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Pakistan should be a Secular State

Pakistan is incapable of being secular. The society is just not ready for it.

They need to become a "country" first. it is a hujoom right now.

First feed the starving hujooms right now in your country which is pretending to be next super power lolz :D :D Also educate your desperate for sex men who can rape any living and moving thing on this planet )
 
Dear brother Krash,

Thank you for your reply, a lengthy one and no matter that we agree or disagree, I am glad to have a conversation with you.

Firstly, lets cut to the chase - you are suggesting that religion or secularism are not the problems that do not cause our prosperity or lack thereof.

I would say that I disagree. Islam is far more a way of life than Christianity, and has had a deep impact on all the cultures of the Muslim world. Thus for instance, you will find that snake charmers can be found from Morroco to Samarkand, but never in the non-Muslim world.

You can find that the entire Muslim world cannot produce the research of a single Western nation. We have universities, just like the West, often copy-pasted but still!

You can see Germany, which was destroyed completely and utterly after WWII. All its scienitists and engineers where either killed or migrated (many by force). Industries where either destroyed or in many cases, physically taken. Much of the male population decimated. Yet, within 15 years, West Germany became one of the top economies of the world. In contrast, all the oil of the Arabs, all the money, all the effort could not turn a single Gulf state into an economic powerhouse.

You can find that the Ottomans lived next door to Europe and gave them gunpowder. Yet, watched Europe develop from 1400-1800, without doing much to catch up. Yet in comparison, you see Japan, which, from the moment they came into contact with The West, quickly adapted and developed to challenge them.

I can give you a hundred other examples but suffice it to say that the case is rather solid to exemplify that:

1. The problem of the Muslim world is a common problem. Its not an Algerian problem, an Egyptian problem, a Pakistani problem, or an Indonesian problem. The virus for all purposes appears to have similar genetics.

2. The diagnosis therefore must be a common diagnosis.

You misunderstood me. My contention is not that we can progress holistically with or without religion. My contention is that we can progress economically with or without religion, religion as perceived by the Muslims of today not what was brought 1400 years ago. We however believe that praying 5 times a day and not drinking alcohol will magically start raining money on our streets. Of course this won't happen because as soon as we step out of the mosque, at times within as well, we become cutthroat, conniving, dishonest backstabbers who would kill his own brother for a few rupees. Why? Because we've made Islam dogmatic and confined to spirituality when it is precisely meant to break us free of these curses. Why did the most primitive society on the planet suddenly start ruling half of the known geographic world and almost all of the intellectual and academic world? Because this religion broke them free of these dogmas which we, as idiots, want to flail around with pride (this is a discussion in it self so I'll just stop here). Islam doesn't become a way of life when you pray five times a day. It becomes the way of life when you start following the principles that it teaches you. Praying has no direct societal impact whatsoever, it is these principles that change the society. The principles which the west imported and adopted from you! Only to give them different names, secularism, democracy, freedom of speech and expression, freedom of religion, honesty to the state and fellow man, so on and an unending so forth. You think these western societies were socially compatible or inclined towards free thought? They were brother killing, dishonest savages. And then they adopted what you discarded and began ruling you.

So, the crux of the previous post: You want holistic progress? Fine, start practicing principles which are indisputable. You don't want to call it Islam? Fine, call it modern thought (or whatever for that matter). You wan't to call it Islam? Fine, call it Islam. You don't need Islam to teach you to be honest, upright, humble or hardworking, take it from which ever place you want. Everything, every book, every rational mind, every religion, philosophy, sociology, COMMON SENSE (!) tells you these principles. You think these principles are incompatible to any society in the world? They are less incompatible to us than they were to the west. And as for culture, you don't sit on it in hopes of saving it. You change it, evolve it. That is an intrinsic property of culture itself. But we are so comically stupid that we are debating, with swords in hand, what color to paint the building when the base of the building isn't even there.

And even more comically, we demand that religion be imposed on us from the top. That is like crooks complaining of their own thievery and then blaming the local police for not stopping them. We can't even stop ourselves from cutting in ques and you're telling me that imposing Islam from the top will fix us? A laugh to that sir.

ps: The diagnosis is common and a very simple one; be honest to your state, your fellow man and your own self. Everything else branches out from this.

pps: There are many different socioeconomic problems behind the Muslim world's predicament. Turkey solved them one way, Malaysia solved them another way. Both are rich and prospering.


But we are not the Netherlands! Our "social genetics" are totally different from the West. We make the common mistake to think we can compare ourselves to the West, or apply its solutions without understanding our completely different societies.

Thus Turkey under Attaturk thought the same and decided that rejecting their language and culture and replacing it with European ones (down to the names of their streets) would turn them into a developed nation "like the West". This approach didn't work out. In contrast, Japan kept its culture, and built an economic model around its own culture (Kanban, Kanren-gaishas, etc) and succeeded.

The fact of the matter is simple. A race horse cannot be fed and trained as a camel, or vice versa. We have to have solutions rooted in our own cultures. Since our cultures are deeply influenced by Islam...

The line you quoted was a continuation of what I explained in the above para of this post. You misunderstood it. I actually completely agree with your point. I wrote another post to the same effect a few posts before. However, one must keep in mind that you do not need to let go of any of your cultural or societal values in pursuit of the said, very basic and independent principles. Freedom of expression, democracy or secularism do not automatically allow alcohol or prostitution, for example, in your society. The society has all the right to prohibit these in the country, but only if the society overwhelmingly agrees to it (Developearo explained it well in his post). Unless the said values are irrational, dishonest and/or a breach upon someone's rights, e.g. the blasphemy law. You can't hide your warts under the guise of cultural values. That is how you fall and we have fallen. Btw, all of this is actually taught by Islam. There's no problem, we just love making excuses.

Well, I think you don't do yourself justice here, and we've gone down to talking about doping. But let's leave that aside. The issue is this: no great nation uses the language of another to develop its sciences and technology. Thus, as a member of the education committee of PTI's IRW, I argued for Urdu to be used for the national curriculum. There are many varied and sophisticated arguments on both sides, and the matter has little to do with dope. We can discuss this at length if you like but it detracts from our topic. The matter is this, we were able to convince or helped convincing PTI to have this as a manifesto aim - to use Urdu as the national language, and the language eventually as for all curriculum. In the simplest terms - just as Germans use German, Japanese use Japanese, Koreans use Korean, Chinese use Chinese, French use French, Russians use Russian... all great engineering and technology leaders use their own language to study science and they excel - why? Because you can't grasp concepts as easily, and "play with them" in your mind as easily, as in your native language!

That was actually what I was trying to say too; Disregarding the debate of one's pride and losing one's own self, you can't achieve anything by taking away the language (doping the society or 'trying to box it up', like Attaturk did), especially in this day and age. If we want a more lasting and substantial solution then we must solve the problem itself instead of running away or burying our heads into the ground. The Urdu vs English is a long debate and a complicated one for me, I wont get into it.


The basic point, which is the point essentially that Allama Iqbal, Allama Asad, Muhammad Abduh, Malek Bennabi, Ali Shariati.... and others are making (and this is a gross simplification but we can go deeper into it, but for now...), is this:

1. That the problem of the Muslim world is common across the board.

2. That the Muslim world is living in a state of Ignorance or Jahiliya or as Iqbal called it "Dead crust". i.e. we are a dead civilization or more politely, a post-civilization.

3. That the key element is culture and our society, that suffers from multiple major problems, many of them deriving from our religion (as our religion is intrinsically linked to our culture). (Thus for instance, khirad ko gholami sey...)

4. That both the problems and the solutions lie intrinsically with our culture and religion.

5. That any solution we apply, must not be cookie cutter solutions from the West, as our "soil" is fundamentally different. Thus development, democracy, education, R&D, etc has to be modified to our conditions very carefully.

6. That we have to stop being unserious about this, talking about headless chickens and drinking water and what not. This is a dead serious issue, and we need to put our collective brains to diagnose and solve these problems. Its not a mere debate or argument on the internet. As the grandson of one of the founders of Pakistan, its my biggest concern. Its something I have pondered over for 12 years, and only really began to grasp in the last 1 year or so. This is a very complex problem, and we have to take this dead seriously...

Not a speck of disagreement here. Unless somebody out-rightly disregards nationalism or democracy because they supposedly come from the West. Like the post I was replying to. Then it is just stupid and I won't have it.

I assure you I'm not more serious about much else. Still, analogies help make a point.
 
Thank You for taking interest :thank_you2: Well the system of Khilafat actually works on the principle of Masjid (Mosque). Its like every town would have its own Masjid. Not like the ones we have today :sick: . Masjid in Islamic system actually works as a community centre (not only for Muslims but even for non-Muslims, as seen in the Holy Prophet (S.A.A.W)'s time). Dealing with all administrative affairs of the town along with addressing spiritual needs. This makes the people of the town directly connected with the administrative office of the town.
The centre along with all this also serves as a training centre for its people in informal education and religious wisdom, plus provides them with a platform to express their skills, knowledge, experience etc. All this allows the BEST PERSON from the town (in respect of religious wisdom, leadership and knowledge of the world) to become the Imaam of the Masjid. This Imaam is obviously also the Administrator of the town.
And so a city will a have central Masjid that will select the best person (Imaam of a town) as Administrator of the city.
This system goes on and would ultimately form a Majlis-e-Shoora at the Fedral Level, which will select by process of voting the the BEST member among them to become the Caliph of the State.

What is the difference with the said example of a mosque and a town's hall or a community center of today? Zilch. You can do the same thing in a cricket ground too. They're the same. The mosque won't mysteriously, with divine intervention, intervene and correct every stupid decision that people try to make under its roof. There was no spiritual reason behind using the mosque as the community center, it was logical, administrative and wise. People in that time didn't believe in making grand structures for trivial activities.

Khalifa literally means "one who replaces someone else who left or died". So first of all He (S.A.A.W) was'nt replacing anyone but was establishing a system. The system was later established by people closest to Him (the four Caliphs) and that is enough for us to call it an Islamic way.

Does not make it Islamic. God declared the religion complete before the Prophet's (S.A.W) death. So its a system implemented by the Prophet's (S.A.W) companions after his death? Then its not the Islamic way. Learn the principle's of governance that Islam taught you not that Hazrat Omar (A.S) wore a toga hence Nawaz Sharif must wear a toga too. Btw do you know how the 4 caliphs got appointed? Yeah, all in different ways. Where's the system? This was the point of my previous post.

Misswaq is the Islamic way of brushing your teeth... I guess you never went through the hadith of Prophet (S.A.A.W) that if it was'nt difficult for the people He (S.A.A.W) would have made Miswaaq a compulsion.

Had there been toothpaste and the toothbrush then he would've said the same thing about them. Why? Because he wasn't talking about the misswaq but the act of cleaning one's teeth.

Guess you must learn to differentiate between sunnah and farz or wajib...

Exactly, differentiate between the sunnah, the farz and the wajib. At the same time also differentiate between the act and the principle behind it.
 
Haha.. hiding the truth wont change the reality.

Taking verses out of context.. u n taliban are different sides of the same coin..

P.S: Try googling the correct meaning of the verse.. u will feel like a moron.

Where does Islam say target other religions?

LOL... same bullshyt..




https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=Lzy0LoH_xtlwQYPXWl_eww&bvm=bv.50768961,d.aWc

I believe, karan.1970 was a little sarcastic. He knows very well that the verse he referred to is out of context. But, my question is can you make the terrorist Taliban fundamentalists not to believe in this verse?

They will just come and bomb your house at night for saying something different than they believe wholeheartedly. There are many such verses the fundamentalists get dictate from wrongly.
 
Let me ask a question,what is the meaning of secularism?

Pakistan should adopt a constitution suitable and welcomed by the majority of its citizens,Islamic Republic modelled after Turkey sounds good enough.
 
Let me ask a question,what is the meaning of secularism?

Pakistan should adopt a constitution suitable and welcomed by the majority of its citizens,Islamic Republic modelled after Turkey sounds good enough.

Turkey is not an Islamic Republic although majority of its people are muslim. Same is with Bangladesh.
 
I believe, karan.1970 was a little sarcastic. He knows very well that the verse he referred to is out of context. But, my question is can you make the terrorist Taliban fundamentalists not to believe in this verse?

They will just come and bomb your house at night for saying something different than they believe wholeheartedly. There are many such verses the fundamentalists get dictate from wrongly.

Hes just a typical pathetic excuse of a human being.
 
Secular or Islamic or something else is secondary.
What Pakistan needs urgently is education, better governance, health care and jobs for the people.
Once they provide that, they will gain some moral authority which can be spent on countering the terrorists.
Current state of Pakistan's leadership is such that if terrorists blowup the politicians people would be celebrating instead of mourning.
 
As Jinnah's own famous words go by : Religion should not be allowed to come into Politics….Religion is merely a matter between man and God”

Do you have source for this quote?

Read the book "Secular Jinnah & Pakistan: What The Nation Doesn't Know" by Saleena Karim. She makes it clear that Jinnah was totally committed to the idea of a Pakistan governed by the Quran and Sunnah and dispels the lie that he promoted a secularist state.

Jinnah himself states that Pakistan must be based on the principles of "Islamic Socialism not other -isms" (i.e. not secularism)


So let us not forsake the substance for form. Only a secular state which saves Islam from manipulation by various contending groups in this country can truly fulfill the aims and objectives of Pakistan as a prosperous and egalitarian state.

"Extremism in the Defence of Liberty is no Vice"
-Barry Goldwater (1964 Republican Presidential Candidate also a former 2 star American General)

This is how your enemy thinks yet you continue to believe their nonsense about "secularism" and "modernity" instead of fighting for your own liberty (the right to live in accordance with the will of our creator a belief system adopted by our forefathers in our homeland instead of colonialist laws and not being forced to cooperate in a war under the threat of violence).

Secularism has no place in Pakistan and it will not work here or anywhere for long nor will it bring prosperity/security (ex. has Secularism stopped the ruling Awami party in Bangladesh from slaughtering Muslims or what about Egypt's coup that led to the overthrow of a democratically elected government the first freely elected in 30+ years by secularist forces?).

Secularism is a byproduct of western history with Christianity and ultimately a rejection of God by stating that humans know better than our creator. There are no "morals" in a secular/atheist society (ex. The US has been a "secularist" nation since it's inception but that didn't stop slavery, racism, indefinite incarceration without trial, government legalized assassinations of their own citizens, etc...). In a secularist society human beings largely dictate what's right and what's wrong and that always changes depending on the mood of the people or their agenda (one of a few reasons why democracy in general is always doomed to fail). Capitalism without rules is the byproduct of secularism which has increased the level of income disparity among the worlds population particularly in the Western world. Secularism has, by and large, brought mostly death and poverty to the world. It was secular and atheist nations that have been the leading cause of war, poverty and death for the last 100 years but before that these same nations were killing innocent men, women and children during their invasions (ex. crusades and colonialism) so nothing much changed with them adopting their new political stance. Did you simply forget all the death/destruction that resulted from both World Wars and the Cold war (particularly within the USSR) who dragged Muslim nations into their conflict?

The problem has never been "manipulation" it's always, as I have come to see it, individual Muslims unwillingness to understand Islam through research and debate and finally get everyone on the same page by rooting out any minor differences between us. From my understanding 31 of the leading and most prominent Ulema and scholars of various schools of sects and schools of thought agreed on 22 basic points for the country’s constitution to establish Sharia as our justice system in Pakistan back in 1950 so it can and has been done.

When people talk about an Islamic state they forget that it does not necessarily put Muslims first. Islam does have rules of conduct for Muslims but it also expands into the idea of charity, defending the weak/destitute, living a balanced life (ex. be peaceful but not pacifists), providing equal access to economic opportunities, etc... for all people.

The reason most of the non-Western world is poor is because of colonialism/slavery and sabotage which I went deeper into on another post I replied to just prior to yours. To give you an example Pakistan and India's GDP (PPP) per capita rose 300% in 33 years following the end of colonialism while during colonialism our GDP rose a measly 60% in 115 years as confirmed by Angus Maddison in his book "Contours of the World Economy, 1–2030". The same goes for Africa whose economies all grew much faster after the end of colonialism than during it (which was confirmed in the 1996 paper "Did Colonization Matter for Growth" by Prof. Graziella Bertocchi and Prof. Fabio Canova of the Universities of Modena and Pompeu Fabra respectively) and the effect of colonialism was termed as largely "negative" but that success was sabotaged after many of it's countries went on a borrowing spree thanks to the advice the World Bank and IMF (made and controlled by individuals from secularist nations) gave it in the 70s and 80s. The west grew on our backs and blood but out of sheer arrogance they completely ignore their history then not only lambast us (even when they're the ones starting the wars) but try to give us advice which is totally different from what made them wealthy.

Pakistan wasn't created by one man it was the collective will of a civilization distinct from India in it's history and culture (ex. ethnicity, religious beliefs, etc...).

Our nation needs to abandon this idiocy of attempting to make it a western style liberal democracy (which has and will always fail). Instead we need to become the perfect form of government which is the Islamic Republic (which I went deeper into in my previous post). Until our constitution is unchanging (i.e. based on the Quran and Sunnah) we'll move forward but at a much slower pace than we should be.

Islam abhors corruption yet you think secularism would stop it? You think secularism is going to eliminate stupidity when Islam teaches us to learn? Islam provides an economic model that works to eliminate income disparity and promotes charity yet you think secularism is going to do the job done?

We need leaders who are nationalistic honest religious men not "secularists" or "liberals" or hypocrites who say one thing and do another (ex. talk about brotherhood and kill their own brothers/sisters or steal money allocated for Hajj or say they're Muslim and then when their brothers/sisters in Pakistan need them like during the flooding they run off to foreign countries to enjoy fine foods, etc...). Pakistan must become a true Islamic Republic.
 
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When people talk about an Islamic state they forget that it does not necessarily put Muslims first. Islam does have rules of conduct for Muslims but it also expands into the idea of charity, defending the weak/destitute, living a balanced life (ex. be peaceful but not pacifists), providing equal access to economic opportunities, etc... for all people.

An Islamic state does put Muslims first that's why Jizia is taken from Non-Muslims. A non-Muslim cannot be placed at key places like PM, President Army Chief etc. State gets the authority to intervene in the matters of common man and can declare certain community minority or non-Muslim. Where certain non-Muslim community is barred to profess, propagate and practice its religion openly.
 
Pakistan is ment to be a model Islamic state following the Quran Rules and Allah's Laws working on basic principal of Unity,Faith and discipline……
But we didn't gave place to Islam after Qaids death thats why we are facing these miserable illiterate moulvis who don't understand the Quran and just want people to follow whatever they are saying……:azn:

a pork eating wine drinking prson creating as islamic state.. please.. its like saying a warrior murderer pedofile created a religion.
 
Pakistan was founded as a secular state bit Jinnah's islamic appeasement and Liaqat Ali Khan butchered immigration policy turned it into a islamist heaven..seriously..just what the heck some resolutions like these were suppose to mean? Utter nonsense..Liaqat ali khan was a biggest traitor to the nation..good riddance.


Objectives Resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Objectives Resolution was a resolution adopted on March 12, 1949 by the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan. The resolution, proposed by the Prime Minister, Liaquat Ali Khan, proclaimed that the future constitution of Pakistan would not be modelled entirely on a European pattern, but on the ideology and democratic faith of Islam.
 
a pork eating wine drinking prson creating as islamic state.. please.. its like saying a warrior murderer pedofile created a religion.

can you please provide some reference to this accusation?
 
I guess most pak members will know that I'm an uncompromising liberalist. I'm not hypocritical on this. it is a dream I have for my own country. And I hope you will see the sincerity when I say that your country becomes secular too. It is the best future for the subcontinent.
 
I guess most pak members will know that I'm an uncompromising liberalist. I'm not hypocritical on this. it is a dream I have for my own country. And I hope you will see the sincerity when I say that your country becomes secular too. It is the best future for the subcontinent.

Two different societies. Secularism in Pakistan will prove to be a disaster.
 

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