Pakistan should be a Secular State

[Anotherangle]

I would like to mention a short episode from Shahabnama (biography of Qudrutullah Shahab) I do not have the book at the moment, but I hope I can recall almost the whole episode; he writes ' when he was the secretary of Ayub Khan, a proposal was being seriously under discussion to make Pakistan a secular state in 1962 constitution and remove Islamic Republic from the name; having heard that he approached Ayub Khan and said "sir, if you take Islam out of Pakistan, will there be any Pakistan remaining? Ayub replied after two/ three days, " You were right, if there is no Islam, there is no Pakistan ( or what is the objective of making Pakistan?)" . The point is why in the world you made Pakistan? Just to get 5 million muslims killed, or to make Jinnah the governor general of a new country and Liaqat Khan her prime minister?

 

[Chak Bamu]

Start from rabwah . lets tear it down and convert it to big university

If you read his tweets carefully, you would find that he is a die-hard Zionist. His diction, rhetoric, and views mirror those of someone who goes by the name of Faisal on twitter and his handle is Jew_Pakistani.

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

Its about time for Pakistan to become secular from current state of semi-secular. Give every citizen equal rights, by that i mean abolish law which say only muslim can be PM or president. Every kid born in Pakistan shouldn't be discriminated based on his religion, he/she can dream of becoming president and PM one day if they are good enough. Let ahmedi call themselves what they want , Muslims or otherwise.

 

[HRK]

I would like to mention a short episode from Shahabnama (biography of Qudrutullah Shahab) I do not have the book at the moment, but I hope I can recall almost the whole episode; he writes ' when he was the secretary of Ayub Khan, a proposal was being seriously under discussion to make Pakistan a secular state in 1962 constitution and remove Islamic Republic from the name; having heard that he approached Ayub Khan and said "sir, if you take Islam out of Pakistan, will there be any Pakistan remaining? Ayub replied after two/ three days, " You were right, if there is no Islam, there is no Pakistan ( or what is the objective of making Pakistan?)" . The point is why in the world you made Pakistan? Just to get 5 million muslims killed, or to make Jinnah the governor general of a new country and Liaqat Khan her prime minister?

He asked that question at the time he submit his resignation......if i remember correctly.....

I don't know y after every few months people start this discussion.....what extra they want from Pakistan as an state to be seculare......to me these people are either ashamed to be called as muslim......or they are too weak to bear the burden of their Identity.....

 

[HRK]

This will help....
secularpakistan.wordpress.com/2010/01/26/jinnahs-will-to-the-nation-he-founded/

My dear the link you provide is the link of a blog....do you think it is credible enough.....???

even if somehow I go with the date available against that post as reference (again no link of archive is given, therefore a big"?" on that reference)

where should I place the later life of Jinnah.....???

should I ignore it completely or should I think that he has change his ideology.....???

My dear it not that easy to talk about history and historical personalities.....a blog can not change history

 

[Kompromat]

When we don't understand something there are basically two choices:

1. Either we haven't fully understood it or understood it wrongly.

2. There is in fact something wrong with the matter at hand.

Who or what is a caliph system, and whether that is ordained by God or not is a matter open to debate. There is no Quranic verse that established a clear constitutional method of how to form government.

What is made clear is that we have to live by Islamic law (which is open to debate, what that exactly is or isn't, for instance, the vast majority of "fiqh" was created by scholars long after the Prophet (peace be upon him)).

What is clear is tyrannical rule and injustice is against Islam.

What is clear is that the government is to serve the people, not the people serving a despot.

Again, I cannot emphasize enough. Quaid established a department to deal with this problem called the Department of Islamic Reconstruction. This department was sidelined after he passed away but the head of the department has CLEARLY layed out what should be done. The only confusion is being created by people who don't like that solution; i.e. secularist elite / traditional ulema.

 

[Kompromat]

Its about time for Pakistan to become secular from current state of semi-secular.

What evidence do you offer for your assertion of Pakistan being a 'Semi Secular' state, please help me understand.

I refuse to accept your idea because i wholeheartedly subscribe to Iqbal's ideas on this debate.

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Give every citizen equal rights

,

Which Pakistani citizen does not have Equal rights?

by that i mean abolish law which say only muslim can be PM or president.

If a country is a 97% Muslim country, why is it wrong to have such a provision, moreover how would it help Pakistan become a better state if we were to have a Hindu, Christian or a Sikh President? - How would it help our economy, social structure and else?

Every kid born in Pakistan shouldn't be discriminated based on his religion

How are kids discriminated in Pakistan upon birth, please explain.

he/she can dream of becoming president and PM one day if they are good enough.

Dreams are not enough, in order to become the PM or President you need to be able to attract votes. You are not talking about equality in regards to minorities, which i refuse to accept because the idea of equality is bogus. We can create an egalitarian/pluralist state and that should be our aim not appeasing minorities. If we were to have a Christian PM today, would that solve all of the issues, the Christians have? - Exactly how Obama has solved all of the problems Blacks have in America and Manmohan has solved all of the problems Sikhs have in India? - What sort of bogus logic are you presenting here?

Let ahmedi call themselves what they want , Muslims or otherwise.

They are free to call themselves whatever they want and we are free to refuse to accept them as one of us. Both parties are free, the bigger party wins and runs the state according to its wishes, isn't that called democracy [Majority opinion wins] ? - Whats wrong with that?

Peace.

 

[HRK]

Can you provide an 'Audio visual evidence' of the August the 11th speech, so we can discuss it further? - Only then we can establish 'who is indulged in aberration' of Qaid's statements.

I have shared that speech (a very short audio clip) but to my surprise that 1:30 min audio clip is different from the printed version of that speech

http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-images-multimedia/268956-historical-videos-radio-archives-4.html#post4621319

 

[HRK]

Jinnah was a very contradictory person. While he was personally secular and gave secular speeches... at the same time he also catered to Islamist ideology.
Jinnah

On the other hand - being secular is fine...but then will it be acceptable to the majority of Pakistanis?

It's not Quaid its some people having confusion in their heart n mind, understanding of fundamental teaching & knowledge of Islam........a Hindu or christen could be a secular even having complete faith on his religious beliefs but only muslims are asked to disown their religion to be considered as secular.......

 

[Secur]

Had you done what you say you wouldnt be trying to equate two oxymorons...

IN MY BOOKS there is religious and not religious...SIMPLE you try any less or more than that you are an extremist...

Well, ONLY YOU alone know what you read and where from...

@Secur I dont go around preaching ISLAM = what people are doing nor do I like that in the same sentence....What people are doing has been happening since day 1 that is why we have msgrs coming to us...What Islam really is no one practices because EVERYONE seems to think they know what they are doing based on what their forefathers was doing...No one bothered to go back and recheck ....And then we have a bunch of MOLVI sahab who are molvi coz either they are the eldest in the town or have some strong backing and voters...VERY FEW are Molvi because they know a thing or 2...

So dont talk about WHAT PEOPLE ARE DOING and NEVER call it Islam UNLESS what they are doing REALLY IS Islam...

Did you see the ' so called ' Islamic countries thing ? My point was simple , they aren't following Islam hence the near perfect condition of the half of the Muslim world . How hard was it ?

Be a realist now . I know about transgressors . Unfortunately , the world doesn't run by your books . There are religious extremist/over zealous/fanatics too , here .

Of course , then why operate on the assumption that the other person is ignorant of the subject , he is talking about ? Why ?

Agreed 1-0-0 % , now please read my posts in this thread with a cool mind and see what I have been talking , all along instead of getting angry over sarcastic tone

They claim they are following Islam which is why , I call them following Islam despite knowing , what they are following , is anything but Islam . Because they are doing and following , their version of Islam . It is like saying , what a Mullah once said about weapons in mosque , he went like ' Weapons shouldn't be stored in mosque ' then he said ' wherever the weapons are found , do not call it a Mosque ' . Million and a one , remember ? I have to do so , otherwise this whole thing makes no sense . Does it ?

Too much punctuation bruh, repeat pl0x.

Is there a problem , officer ?

Yeah , it has been my posting style , lately .

 

[SarthakGanguly]

I have some counter points to that. But I would rather not write it here. Who likes getting banned anyway? No offense mate.

It's not Quaid its some people having confusion in their heart n mind, understanding of fundamental teaching & knowledge of Islam........a Hindu or christen could be a secular even having complete faith on his religious beliefs but only muslims are asked to disown their religion to be considered as secular.......

 

[doppelganger]

All minorities are recognized and protected under Pakistani constitution.

Yet you have blasphemy laws pertaining only to Islam, which make the situation for anyone, especially from a minority, very precarious as anyone can manipulate things and accuse someone for personal gain of blasphemy. And looking at things in Pakistan recently, there is only one side, and that is the majority. And increasingly the Ahmedis and Shias and Hazara do not belong to that majority. Forget about the Hindus and Christians.

 

[INDIC]

Jinnah was a very contradictory person. While he was personally secular and gave secular speeches... at the same time he also catered to Islamist ideology.
Jinnah

On the other hand - being secular is fine...but then will it be acceptable to the majority of Pakistanis?

Sarthak Bhai, only instance Jinnah spoke about secularism was the alleged 11 August 1947 speech. His whole political career was non-Secular and most of his speeches were about bashing Hindus.

But he didn't want a Mullah's version of the Muslim state based on certain sect. Objective resolution was introduced by his right hand Liaquat Ali Khan, its impossible to believe that he wanted a secular Pakistan.

 

[doppelganger]

I have stated before that we need no Indian to tell us how we should run our country. You people are so hypocritical that it stinks now, on one side you want to establish 'hindutva' and end whatever secularism is left in India and on the other side you want to have a secular Pakistan. Thats cute!

Hindutva is inclusive cultural nationalism. How does it in your view go against the plinth of Secularism on which India was built and stands and defends proudly? It is not an anachronism to say that to be Hindu in itself is to be secular. We have thousands of years of history as a land and civilization to prove it no? On the other hand, what does 1400 years of Islamic history boast of in comparison? Hence a nation built on the plinth of Islam can never be secular. It is oil and water sir.

 

[HariPrasad]

One word : Never !!!!

Then it would be better we stay in united india
Millions of muslims gave their lives to make Pakistan a secular state ???

So this is your Justification for Islamic Pakistan right?

You want it too remain an Islamic country to Justify Partition and sacrifice of your brothers right?

Why do not you look at the whole issue from an angle of "What is good for Pakistan Future?"