Pakistan should be a Secular State

[Chak Bamu]

Yara, I get exactly from where you are coming and I know ALL the facts and side effects of nationalism.... the problem is I'm more of a pragmatist..... you are trying to implement the approach of a "sunnar" (goldsmith) to a unsalvageable nation with 189,999,999 million fools who are divided on 100 different issues...... I'm not saying that my approach is entirely correct, it's just an elixir you can feed to the population to slowly and gradually weed them off the **** they are on presently.....

Why does a nation unite when we go to war with India? Whatever dude, we should stop here and not waste our precious time.... there are real things in life that need to be taken care of.... ciao....

Bhai, you seem to believe that all is lost. No it aint. Have some belief in Pakistan as a vision. We may not be up to it. But it is not going to vanish anytime soon.

Our problems are tied with our sense of identity. The present crisis is a necessary rite of passage. For how long can we afford to avoid looking at ourselves in the mirror? We can not look at Turkey or Egypt, or Iran, or Saudi Arabia. We have to look within for answers. We need to find our own answers.

 

[Hyperion]

Dude, it's the fatigue of 20 years, waiting for something, anything, nice to become of the nation....

Bhai, you seem to believe that all is lost. No it aint. Have some belief in Pakistan as a vision. We may not be up to it. But it is not going to vanish anytime soon.

Our problems are tied with our sense of identity. The present crisis is a necessary rite of passage. For how long can we afford to avoid looking at ourselves in the mirror? We can not look at Turkey or Egypt, or Iran, or Saudi Arabia. We have to look within for answers. We need to find our own answers.

 

[Developereo]

Rather than getting hung up on labels, perhaps we should work backwards: define the goal and see how we get there.

What kind of society do we want in Pakistan?
- equal rights for all citizens of any (or no) religion.
- a society which reflects the Islamic mores shared by the majority.
- an appreciation of our full cultural heritage, including Arabic, Persian and Hindu influences.
- respect for individual rights, subject to conformity with above rules.

Keep in mind that Western democracies contain many Judeo-Christian cultural elements without sacrificing secularism, so it is certainly possible to have a liberal democracy with an Islamic cultural flavor. For example, there is no basic human right to drink alcohol, watch pornography, or go to strip clubs. If the majority feels that such things do not belong in the society, they are certainly free to ban them. However, right to education, housing and employment are basic rights, which can not be taken away by majority diktat.

 

[krash]

Dude, it's the fatigue of 20 years, waiting for something, anything, nice to become of the nation....

Tou yar intizar kis cheez ka? Mar de chalang aik dafa bheech mein, phir ar ya par. Marna ya tou jeet ke hai ya lartay huay.

Rather than getting hung up on labels, perhaps we should work backwards: define the goal and see how we get there.

What kind of society do we want in Pakistan?
- equal rights for all citizens of any (or no) religion.
- a society which reflects the Islamic mores shared by the majority.
- an appreciation of our full cultural heritage, including Arabic, Persian and Hindu influences.
- respect for individual rights, subject to conformity with above rules.

Keep in mind that Western democracies contain many Judeo-Christian cultural elements without sacrificing secularism, so it is certainly possible to have a liberal democracy with an Islamic cultural flavor. For example, there is no basic human right to drink alcohol, watch pornography, or go to strip clubs. If the majority feels that such things do not belong in the society, they are certainly free to ban them. However, right to education, housing and employment are basic rights, which can not be taken away by majority diktat.

A good point that I could not convey. Another good example would be how drugs and prostitution are legalized in the Netherlands and not in England, the US, etc. Secularism is pretty malleable and broad at the same time.

 

[Hyperion]

There is no profit in political partaking or nation building, unless you are a Zardari...... Nawaz et al......

Buhut shukria, I love who I am, where I am, and the road I am on......

Tou yar intizar kis cheez ka? Mar de chalang aik dafa bheech mein, phir ar ya par. Marna ya tou jeet ke hai ya lartay huay.

 

[Spring Onion]

Be secular molecular or sickular just bring back Bhutto's era

 

[somebozo]

Islam ruined Pakistan, time to dump it in the arabian sea along with all mullahs. Convert all mosques to libraries and all madrases to proper schools. Pakistan needs a saddam hussien.

 

[Developereo]

Another good example would be how drugs and prostitution are legalized in the Netherlands and not in England, the US, etc. Secularism is pretty malleable and broad at the same time.

There is an 'escape clause' in secularism which allows for cultural chauvinism. And, since culture is often influenced by religion, this allows religious preferences to by imposed under the guise of national culture.

The trick is to use this escape clause in moderation.

 

[hussain0216]

Islam ruined Pakistan, time to dump it in the arabian sea along with all mullahs. Convert all mosques to libraries and all madrases to proper schools. Pakistan needs a saddam hussien.

Dont talk crap,,,,


Whatever we are we are a muslim nations where the vast majority are conservative muslims (whether they commit sins or whether they are perfect or not), any road we take MUST take that into account.

This is not the early 20th century where we can just force feed people liberalism or extreme secularism, People will react including our military and security forces

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

As for the gentleman, @LEGENDARY WARRIOR, yelling Khilafa, pray tell me what the system of Khilafa is.

Thank You for taking interest Well the system of Khilafat actually works on the principle of Masjid (Mosque). Its like every town would have its own Masjid. Not like the ones we have today . Masjid in Islamic system actually works as a community centre (not only for Muslims but even for non-Muslims, as seen in the Holy Prophet (S.A.A.W)'s time). Dealing with all administrative affairs of the town along with addressing spiritual needs. This makes the people of the town directly connected with the administrative office of the town.
The centre along with all this also serves as a training centre for its people in informal education and religious wisdom, plus provides them with a platform to express their skills, knowledge, experience etc. All this allows the BEST PERSON from the town (in respect of religious wisdom, leadership and knowledge of the world) to become the Imaam of the Masjid. This Imaam is obviously also the Administrator of the town.
And so a city will a have central Masjid that will select the best person (Imaam of a town) as Administrator of the city.
This system goes on and would ultimately form a Majlis-e-Shoora at the Fedral Level, which will select by process of voting the the BEST member among them to become the Caliph of the State.

And since there was no Khilafa at the time of the Prophet (S.A.W) how did it become the Islamic way.

Khalifa literally means "one who replaces someone else who left or died". So first of all He (S.A.A.W) was'nt replacing anyone but was establishing a system. The system was later established by people closest to Him (the four Caliphs) and that is enough for us to call it an Islamic way.

Then tell me why misswaq is not the Islamic way of brushing your teeth or riding camels for that matter.

Misswaq is the Islamic way of brushing your teeth... I guess you never went through the hadith of Prophet (S.A.A.W) that if it was'nt difficult for the people He (S.A.A.W) would have made Miswaaq a compulsion.
Guess you must learn to differentiate between sunnah and farz or wajib...

 

[Spring Onion]

Islam ruined Pakistan, time to dump it in the arabian sea along with all mullahs. Convert all mosques to libraries and all madrases to proper schools. Pakistan needs a saddam hussien.

Start from rabwah . lets tear it down and convert it to big university

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

Kid I was not born yesterday. I have read about it. But if you wish to discuss Khilafat. You need to open a thread about it. From whence does Majlis-e-Shooraa come? If it is appointed, then who appoints the members? If it is elected, then what is wrong with democracy? Your ideas do not seem to be well-thought to begin with, and you wish to make me 'understand'?

I am very clear about the system perhaps you should not read it with narrow mindedness and why to open a new thread. Lets have a discussion here. As far as how Khilafat works, you can go through this post of mine: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...stan-should-secular-state-12.html#post4642731

These countries get no respect. When was the last time you heard anything good about Lesotho or Swaziland? None of the Absolute monarchies have anything of value except oil in Arab Monarchies. People go there to earn petrodollars. And that is about it.

No one's favouring the monarch rule. My point simply negated the point who think Khilafat being an old system is inapplicable in the modern world.

Never said that Khilafat is a system of no value. In fact it would be an excellent system for us Muslims. I just do not believe that today's Muslims can accomplish this. I already told you the prescription as I see it. Take it of leave it.

Well then don't blame the system. You can blame us in the same way we can't control corruption, in the same way we are unable to control situation in Balochistan or Karachi.
In fact if Muslims are unable to accomplish the Khilafat system, where have we gone with the democracy. Not only with Pakistan but also with the Arab world. Look at Egypt now..

I am sorry, you are talking about Rashidun era. It was over within a generation and ended with a political schism, effects of which we still see around us.

The Rashidun era ended within a generation not because Khilafat itself was weak but because was conspiracies that took over.

There was debate (Mashwara) about major decisions, the first two Khulafa were open to criticism and welcomed difference of opinion. But there really were no checks & balances. Notice Hazrat Umar (R.A.)'s decision to abolish Jaziyah for old people. Or his order to not have a soldier be away from his family for more than four months. Also note Hazrat Abu Bakr (R.A.) over-ruling Sahaba on matter or taking on Munkareen of Zakat in direct military confrontation.

What kind of checks & balances are you talking about?? Were they involved in corruption or any anti-state consipiracy? NO!
The decisions about Harzat Abu Bakr and Hazrat Umar that you are talking about might have faced criticism at that time but today we know what they did was right! In fact these decisions are praised today.

Those were great Sahaba, and still there implementation of Khilafat was replaced by Kingship. For the next 1250 years, Muslims kept facade of Khilafat by applying the title of Khalifah to Kings. I am sorry I do not see how anyone in their right minds can expect such a system to be established without learning anything from the intervening centuries and evolution of political philosophy.

Indeed those were great Sahaba. And that is why I believe that the system they brought was The Great System. The generations that came later established the Kingship rule because of the dispute between the Muslims was between 2 families.

We have Taliban types who wish to call Mullah Umar Ameer-ul-Mumineen. I have no problem in calling him so myself provided he is elected by majority of Muslims (fat chance, that). Also then, we have HuT fanatics making a lot of noise for Khilafat, but offering almost nothing as to how it might actually work. They have their very own Khalifah-in-waiting somewhere. No thanks.

Well, they are not my ideal either.. I don't refer to them for this...

So then where are we? Nowhere yet! But it could be better in a few decades provided most Muslim countries accept democracy as a system, develop institutions, develop a means to manage sectarianism. Once a political culture of Constitutionalism, Transparency, Openness, Tolerance prevails and we see routine changes of government via elections, we can then graduate to evolving structures like EU, etc... An elected luminary at that level could be a Khlifah. Happy?

Khilafat offers all of this. Please follow the link above..

 

[ajpirzada]

@Aeronaut

I would have answered some of the points , in your post if I wasn't low on time , at the moment .

But for the moment , let us just ask the question ' Why , any Islamic party with an Islamic agenda in Pakistan hasn't been able to win the elections by a majority/near-majority/total majority/majority required to legislate in the last 60 years - the last being most prominent since only by that , can they get their idealist system implemented through a democratic way in this country but only piggybacked on other liberal parties/army/dictatorships ? What does that tell us about the thinking of a common Pakistani - barring the ' influence ' for a moment I talked earlier in my post here - assuming everyone is voting freely without any pressure or influence ?

well to start with, it was not the other religious parties which played any role in the ideology of pakistan. it was the Muslim league. and then it was the secularist Ghulam Muhammad who used the excuse of Ahmadi controversy to undemocratically dismiss Nanimuddin in 1953 followed by induction of ministers who were advocates of secularist ideology for the first time. then it was under the dictatorial rule of musharraf that the secular ideology flourished in Pakistan.
yes, the religious parties took it to the other extreme during the zia ul haq period. but it was the secularists who first derailed the ideology of pakistan and consequently destroyed the ideological wealth of original muslim league.

and finally none of the elections have been conducted on the basis of islamic ideology of pakistan. were you to conduct elections based on one party supporting islamic ideology and the other standing against it, you'll come to realize the reality. and none of the major parties have done it openly because they know the risk.

there is considerable tendency in the secularists to advocate their agenda using undemocratic means to overthrow the regime opposing their views. see the Egypt case. all the secularists who earlier were campaigning for the human rights are now silent against the killing of morsi supporters who were robbed of their democratic right to rule. similar attempt was made in turkey but due to strong government, they could not overthrow it. this is not the say that the opposite does not happen. but to say that the secularists are some peace makers who care about human rights and democratic principles is a sham.

 

[474474]

Basically we are less islam driven and more driven by nationalism .Politicians uses islam wherever the saw the opportunity to full fill their dirty objectives .Today in our country islam mostly exists in politics and less in our real lives and we are the product of confused ideology and distorted history.I personally know many foreigners who were shocked when they saw Pakistan with their own eyes rather than the perception about pakistan they developed from media.According to them it is less islamic than most muslim countries.Tell me in which pure islamic country like saudi arabia etc people have sex and drink in mujra parties?.Where they have a vulgar film industry like ours?Our banking system is not islamic and almost all pakistanis have interest bearing accounts.In islam there is just nikkah and walima but here we celebrate mehdis and barats .In which islamic nation there is a licensed alcohol manufacturing company(muree brewary in pakistan) and 90% of their customers are muslims?Practically we are secular people living in a islamic state.

*Hypocrites. Thank you.
And no bullshit mulla can take away our culture.

Islam has its own system. KHILAFAT.
People in Pakistan have adopted the western form of government and blame Islam for not being compatible with it. WHICH IS WRONG!!

All hail great 'khalifa' @LeGenDARY_WARRIOR

 

[aakash_2410]

I have stated before that we need no Indian to tell us how we should run our country. You people are so hypocritical that it stinks now, on one side you want to establish 'hindutva' and end whatever secularism is left in India and on the other side you want to have a secular Pakistan. Thats cute!

Lool Who wants a Hindu India? If Indian people wanted a 'Hindu nation' they would have got Hindu India by now. Specially when BJP was in power for 100 odd years. So please, don't generalise. You're a mod after all. In fact even the last Hindu nation (Nepal) has ceased to be Hindu nation anymore. Even that's a republic now since the fall of monarchy.

Plus Hindu India will be a dream come true for Pakistanis. 'See! We told you! India's only for Hindus!' Just like secular Pakistan will be a dream come true for Indians. 'If you wanted to be secular then what was the need of making Pakistan in the first place?'. Either of these will be detrimental for both of these countries.