Pakistan should be a Secular State

[my2cents]

well to start with, it was not the other religious parties which played any role in the ideology of pakistan. it was the Muslim league. and then it was the secularist Ghulam Muhammad who used the excuse of Ahmadi controversy to undemocratically dismiss Nanimuddin in 1953 followed by induction of ministers who were advocates of secularist ideology for the first time. then it was under the dictatorial rule of musharraf that the secular ideology flourished in Pakistan.
yes, the religious parties took it to the other extreme during the zia ul haq period. but it was the secularists who first derailed the ideology of pakistan and consequently destroyed the ideological wealth of original muslim league.
and finally none of the elections have been conducted on the basis of islamic ideology of pakistan. were you to conduct elections based on one party supporting islamic ideology and the other standing against it, you'll come to realize the reality. and none of the major parties have done it openly because they know the risk.

All your major parties are working under cloak of secular ideals. I am not sure what they are afraid of to adopt Islamic ideology and constitution.

 

[474474]

Can anyone tell me how secular countries are ANY better and dont have THEIR share of problems?

Boom boom?

 

[HRK]

This is funny…even after 65+ years of Independence, Still Pakistan thinks that country should be Secular of Islamic state.

even after 1000+ year indians are trying to create a nation......forcefully.......

 

[474474]

This is one of the lame and stupid arguments from the people who never studied the system and ultimately become an expert in government affairs.

For the past 1400 years. Its like you are suggesting that the system of state should be Android compatible or else you cannot implement it.
The Kingship (or absolute monarchy) system is still present in many countries around the world. What about that??




Just to make you understand! In Khilafat System a person does'nt just DECLARES himself a Kalifah. It has a proper procedure to bring up the Caliph from Majlis-e-Shooraa.



So this makes it a system of no value ehh?? Western democracy has failed many times too... Better to mark that in your notes too..



Well, Khilafat actually offers a better transparency, openness, and check & balances as compared to a Secular State democracy.. So vocal supporters in your eyes are actually strong believers!!

180 mil people sitting in a majlis...perfect. Oh wait, obviously no women. And yeah, minus the minorities too. And the shias. And the unpopular ethnicities.
Oh wait, we're back where we started.

 

[shree835]

even after 1000+ year indians are trying to create a nation......forcefully.......

Ohh ...How intelligent you are. !

 

[HRK]

Ohh ...How intelligent you are. !

thnx to acknowledge......

 

[d-fence]

We are headless chickens...

What we fail to realize is that there are a billion different ways of achieving economic prosperity; get lucky like the Arabs, be as hardworking as the Japanese or the Germans...

This discussion is futile, trivial and completely inconsequential....

Dear brother Krash,

Thank you for your reply, a lengthy one and no matter that we agree or disagree, I am glad to have a conversation with you.

Firstly, lets cut to the chase - you are suggesting that religion or secularism are not the problems that do not cause our prosperity or lack thereof.

I would say that I disagree. Islam is far more a way of life than Christianity, and has had a deep impact on all the cultures of the Muslim world. Thus for instance, you will find that snake charmers can be found from Morroco to Samarkand, but never in the non-Muslim world.

You can find that the entire Muslim world cannot produce the research of a single Western nation. We have universities, just like the West, often copy-pasted but still!

You can see Germany, which was destroyed completely and utterly after WWII. All its scienitists and engineers where either killed or migrated (many by force). Industries where either destroyed or in many cases, physically taken. Much of the male population decimated. Yet, within 15 years, West Germany became one of the top economies of the world. In contrast, all the oil of the Arabs, all the money, all the effort could not turn a single Gulf state into an economic powerhouse.

You can find that the Ottomans lived next door to Europe and gave them gunpowder. Yet, watched Europe develop from 1400-1800, without doing much to catch up. Yet in comparison, you see Japan, which, from the moment they came into contact with The West, quickly adapted and developed to challenge them.

I can give you a hundred other examples but suffice it to say that the case is rather solid to exemplify that:

1. The problem of the Muslim world is a common problem. Its not an Algerian problem, an Egyptian problem, a Pakistani problem, or an Indonesian problem. The virus for all purposes appears to have similar genetics.

2. The diagnosis therefore must be a common diagnosis.

Clearly our lack of faith isn't destroying us or the Netherlands would have long ceased to exist.

But we are not the Netherlands! Our "social genetics" are totally different from the West. We make the common mistake to think we can compare ourselves to the West, or apply its solutions without understanding our completely different societies.

Thus Turkey under Attaturk thought the same and decided that rejecting their language and culture and replacing it with European ones (down to the names of their streets) would turn them into a developed nation "like the West". This approach didn't work out. In contrast, Japan kept its culture, and built an economic model around its own culture (Kanban, Kanren-gaishas, etc) and succeeded.

The fact of the matter is simple. A race horse cannot be fed and trained as a camel, or vice versa. We have to have solutions rooted in our own cultures. Since our cultures are deeply influenced by Islam...

And you can implement the martian language in Pakistan and it wouldn't serve any purpose. I can get Einstein's papers translated into Wookiee with a few clicks, these aren't the 1920s. Focus more on the fact that the other actual Arabic speaking nations aren't going down the same path. This isn't when you can dope the people into submission, you must educate them.

Well, I think you don't do yourself justice here, and we've gone down to talking about doping. But let's leave that aside. The issue is this: no great nation uses the language of another to develop its sciences and technology. Thus, as a member of the education committee of PTI's IRW, I argued for Urdu to be used for the national curriculum. There are many varied and sophisticated arguments on both sides, and the matter has little to do with dope. We can discuss this at length if you like but it detracts from our topic. The matter is this, we were able to convince or helped convincing PTI to have this as a manifesto aim - to use Urdu as the national language, and the language eventually as for all curriculum. In the simplest terms - just as Germans use German, Japanese use Japanese, Koreans use Korean, Chinese use Chinese, French use French, Russians use Russian... all great engineering and technology leaders use their own language to study science and they excel - why? Because you can't grasp concepts as easily, and "play with them" in your mind as easily, as in your native language!

Drinking a lot of water can kill you, what's your point?

The basic point, which is the point essentially that Allama Iqbal, Allama Asad, Muhammad Abduh, Malek Bennabi, Ali Shariati.... and others are making (and this is a gross simplification but we can go deeper into it, but for now...), is this:

1. That the problem of the Muslim world is common across the board.

2. That the Muslim world is living in a state of Ignorance or Jahiliya or as Iqbal called it "Dead crust". i.e. we are a dead civilization or more politely, a post-civilization.

3. That the key element is culture and our society, that suffers from multiple major problems, many of them deriving from our religion (as our religion is intrinsically linked to our culture). (Thus for instance, khirad ko gholami sey...)

4. That both the problems and the solutions lie intrinsically with our culture and religion.

5. That any solution we apply, must not be cookie cutter solutions from the West, as our "soil" is fundamentally different. Thus development, democracy, education, R&D, etc has to be modified to our conditions very carefully.

6. That we have to stop being unserious about this, talking about headless chickens and drinking water and what not. This is a dead serious issue, and we need to put our collective brains to diagnose and solve these problems. Its not a mere debate or argument on the internet. As the grandson of one of the founders of Pakistan, its my biggest concern. Its something I have pondered over for 12 years, and only really began to grasp in the last 1 year or so. This is a very complex problem, and we have to take this dead seriously...

 

[d-fence]

@d-fence, I need to read that book by M. Asad. I have only ever read "Road to Mecca" by him. Until that happens, I can not really answer your question. To me the questions are indeed open-ended and the answers get warped under the weight of rhetoric and confusion.

I hope you would agree that 99% of what is written regarding this is indeed rhetorical in varying degrees of quality and therefore worthless.

But your question begins to loose its relevance once we contemplate the degree of resistance and obfuscation. That is the major problem today. Anyone who talks about politics and religion - as one must do in case of Pakistan gets taken to task by countless Seagull pseudo-scholars who descend making a lot of noise, crap all over and leave without having offered any alternative or solution.

I have become cynical of anyone who brings up jagirdars etc... As a nation, we have gone beyond such worries. Our problems have become existential in nature. Before we can talk about economic stratification, we need to decide who we are as a nation. The problem of identity is more severe and fundamental than economic or social issues.

The book is about a fifth of the size of the Road to Makkah and is available online. Google "This Law of Ours". You can also read my paper where I've been peddling this solution to PTI (without success) "Marching Beyond Waziristan Hussain"

Maybe you're cynical and you're right being cynical. But existential problems that Pakistan is presently facing may have far deeper latent sources. Thus, focusing only on the immediate may cause you to end up "fire fighting" without looking at the long-term holistic view.

What I know is this:

1. That specific segments of the power structure stopped Muhammad Asad's solution.

2. That there is a blow-back effect going on which is spiraling out of deep issues within Pak culture and religion.

When you mention that anyone who talks about politics and religion gets taken to task - that is part of the structural problem. Just because there is this taboo and closing of doors to meaningful dialogue, doesn't mean the problem is not there, or that its not solvable. Had Quaid lived a few more years, maybe even one more year, we would have seen it solved, with minimal fuss.

Suharwardy had the capacity to solve it too, but he was again taken out of the equation. After that it was essentially people beholden to the West, like Ayub Khan, or the pseudo-socialist Bhutto, or the opportunist Zia. I had my hopes up on IK, but things didn't work out as we had all hoped. But essentially, this is not a problem that is impossible to solve. Yet at the same time, if we solved it, we would have a chance to build an enlightened Islamic state the likes of which the world has not seen maybe even since Umar bin Abdul Aziz. These are the stakes.

And consider this - all of Pakistans present woes with the likes of the TTP would be solved at one go - with a state implementing (our version of) an Islamic state, and Islamic law, the TTP would have no grounds to recruit our youth, or to attack us. All insurgencies have their latent energy sources. We would take away the latent source of support for the TTP and their ilk.

We would also fundamentally take away the vacum that is left - that allows all this sectarianism and "jihadis" because in an Islamic state, no such groups are allowed, and no one has the authority to declare jihad other than the heads of the Islamic state.

The opportunity here is immense. But we need to stop fire-fighting to see the forest from the trees...

 

[Secur]

Let me take a quick stab at the question of why Islamic parties have not won elections.

First let me qualify myself. I started thinking about this in the winter of 2001, about this great divide between the "religious type" and the "secular type" in Pakistani society. I've spent the last 12 years pondering and researching about this. In the beginning I blamed the West, (like so many Muslims do). And the first book I ever wrote was all about how to counter the West.

But as I delved further, I realized that the biggest problem was within. I'm presently in my final year doing a PhD in Islamic Studies related to Islamic Civilization. In my researches I've found that, in the simplest terms:

If the Ummah was a boxer, and he keeps losing fight after fight, he can either blame his opponents or he can look in the mirror.

However, the Ummah largely fails to look in the mirror. Instead we blame everything and everybody. We live in denial.

Coming back to why the "Islamic type" fails to "win elections" or win anything for that matter. Logically there can be two options:

1. Something is wrong with Islam which makes them backward. Maybe Islam is not an effective solution for today. OR

2. There is something wrong with how they interpreted Islam, that they may have distorted it in the last 1400 years or so.

Essentially, these are then two camps: the "Reformist" who holds to point #2, and the "Modernist" or "Secularist" who holds to hypothesis #1.

Thank you for the effort .

Even though it is none of my business , sir , but are you a Pakistani , because you mention how you thought about the great divide in Pakistani society , however you carry both Argentinian flags ? If you wish not to answer it for any reason , simply ignore it . It doesn't matter , really . Now , that is interesting to hear that you have written a book , may I have a link or name too ? I commend your efforts though , most appreciable .

I started this analysis , when I had just started college , seeing the same divide between both groups , at that time I used to sympathize with Islamic parties - seeing their standing in the political arena , losing elections every time , failing to secure a majority or even a respectable number of seats and piggybacking on other parties . Then , I never thought of them being a part of problem , that Pakistan faces - extremism , intolerance and terrorism even though they had wholeheartedly supported and endorsed the actions of Commander of the Faithful in the 80's . But , then I realized their hypocritical approach towards thing , ready to talk the talk , but not walk the walk , not to mention - their dreams of idealistic system with a God chosen ruler - the details of which are hazy and vague and from the personal discussions with religious people - doesn't really seem really able to exist with the modern world in its old form and I came to understand a little , why the people of Pakistan who are considered Islamic aren't ready to vote for the same religious parties - because they aren't realist , do not consider the ' ground realities ' and they cant really be hoped to solve the problems of the nation - even though the other liberal ones haven't really been saints but full of corruption , misgovernance and mismanagement but people are usually quite pessimistic towards the ' Mullah brigade ' fearing them to perform worst than their secular or liberal counterparts .

Yeah , always the need to find an scapegoat for our own failures and blunders , not man enough to acknowledge our mistakes , in this case , U.S./Israel/India/Namibia/RAW/Mossad/One World Govt/Martians/Jews/Illuminati/Free Masons and God knows what-not ! Such has been , the mode of operation of Muslims from a long time now . Denial is the order of the day and Muslims are ready to take rumors/hearsay/conspiracy theories over established facts and recorded history at any time of the day .

I would go with the second , since there's no unity and no consensus on what exactly is this ' Shariat ' and ' Khilafat ' because there are a million and one sects , each having different versions and variants of Islam , lack of tolerance for other's viewpoints and gross misinterpretation of the religion , according to my analysis .

Feel free to contribute and add more to that .

Can anyone tell me how secular countries are ANY better and dont have THEIR share of problems?

Still a thousand times better than the so called Islamic countries ? Because Muslims enjoy more religious freedom and characteristics of a welfare state under infidels than they do , under the same Muslim brethren today ?

 

[Secur]

180 mil people sitting in a majlis...perfect. Oh wait, obviously no women. And yeah, minus the minorities too. And the shias. And the unpopular ethnicities.
Oh wait, we're back where we started.

Perfect Now , go check the meaning of the word ' idealism ' and you will understand , what I am talking about , all along .

 

[Dubious]

Still a thousand times better than the so called Islamic countries ? Because Muslims enjoy more religious freedom and characteristics of a welfare state under infidels than they do , under the same Muslim brethren today ?

Well, I say learn up ISLAM then think twice before you say something Islamic and keep your sarcasm with yourself...I can see how much knowledge you have about Islam...

 

[Secur]

Well, I say learn up ISLAM then think twice before you say something Islamic and keep your sarcasm with yourself...I can see how much knowledge you have about Islam...

Take the lenses of bias off . Maam , I know a lot more about Islam than you think , researched a lot about it , in the early adolescence . There was a time when I used to be more religious than I am currently . But just because I am not religious now , doesn't really mean that I am commenting on these topic , without any prior knowledge and didn't really learn nothing from the teenage endeavors for Islam . I am sure that I can surprise a whole lot of these religious people , with blind faith cheering loudly without seeing or realizing the situation on ground with my knowledge of the religion . Thank you for the sarcasm , but again I expected an answer better than that . Why not start to compare and see where we stand in the committee of nations , madam ?

 

[Dubious]

Take the lenses of bias off . Maam , I know a lot more about Islam than you think , researched a lot about it , in the early adolescence .

Had you done what you say you wouldnt be trying to equate two oxymorons...

There was a time when I used to be more religious than I am currently .

IN MY BOOKS there is religious and not religious...SIMPLE you try any less or more than that you are an extremist...

But just because I am not religious now , doesn't really mean that I am commenting on these topic , without any prior knowledge and didn't really learn nothing from the teenage endeavors for Islam .

Well, ONLY YOU alone know what you read and where from...

I am sure that I can surprise a whole lot of these religious people , with blind faith cheering loudly without seeing or realizing the situation on ground with my knowledge of the religion . Thank you for the sarcasm , but again I expected an answer better than that . Why not start to compare and see where we stand in the committee of nations , madam ?

@Secur I dont go around preaching ISLAM = what people are doing nor do I like that in the same sentence....What people are doing has been happening since day 1 that is why we have msgrs coming to us...What Islam really is no one practices because EVERYONE seems to think they know what they are doing based on what their forefathers was doing...No one bothered to go back and recheck ....And then we have a bunch of MOLVI sahab who are molvi coz either they are the eldest in the town or have some strong backing and voters...VERY FEW are Molvi because they know a thing or 2...

So dont talk about WHAT PEOPLE ARE DOING and NEVER call it Islam UNLESS what they are doing REALLY IS Islam...

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

Pakistan should become the 14th province of Saudia

Happy now?


Seriously, drop it.

 

[474474]

Perfect Now , go check the meaning of the word ' idealism ' and you will understand , what I am talking about , all along .

Too much punctuation bruh, repeat pl0x.