Pakistan Tipped Off US On OBL

[VCheng]

Part of the world in which I am , there is a hugely negative view held by select nationalities, while some nationalities have a majority good view. Other thread though.

I should have been clearer: when I assured you that I can assure you, nobody calls the whole nation of Pakistan as liars, I implicitly meant USA. The Middle East and Europe are quite another story and you may be correct there.


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OBL issue is being slowly made into a farce in Pakistan now. The commission is now a topi drama, nothing is happening, the PM has a different statement, the president another, and now the Defence minister comes in with his own views. All the while the military is in it's own little cocoon.

I say, better to move forward rather than keep on dwelling in the past.

Pakistan cannot move forward without exorcising its religious demons.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

In my experience here in D.C. unless the commissioners bring specialized knowledge to the table or hold open sessions, meetings of a government commission can be worse than useless; they are employed as a tool for doing nothing.

well it's evident.....the 9/11 commission was pretty much ueseless (i remember downloading and reading the report in its entirety)

no commission or inquiry over why Iraq (a sovereign country) was invaded, based on a pack of lies? A lie that cost the lives of over a million Iraqis, as well as US personnel needlessly killed

 

[VCheng]

ISI knew EVERYTHING about Bin Laden. They were hiding him in Abbottabad.

That is mere unsubstantiated slander unless you are prepared to back it up with some credible proof in support.

 

[Jango]

Pakistan cannot move forward without exorcising its religious demons.

But that exorcism has to be done faithfully, and for the betterment of the future.

Not for petty personal gains. make a commission, take the public off your back, and get some votes. That's the whole purpose.

 

[VCheng]

But that exorcism has to be done faithfully, and for the betterment of the future.

Not for petty personal gains. make a commission, take the public off your back, and get some votes. That's the whole purpose.

Agreed.

But the process must start in earnest. It is long overdue already.

 

[E Pencho]

Pressure to launch major ops in NW - pressure to hand over Mullah Omar and his close leadership (which the US suspects Pakistan knows the location of) -

Yeah and what does it mean? Isn't it the trust issue that I was talking about?

pressure to continue drone strikes and other Abbottabad like ops because Pakistan's military would be discredited -

They don't need to pressure or convince you for any drone strike or unilateral operation. When did they pressure you for these things? They are doing it the way they like it. They really don't need your approval, hence no pressure.

pressure to allow a bigger CIA footprint in Pakistan etc.

To kill terrorists? Then what's the problem? Don't we both (or anyone for that matter) want it?

They wouldn't need to be in Pakistan in the first place, had Pakistan eliminated the terrorists
from its soil.

There is nothing you could come up with to reason your argument of "Pressuring Pakistan".

Be a man and accept the reality that it was the matter of trust, that's why the unilateral operation was conducted.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yeah and what does it mean? Isn't it the trust issue that I was talking about?

No, it means pressuring the GoP to undertake military operations in yet another Agency when the PA is already stretched.

They don't need to pressure or convince you for any drone strike or unilateral operation. When did they pressure you for these things? They are doing it the way they like it. They really don't need your approval, hence no pressure.

Actually they do need create a perception of legality for their drone strikes and pressure Pakistan to keep their protests limited to protests, because the US does not have any legal basis to continue the strikes if Pakistan were to choose to escalate the confrontation over them.

To kill terrorists? Then what's the problem? Don't we both (or anyone for that matter) want it?

How would Pakistan know that the expansion in the CIA footprint was not for espionage on Pakistan's military and strategic programs? Only a fool would allow the intelligence agency of a hostile nation to expand its operations on its soil.

They wouldn't need to be in Pakistan in the first place, had Pakistan eliminated the terrorists
from its soil.

The terrorists would not be on Pakistani soil in the first place, and hundreds of thousands of innocents and hundreds of billions in lossses (by Pakistan and Afghanistan) would not have occurred if the US had not invaded Afghanistan in the first place and instead taken up the Taliban offer to negotiate the trial of OBL in a third country.

There is nothing you could come up with to reason your argument of "Pressuring Pakistan".

I just provided you the reasons.

Be a man and accept the reality that it was the matter of trust, that's why the unilateral operation was conducted.

Stop being a troll and conduct your discourse with civility - why the argument of 'trust' is an invalid one, I have already explained, by pointing out the extensive cooperation Pakistan provided in neutralizing AQ, and in tracking down OBL.

Pakistan cannot be responsible for the paranoia and anti-Pakistan prejudice of the US Establishment.

 

[VCheng]

......................
Pakistan cannot be responsible for the paranoia and anti-Pakistan prejudice of the US Establishment.

But as long as Pakistan suffers the main brunt of the adverse effects of such perceived (albeit erroneous) bias against it, doesn't the main responsibility of trying to improve the situation also fall on it?

"Karey koi, bharey koi" may seem unfair, but that is just the way it is, I suppose.

 

[FaujHistorian]

if you guys were responsible for giving them the info , why prosecute the doc who gave the US DNA evidence,...

No one can tell it for sure. One could guess that Pak army is telling everyone especially to Pakistani civilians, not to setup your private spy networks in Pakistan. USA should come to us, and we'll work with them. We have worked with them for 60+ years and we'll work with them for the next 60 years too.


peace.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

if you guys were responsible for giving them the info , why prosecute the doc who gave the US DNA evidence, and why make such a hullabaloo over the seal team violating your sovereignty ?

there's nothing wrong with reporting Bin Laden's whereabouts......tracking down the world's most wanted man (assuming he was there that night) would be a huge icing on the cake.

however the way he WENT ABOUT DOING IT was wrong. It's been discussed many times; all he had to do was report it to the local authorities. He decided to contact a foreign intel agency and circumvented laws and standard practice (even ethical medical practice) in order to get a US Visa. That isn't right and that's why he's paying for it.


if you perceive it as "Pakistan busted him as punishment for getting bin laden whacked" then you clearly lack understanding of the situation and should stick to your comic books - which may be a bit user-friendly for your intelligence levels

Yeah and what does it mean? Isn't it the trust issue that I was talking about?

.

it means it was Pres. Obama and Pentagon's publicity stunt - which served several (multiple) purposes....


create furor in the PA, put pressure on Pakistan to "do more" as well as to penalize Pakistan for capturing and imprisoning their "contractor" (Raymond Davis) - an affair which embarassed and infuriated the Americans - even though in actuality it's the Pakistanis and ONLY the Pakistanis who should have been the ones being infuriated!


curiously - they still look to Pakistan to open the supply lines and to offer unlimited cooperation -while not taking our security concerns into consideration.....that's not how it SHOULD work and that's not how it WILL work. The Obama Admin. grudgingly knows this already.

 

[FaujHistorian]

But as long as Pakistan suffers the main brunt of the adverse effects of such perceived (albeit erroneous) bias against it, doesn't the main responsibility of trying to improve the situation also fall on it?

"Karey koi, bharey koi" may seem unfair, but that is just the way it is, I suppose.

In general, Pakistan is divided along Pro-US group (mostly army), and anti-US group (99% of media). Pakistani awam doesn't care much about who does who as long as their life is OK. you can conduct a poll and man on the street says Osama zindabad, but once the OBL is sent to hell, man on the street moves on to find a new drama.

All of those negative "perceptions" that you talk about, are propagated day and night by the leftists and socialist dominated media in Pakistan.

USA has tried to prop up some media outlets by funding part of their operations, but it won't work. Mullahs and media will take American money and still bite her when the time comes.

Pak army comes from a specific region where people worked in East India company's guards, then the same people worked with British army and police, and after 1947 worked with USA+UK alliance.

Ultimately the West has to come around and work with Pak army, because that's the largest and most organized pro-West group in the country.

Peace.

 

[VCheng]

...............
however the way he WENT ABOUT DOING IT was wrong. .......................
if you perceive it as "Pakistan busted him as punishment for getting bin laden whacked" .......................

Regardless of the argument and counter-argument, the important point that Pakistan should consider is whether prosecuting Dr. Afridi on perceived "principle" alone is worth the great cost in adverse perception in the entire international community, given its already precarious position.

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Ultimately the West has to come around and work with Pak army, because that's the largest and most organized pro-West group in the country.
...........

The Army is only pro-itself, and it is more likely that it will have to come around to work with USA, whether by bending or breaking is up to it, of course.

 

[FaujHistorian]

t...... Obama and Pentagon's publicity stunt - which served several (multiple) purposes....


create furor in the PA, put pressure on Pakistan to "do more" as well as to penalize Pakistan for capturing and imprisoning their "contractor" (Raymond Davis) - ....

I think you are reading too much into this.

Taking out OBL was going to be American through and through. Pak army was not going to touch the proverbial "hot potato".

Pro-American Pakistanis always thought, that killing of OBL will create mass uprising, so no one was ready to participate directly.

Americans knew it and Pakistanis knew it. OBL as clear from his papers, had lost the control of his organization. Taking him out was more symbolic than anything.

Thus anything that Prez Obama has said so far is to correctly take the credit for it. In the short run, Pak army was happy as it took away pressure from them.

Once the OBL was gone, the mythical threat of mass uprising is over, and Pak army will slowly get back into making the claims of cooperation.

peace.

....
The Army is only pro-itself, ....

Deep down every individual and every "successful" organization has to be "pro-itself". Nothing new there.

However if you want to view long term views in Pakistan, you will find Pak army to be largely pro-West compared to other groups. I have already provided historical reasons for it.


peace.

 

[Rod of God]

That is mere unsubstantiated slander unless you are prepared to back it up with some credible proof in support.

Either the ISI is the WORST 'intelligence' agency in the world, or they hid him. Bin Ladens wives had TWO children born in Pakistani government hospitals while he was living in Pakistan 'on the run'. Gee !! I wonder how THAT could have happened ?

 

[FaujHistorian]

Either the ISI is the WORST 'intelligence' agency in the world, or they hid him. Bin Ladens wives had TWO children born in Pakistani government hospitals while he was living in Pakistan 'on the run'. Gee !! I wonder how THAT could have happened ?

Your "feelings" are an example of the conjecture thrown around in the days following OBL killing.

However it has been proven wrong, as none of the papers grabbed from OBL hideout prove that ISI as hiding him.

I am not sure about your level of study on major criminals in the USA. There are many who went "off radar" and lived relatively normal life, got married (or at least in long term relationships), had babies (if they wanted to). That doesn't mean the local intel was in cahoots with them.

So present a proof against ISI as Vcheng asked you too. Going on and on based on conjecture only shows arrogance and not wisdom.

peace.