

Since you are so keen to milk this story, let me remind you that the allegations were that OBL may be dead... living in the border areas....never left Afghanistan, and there were even suggestions that he escaped to Yemen.

Also, there were suggestions that he is in Pak. How many times will I have to repeat it?

It's a lame explanation you portray for the likes of CIA and RAW.....let me remind you the intelligence agencies in their both covert and overt operations are the first line of defence and are meant to pre-empt any pending dangers rather than close the gate after the Horse has bolted, hence your explanations of the two agencies not picking up on the attacks, since they weren't expecting them sounds rather ridiculous.

I never given them the clean chit. It was surely a failure on their part but it can't be compared with the OBL fiasco which is the BAAP of every intelligence failure we can imagine of.

The relative examples were for you to understand that due to the human factor, the ISI like others can also falter. And if you still insist that RAW wasn't exactly expecting a boat to arrive at India Gate then imagine the embarrassment when your country represented a list to Pakistan of ten most wanted......and it turned out that some half of them were already languishing in your own jails. It doesn't get any worse than that. !!!

Who found that out? Did Pakistan carry a unilateral strike in Indian jails and showed the world that they were here? Or it was India who finally found it out in less than 48 hours?

On the other hand, OBL lived life king size just near your military academy for WHOLE 5 YEARS and your agencies had no idea. What do you think is more embarrassing?

You really need to improve your comparison skills!!

 

[Windjammer]

Also, there were suggestions that he is in Pak. How many times will I have to repeat it?

Acute lack of comprehension to say the least......when i said in border areas, it didn't exactly imply as Mexican Border.

I never given them the clean chit. It was surely a failure on their part but it can't be compared with the OBL fiasco which is the BAAP of every intelligence failure we can imagine of.

As an internet warrior, I highly doubt that you are in any position to categorise any intelligence agency for their espionage proficiencies.

Who found that out? Did Pakistan carry a unilateral strike in Indian jails and showed the world that they were here? Or it was India who finally found it out in less than 48 hours?

On the other hand, OBL lived life king size just near your military academy for WHOLE 5 YEARS and your agencies had no idea. What do you think is more embarrassing?

You really need to improve your comparison skills!!

Surely the list wasn't accumulated overnight and proves one thing, it lacked any intelligence, LOL @ 48 hours, for after 9/11 even the Americans were pointing fingers at Al-qaida within the same period. As for, OBL, both the CIA and ISI were looking for him for the same period and it was the initial ISI findings, which eventually led to his demise. There is no comparison, a failure is deemed as such, be it 9/11, OBL debacle or a dozen guys holding a city hostage for three days. Period.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Also, there were suggestions that he is in Pak. How many times will I have to repeat it?

Pakistan is a very large country with a population of 180 million. Merely saying that 'he might be in Pakistan' does not mean much.

I never given them the clean chit. It was surely a failure on their part but it can't be compared with the OBL fiasco which is the BAAP of every intelligence failure we can imagine of.

It is a failure, but not by any means a 'baap of all failures'. Let me remind you that Pakistan, despite plenty of reports that OBL was dead or was in the Tribal areas of Pakistan/Afghanistan somewhere, continued to find intelligence on him, and that it was Pakistani provided intelligence from KSM and the phone# related to the courier that allowed the US to determine his location. Without the support of the ISI, the US would not have been able to locate OBL.

Please read the Guardian article posted in this thread earlier by me to understand the extensive cooperation between the ISI and CIA and how Pakistan would have in fact found OBL's location eventually, and perhaps quicker than the US did, had the US not lied about the intelligence provided by Pakistan and back-stabbed Pakistan.

 

[Windjammer]

LOL Okay.

At least we are on the same page that Pakistan was one of the possible locations of OBL. He lived there for 5 years (holy $hit) and somebody from the west went inside your sovereign country and killed him. That's how you came to know that he was there.

Now you are making it sound as you only heard about it this morning..... ironically those from the West allegedly arrived in the wee hours using latest gadgets and ran helter skelter, unlike the dozen guys with very basic weaponry leisurely sailing past your defences and in the end kept you busy for three days and nights. When did you exactly find out. !!

Using the same logic, you too are not in a position to compare them. You too are not in a position to say that they are equal. That was the most pathetic reply. What we have been doing all along?

Since you intentions are merely to troll, hence you are oblivious to the psyche of my detail. Now that is indeed pathetic since highlighting their failures in their respective duties certainly doesn't qualify as a blunt comparison. You need to work on that more. !!

I've explained it already why these examples can't be compared. I've explained how they are different in nature. Please refer my previous posts. I can't repeat the same thing for 1000 times. Just wanna say one thing, being in denial will further worsen the mess you're already in.

Well i be damned.....are we showing our soft side now.....we are touched....contrary to your grave concern, I can assure you baring the common political mess, the situation in earnest has improved considerably, but you will not understand this since it's against your interests and beliefs.!!

 

[Hulk]

Pakistan Tipped off US on OBL.
Means they knew they were giving tip about OBL, none of the evidence in light shows that they knew it was OBL.

If Pakistan knew it was OBL, why did they not acted on it, it was their own home and conducting operation or spying was easier for them, it is not even tribal belt that they cannot reach.

If they did not that they information was linked to OBL but it helped US get to OBL, then the title is wrong.

Pakistan did not tipped US about OBL, they passed some information without knowing what it was.

The only reason they have to pass info about OBL to US without acting on it will be if the person is located in ungoverned area of Pakisan and Drone Strike was needed to get him.

In this case, it is not the case.

If Pakistan knew it, either it would have acted on it or it was hiding OBL.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan Tipped off US on OBL.
Means they knew they were giving tip about OBL, none of the evidence in light shows that they knew it was OBL.

If Pakistan knew it was OBL, why did they not acted on it, it was their own home and conducting operation or spying was easier for them, it is not even tribal belt that they cannot reach.

If they did not that they information was linked to OBL but it helped US get to OBL, then the title is wrong.

Pakistan did not tipped US about OBL, they passed some information without knowing what it was.

The only reason they have to pass info about OBL to US without acting on it will be if the person is located in ungoverned area of Pakisan and Drone Strike was needed to get him.

In this case, it is not the case.

If Pakistan knew it, either it would have acted on it or it was hiding OBL.

Please read the previous posts and the Guardian article regarding the cooperation and intelligence the ISI provided the US.

 

[karan.1970]

Please read the previous posts and the Guardian article regarding the cooperation and intelligence the ISI provided the US.

But its a pretty well discussed and established POV that the information passed by ISI to CIA about OBL was due to the fact that they didnt know what they were passing along.. And its anyone's guess whether they would have done the same if they knew what it was that they had in their hand..

 

[VCheng]

Please read the previous posts and the Guardian article regarding the cooperation and intelligence the ISI provided the US.

It is clear that ISI provided much needed co-operation and intelligence during the whole war.

Could it be that all that mutual co-operation went down the drain, figuratively speaking of course, due to "other" activities that ran counter to this sharing?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

But its a pretty well discussed and established POV that the information passed by ISI to CIA about OBL was due to the fact that they didnt know what they were passing along.. And its anyone's guess whether they would have done the same if they knew what it was that they had in their hand..

They knew it was related to AQ/OBL, but not that it was specifically the number for the courier.

They obviously were not passing on intel related to the price of tea ...

Could it be that all that mutual co-operation went down the drain, figuratively speaking of course, due to "other" activities that ran counter to this sharing?

Other activities:

1. Raymond Davis
2. Abbottabad raid/back-stabbing of Pakistan
3. Salala Bombing
....

 

[VCheng]

...........
Other activities:

1. Raymond Davis
2. Abbottabad raid/back-stabbing of Pakistan
3. Salala Bombing
....

Surely the list is not one-sided, is it?

 

[Armstrong]

Surely the list is not one-sided, is it?

What would the other side say, exactly ?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

even to this day, there is a fear of reprisal from Al Qaeda...as it is, we are dealing with enough issues of terrorism along the border with Afghanistan and elsewhere. Al Qaeda itself as an ''organization'' is really just a mindset. What was once a centralized organization is simply no longer. Even the yanks acknowledge this fact.

it's already been established that we didn't know of his whereabouts.....it was known who was his courier (Al-Kuwaiti) because it was the ISI that shared the information and signal intercepts with the CIA. It was possibly known that a ''VIP'' was in A-Bad but you don't compromise months' worth of monitoring by going in with guns blazing.

the ISI is good, but they aren't God. There was an intelligence failure on our part; but it was actually Pakistan that helped lead to Osama's eventual demise (we are told in news tabloids that he's buried at sea)

In fact, the only reason Pakistan was being punished left right and center in the media was because Obama quickly back-tracked on what he said during his address to the nation (which i saw in its entirety, live).....the US Admin was loath to acknowledge Pakistan's assistance (and forget Osama - we've captured or killed much of AQ's senior leadership at our own behest) as the May 2nd incident came just months after Pakistan detained America's vagabound, rogue ''CIA contractor'' who killed 2 unarmed Pakistanis in city of Lahore.

They wanted to humiliate Pakistan and, well, I guess they did a damn good job of that.


However, Pakistan will be on the right side of history; especially now as the naiive NATO-backers actually believe that their whole ''fight, build talk'' strategy in Afghanistan will actually work.....especially in the face of increasing opposition to NATO boots in the country.


Many Americans are becoming vocal in their demands about seeing pictures of OBL's dead body (citing the freedom for information act, among others). Such demands have been declined, and many are wondering why that is.

 

[Hulk]

They knew it was related to AQ/OBL, but not that it was specifically the number for the courier.

They obviously were not passing on intel related to the price of tea ...


Other activities:

1. Raymond Davis
2. Abbottabad raid/back-stabbing of Pakistan
3. Salala Bombing
....

If they it was related to OBL why US raided without informing you, since you were working with them? Why you did not raid yourself?

Look where you stand today US accused you to be either incompetent or complicit, if the corporation was so clear cut why do they feel that way?