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Pakistan should be a Secular State

Dear Brother Chak Bamu,

Its truly refreshing to read your posts, I must say I have begun to look forward to them. I do have however a bit of an argument here against the statement:
We in Pakistan are confronting open-ended questions with no definitive answers in sight.

Is there such a we? And who are the actual decision makers of that "we"? Are we confronting this major issue or have we been sweeping it under the carpet to our great detriment since the death of Quaid?

About definitive answers - the man the Quaid put in charge of finding a definitive answer did! The department was shut down but he didn't stop - he went ahead and wrote a book about it. Are we so callous as to not even bother to look at this solution and continue the mono-tone that there is "no clear solution"?

In the end, I think that an honest, objective intellectual assessment becomes the need of the hour. At the same time, as long as the elite is derived from the jagirdar and the "pseudo-industrialist", and the category of men that were more than happy to serve the British, no meaningful solution is ever really possible.
 
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My friend, the first thing Ata Turk did was he got rid the "Arabic" script....... anyone in posession of such a script was hung from the poles..... and the same should be done in Pakistan too.... too much takfiri propaganda available inside Pakistan in that script..... it has to be changed to either Latin or Chinese for all that I care.... population has to be made to forget it....

Viola, we have found the answer to our conundrum.. Now all that remains is to convince the remaining 179,999,999 Pakistanis and our job is done.

Seriously, what have you been smoking? You think that a script is to blame? Next you will find fault with our languages, and then our clothes, and then our religious gatherings and practices. Ataturk did all that.

You need a dictator backed by a willing and obedient armed forces to do all that. That would be extreme regression my friend. We did not come this far to go back to militant nationalism of Ataturk of 1920s.
 
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My friend, the first thing Ata Turk did was he got rid the "Arabic" script....... anyone in posession of such a script was hung from the poles..... and the same should be done in Pakistan too.... too much takfiri propaganda available inside Pakistan in that script..... it has to be changed to either Latin or Chinese for all that I care.... population has to be made to forget it....

I love you, as a brother - No Homo ! :bad:

But thats still got to be up there with few of the most retarded things I've ever read - Script ! :kiss3:

In case you didn't notice but Urdu & Arabic aren't mutually intelligible nor is the Script for that matter which is nastaleeq - Persian Script, not the Arabic ! And you do realize that some of that propaganda pieces are also written in English....quite a few in fact !

Lets face it changing the Script by Ataturk, no matter how much I admire him for other things, was nothing more than him getting the Turks to be more European than the Europeans themselves !
 
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Dude... never said that it can be implemented in Pakistan.... Pakistan for better or worse is a loss cause..... there is one ESSENTIAL component missing in the Pakistani population that NOTHING good can happen to it.... the component is unquestionable nationalism... we are an extremely confused bunch without an identity of our own........ the history that common man is aware of is limited to what he/she was taught in "official" text books, coupled with Islamic history from Islamiat... we can not even discern if we are Arabs or what?

Btw, even if I were high, I'd be more in my senses than you fed upon "cooked-up" facts.

Viola, we have found the answer to our conundrum.. Now all that remains is to convince the remaining 179,999,999 Pakistanis and our job is done.

Seriously, what have you been smoking? You think that a script is to blame? Next you will find fault with our languages, and then our clothes, and then our religious gatherings and practices. Ataturk did all that.

You need a dictator backed by a willing and obedient armed forces to do all that. That would be extreme regression my friend. We did not come this far to go back to militant nationalism of Ataturk of 1920s.
 
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Read up on reasons why Turkish script was changed from Arabic to Latin........ same situation exists in Pakistan today..... I'm not saying it can be implemented.... of course it can not be implemented in Pakistan...... we can't even decide upon one school system for our kids....... which has resulted in ever increasing margin between the haves and have-nots...

Btw, Ata-Turk didn't do it to be "European", he did it because the country was divided upon same sectarian lines as Pakistan is today...... there was so much "anti-nation" material in Arabic, sponsored by you know who, that he had no option to start from the root cause of the trouble.... mind you, there was no internet at that time.... :P

I love you, as a brother - No Homo ! :bad:

But thats still got to be up there with few of the most retarded things I've ever read - Script ! :kiss3:

In case you didn't notice but Urdu & Arabic aren't mutually intelligible nor is the Script for that matter which is nastaleeq - Persian Script, not the Arabic ! And you do realize that some of that propaganda pieces are also written in English....quite a few in fact !

Lets face it changing the Script by Ataturk, no matter how much I admire him for other things, was nothing more than him getting the Turks to be more European than the Europeans themselves !
 
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Read up on reasons why Turkish script was changed from Arabic to Latin........ same situation exists in Pakistan today..... I'm not saying it can be implemented.... of course it can not be implemented in Pakistan...... we can't even decide upon one school system for our kids....... which has resulted in ever increasing margin between the haves and have-nots...

Btw, Ata-Turk didn't do it to be "European", he did it because the country was divided upon same sectarian lines as Pakistan is today...... there was so much "anti-nation" material in Arabic, sponsored by you know who, that he had no option to start from the root cause of the trouble.... mind you, there was no internet at that time.... :P

I have read it brother...you forget I said that I admired Ataturk ! :agree:

It didn't make any sense then & it doesn't make any sense now ! :kiss3:

The brutal truth is that he tried to out-did the Europeans on many fronts by being more European than even them; the irony is that they still consider Turkey to be an outsider !

No amount of script changing is going to bring about the elimination of 'anti-nation' material because its not in Arabic....its in Urdu & to a lesser extent in English ! And as long as factories of intolerance exist & have a market where those charged with Governance don't really give a foOk - Its going to continue to be read & spread !
 
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@d-fence, I need to read that book by M. Asad. I have only ever read "Road to Mecca" by him. Until that happens, I can not really answer your question. To me the questions are indeed open-ended and the answers get warped under the weight of rhetoric and confusion.

I hope you would agree that 99% of what is written regarding this is indeed rhetorical in varying degrees of quality and therefore worthless.

But your question begins to loose its relevance once we contemplate the degree of resistance and obfuscation. That is the major problem today. Anyone who talks about politics and religion - as one must do in case of Pakistan gets taken to task by countless Seagull pseudo-scholars who descend making a lot of noise, crap all over and leave without having offered any alternative or solution.

I have become cynical of anyone who brings up jagirdars etc... As a nation, we have gone beyond such worries. Our problems have become existential in nature. Before we can talk about economic stratification, we need to decide who we are as a nation. The problem of identity is more severe and fundamental than economic or social issues.
 
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Word: Ata-Turk was more of a true Muslim at heart that 190,000,000 Pakistani population combined and squared..... only one person who could match him, wisdom to wisdom was Jinnah.......... :woot:

I have read it brother...you forget I said that I admired Ataturk ! :agree:

It didn't make any sense then & it doesn't make any sense now ! :kiss3:

The brutal truth is that he tried to out-did the Europeans on many fronts by being more European than even them; the irony is that they still consider Turkey to be an outsider !
 
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Word: Ata-Turk was more of a true Muslim at heart that 190,000,000 Pakistani population combined and squared..... only one person who could match him, wisdom to wisdom was Jinnah.......... :woot:

Beraa gharaaak ! :lol:

Pataaa nahin Khan kaun saaa novel partaaa rahaa haiii ? :omghaha:

Ataturk was most probably an agnostic or a completely non practicing Muslim like (say!) Zenidin Zidane !
 
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Dude... never said that it can be implemented in Pakistan.... Pakistan for better or worse is a loss cause..... there is one ESSENTIAL component missing in the Pakistani population that NOTHING good can happen to it.... the component is unquestionable nationalism... we are an extremely confused bunch without an identity of our own........ the history that common man is aware of is limited to what he/she was taught in "official" text books, coupled with Islamic history from Islamiat... we can not even discern if we are Arabs or what?

Btw, even if I were high, I'd be more in my senses than you fed upon "cooked-up" facts.

I would ignore the personal criticism to my astonishment at your idea. You do not know enough about me to make an unwarranted generalization.

I am wary of nationalists. They are just as disruptive, narrowminded, and easily roused to violence as militant Islamists or militant communists. In the last three centuries, more people have died for nationalism than any other ideology. It is a poison if it gets to your head. There needs to be an over-arching philosophy to harness positive attributes of nationalism. It is important to note that nationalism is not an end in itself.

As a subservient part of one's identity, there is nothing wrong with Nationalism, but it can not be allowed to reign supreme. It is a perfect recipe for disaster by itself. Recent history attests to it.
 
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Chupp......... no more of such garbage from you about my revered leader.... :pissed:

:yay:

Beraa gharaaak ! :lol:

Pataaa nahin Khan kaun saaa novel partaaa rahaa haiii ? :omghaha:

Ataturk was most probably an agnostic or a completely non practicing Muslim like (say!) Zenidin Zidane !
 
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It is interesting to note that Turkey, under Islam, was a ranking superpower of the world. As Muhammad Asad notes, after Attaturk, they are nothing but a nation like a hundred others.

And as ironic as that is, its recent economic success has only come under Erdogan, whose Islamic approach is now not only being seen as successful but is seeping into all corners of their country including the military.

We are headless chickens running every which way blind hoping to smash into the solution for all our problems. Not only can we not see, smell and hear to guide our selves but we are also short on one standard issue brain rendering us incapable of any comprehensible or incomprehensible thought.

What we fail to realize is that there are a billion different ways of achieving economic prosperity; get lucky like the Arabs, be as hardworking as the Japanese or the Germans, ride your might like the US, etc., etc. On top of that we have come to the conclusion that our dismal performance in the economic, international and domestic spheres is because we lack in a strong religious modus operandi. And then, ironically, we demand that it be enforced on us from the top. Replace the religious with the so-called secular and you get the exact same stinking broth.

This discussion is futile, trivial and completely inconsequential. There are purely Islamic societies which have long been forgotten as dust while there are also "sons of Satan" who have ruled the world for hundreds of years. The vice versa holds just as true. The problem lays more in the open. All our religious, cultural, economic, political problems, or any other for that matter, stem from the simple fact that we are a dishonest people, to ourselves, our countrymen, our country and everything else that stands anywhere. We are a corrupt, dishonest, conniving, thieving, cheating and self-mutilating people who have always attributed our failings to something which is out of our control, lets us sleep at nights. There is no code or structure in the world that would sanction any of this and yet we do it. Secularism, Islam, Hinduism, Atheism, Scientology, the Mods on this forum, the GMs on the servers of World of Warcraft, nothing instills or enables us to be dishonest and yet we are. And we don't want to see that. We also conveniently disregard the fact that there have been many nations where Messiahs/Great men have come or been sent all to result in nothing. Clearly our lack of faith isn't destroying us or the Netherlands would have long ceased to exist. We desecrate everything that is held Holly by every single school of thought and then we have the audacity to not own up to it. You can't even stop yourselves from stealing from your own brother, what religious or secular values are you going to uphold...

Forget Islam and forget secular thought. We first need to introduce the values into our society which are innate to every human being and require no consensus or conscious thought. You can become economically successful with or without religious/secularism. What we need more is to build a society because the state stands on that society not the other way around. Pakistan was not the property of Mr. Jinnah and his vision is not the DNA of everything that is Pakistan. He was a visionary who advised you, read him, understand him and see what it holds. As a democratic and free country, you the people can choose which ever direction you want to go and the state will follow. The question is can we do that? Can we actually be more than just the impotent bags of meat sitting in our homes? We have already chosen the direction going over a cliff and the state is following us right over it. But we are so arrogant that we are still stuck on the inconsequential.

Dude... never said that it can be implemented in Pakistan.... Pakistan for better or worse is a loss cause..... there is one ESSENTIAL component missing in the Pakistani population that NOTHING good can happen to it.... the component is unquestionable nationalism... we are an extremely confused bunch without an identity of our own........ the history that common man is aware of is limited to what he/she was taught in "official" text books, coupled with Islamic history from Islamiat... we can not even discern if we are Arabs or what?

Btw, even if I were high, I'd be more in my senses than you fed upon "cooked-up" facts.

Meh....others have risen from far worse. It is not the divide but the utter moronic loss of resolve that is sinking us. Hint for the wise. The people were more divided in the 1940s.

And you can implement the martian language in Pakistan and it wouldn't serve any purpose. I can get Einstein's papers translated into Wookiee with a few clicks, these aren't the 1920s. Focus more on the fact that the other actual Arabic speaking nations aren't going down the same path. This isn't when you can dope the people into submission, you must educate them.

I would ignore the personal criticism to my astonishment at your idea. You do not know enough about me to make an unwarranted generalization.

I am wary of nationalists. They are just as disruptive, narrowminded, and easily roused to violence as militant Islamists or militant communists. In the last three centuries, more people have died for nationalism than any other ideology. It is a poison if it gets to your head. There needs to be an over-arching philosophy to harness positive attributes of nationalism. It is important to note that nationalism is not an end in itself.

As a subservient part of one's identity, there is nothing wrong with Nationalism, but it can not be allowed to reign supreme. It is a perfect recipe for disaster by itself. Recent history attests to it.

Drinking a lot of water can kill you, what's your point?
 
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Yara, I get exactly from where you are coming and I know ALL the facts and side effects of nationalism.... the problem is I'm more of a pragmatist..... you are trying to implement the approach of a "sunnar" (goldsmith) to a unsalvageable nation with 189,999,999 million fools who are divided on 100 different issues...... I'm not saying that my approach is entirely correct, it's just an elixir you can feed to the population to slowly and gradually weed them off the **** they are on presently.....

Why does a nation unite when we go to war with India? Whatever dude, we should stop here and not waste our precious time.... there are real things in life that need to be taken care of.... ciao....

I would ignore the personal criticism to my astonishment at your idea. You do not know enough about me to make an unwarranted generalization.

I am wary of nationalists. They are just as disruptive, narrowminded, and easily roused to violence as militant Islamists or militant communists. In the last three centuries, more people have died for nationalism than any other ideology. It is a poison if it gets to your head. There needs to be an over-arching philosophy to harness positive attributes of nationalism. It is important to note that nationalism is not an end in itself.

As a subservient part of one's identity, there is nothing wrong with Nationalism, but it can not be allowed to reign supreme. It is a perfect recipe for disaster by itself. Recent history attests to it.
 
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Word: Ata-Turk was more of a true Muslim at heart that 190,000,000 Pakistani population combined and squared..... only one person who could match him, wisdom to wisdom was Jinnah.......... :woot:

Ata-Turk was a strategist. He used Islamists when it suited him and dumped them once they had helped him win the war. His personal philosophy is anybody's guess. But any attempt would have to begin with his education and his being a part of 'Young Turks'.

It is pointless to compare such different personalities as Mustafa Kamal and Muhammad Ali Jinnah. Different backgrounds, different circumstances, different accomplishments.

I remember reading about Mustafa Kamal in my syllabus as a young boy. It was a very neutered version. I hope, if his presence is still there in Pakistani syllabus books, that it is introduced later and with an indication to his controversial decisions. I remember being perturbed when I found more about him. I did not want to believe, but had to... He can not be an ideal for us.
 
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Yes, they have........ but there was always something that united them...... well lets not get into that atm....

Btw, loved the "wookie" comment.... made my day! :omghaha:

Meh....others have risen from far worse. It is not the divide but the utter moronic loss of resolve that is sinking us. Hint for the wise. The people were more divided in 1947.

And you can implement the martian language in Pakistan and it wouldn't sever any purpose. I can get Einstein's papers translated into Wookiee with a few clicks, these aren't the 1920s. Focus more on the fact that the other actual Arabic speaking nations aren't going down the same path. This isn't when you can dope the people into submission, you must educate them.
 
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