PAKISTAN POSITIONING JF-17 FOR GROUND ATTACK ROLE

[Humble Analyst]

I think a lot of stuff is Alternatiiv's personal views. Like limitations of block 1 and 2. But the Yemen thing just showed lack of thinking

It showed cruelty

 

[messiach]

Post withdrawn for certain reason.

even with Grifo+HOBS and HMDS ?

Withdrawn post.

Hi,

Thanks---. That makes it a very attractive 'internal price'---.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Post withdrawn for certain reason.



Withdrawn post.

Should i expect a response later when things are more certain ?

 

[GriffinsRule]

Getting off tangent here with the Yemen debacle, however, coming back to point on the ground attack role of jets using cannons. Just finished reading an article about the USAF gunnery and BFM competition in March of this year in Arizona called Haboob Havoc. Participating units were all 4 Luke AFB F-35 squadrons, (61st, 62nd, 63rd, 308th) and 3 F-16 squadrons (309th, 310th, 425th). Other squadrons from Davis-Monthan included A-10s from 345th squadron, 2 F-16 ANG squadrons (Alabamas 100th and SC's 194th) and two ANG F-15C squadrons (LAs 122nd and CAs 194th squadrons).
The competition seems to have yielded very interesting results as well. The A-A phase was restricted to two-shot radar guided missiles (no high off-bore AIM-9X) and gun kills with aircraft starting 10-15 miles apart. The second part of the competition was strafing ground targets.
The reason for me posting this is to show that the top air force by far in the world is still actively training its pilots not just in BFM and DACT but also doing it for gun kills. F-35 is by some reports to serve in the USAF until 2090s!! So it is safe to assume that the gun on aircraft is not going away in this century. Regardless of how advanced electronics, radars and missiles get, counter measures against these will develop alongside them trying to nullify their capabilities. Anyways, seems like there are enough people in USAF that see the benefit of this weapon system. Take from it what you may.
The results from the exercise:
Fastest gun kill: F-35A against F-16C (34secs!!)
Fastest radar missile kill: F-16C vs F-35A
Best Low level strafe: A-10C (98% of the bullets hitting the target!!)
Best High level strafe: Also an A-10C. (An F-15C made is in the top 3 as well)
Best air-air kill ratio: F-15C (I can only imagine if PAF had the Eagles tag teaming with the Vipers, how IAF would have even survived this long)

The article is in the Aug issue of Combat Aircraft.

 

[Khafee]

Getting off tangent here with the Yemen debacle, however, coming back to point on the ground attack role of jets using cannons. Just finished reading an article about the USAF gunnery and BFM competition in March of this year in Arizona called Haboob Havoc. Participating units were all 4 Luke AFB F-35 squadrons, (61st, 62nd, 63rd, 308th) and 3 F-16 squadrons (309th, 310th, 425th). Other squadrons from Davis-Monthan included A-10s from 345th squadron, 2 F-16 ANG squadrons (Alabamas 100th and SC's 194th) and two ANG F-15C squadrons (LAs 122nd and CAs 194th squadrons).
The competition seems to have yielded very interesting results as well. The A-A phase was restricted to two-shot radar guided missiles (no high off-bore AIM-9X) and gun kills with aircraft starting 10-15 miles apart. The second part of the competition was strafing ground targets.
The reason for me posting this is to show that the top air force by far in the world is still actively training its pilots not just in BFM and DACT but also doing it for gun kills. F-35 is by some reports to serve in the USAF until 2090s!! So it is safe to assume that the gun on aircraft is not going away in this century. Regardless of how advanced electronics, radars and missiles get, counter measures against these will develop alongside them trying to nullify their capabilities. Anyways, seems like there are enough people in USAF that see the benefit of this weapon system. Take from it what you may.
The results from the exercise:
Fastest gun kill: F-35A against F-16C (34secs!!)
Fastest radar missile kill: F-16C vs F-35A
Best Low level strafe: A-10C (98% of the bullets hitting the target!!)
Best High level strafe: Also an A-10C. (An F-15C made is in the top 3 as well)
Best air-air kill ratio: F-15C (I can only imagine if PAF had the Eagles tag teaming with the Vipers, how IAF would have even survived this long)

The article is in the Aug issue of Combat Aircraft.

View attachment 568189

My friend, what happens in an exercise, then in Advanced Tactical Leadership Course, and then ultimately how SOP's & Strategies are defined, are 3 different things.

 

[ali_raza]

My friend, what happens in an exercise, then in Advanced Tactical Leadership Course, and then ultimately how SOP's & Strategies are defined, are 3 different things.

but still eagles can make hell of a team.with vipers.
japs r giving the whole lot for a dime on dollar they have production lines too.
imagine the possibilities.
if we can put in 3 squadrons airworthy and rest as spares.
plus 8 new f15 to get it all upgraded in the deal.
it will just change the air war over night with indians have no where to run

 

[Khafee]

but still eagles can make hell of a team.with vipers.
japs r giving the whole lot for a dime on dollar they have production lines too.
imagine the possibilities.
if we can put in 3 squadrons airworthy and rest as spares.
plus 8 new f15 to get it all upgraded in the deal.
it will just change the air war over night with indians have no where to run

and this is why it will never happen.

 

[CHI RULES]

Not so sure the range is lower. The alleged range of the KLJ7A is 170KM vs a 5m2 target. The Grifo E is apparently 158 approx against 3m2. Also the Grifo can track 24 vs 15 for the KLJ. power cooling and other factors would make the decision.

Sir though you are right that no clear evidence is there regarding ranges however as per
https://medium.com/.../nriets-klj-7a-multi-mode-aesa-radar-for-jf-17-block-iii-8931ed...
The KLJ7A radar range against 3m2 target is 170 KM. The exact words for kind consideration pasted below.
"East Pendulum reported citing NRIET deputy director Wang Hongzhe that the KLJ-7A has a range of 170 km against aerial target with 3m² RCS (radar cross-section) or 200 km against aerial target with 5m² RCS. It can track 15 targets and engage four simultaneously."

On other hand the tracking of 24 targets is not so important in case of Indo Pak scenario as the main role of JF17 shall remain for A2A engagements 1:1.

It is evident that generally the Chinese tech due to factor of lower price/economy shall be used mainly in case of next Block-3 version . However PAF may go for few squadrons equipped with Western Radar though relatively costly and A2A missiles to over come near future threats, yet the radar range should be significantly superior to Chinese one.

There are news that Chinese radar options perhaps have been already tested on JF17 and they are specifically made to fit in with JF17. Your kind comments requested.

 

[aliyusuf]

@CHI RULES
A radar that detects a 3m² target at 170 km will detect a 5m² target at 193 km. Not 200 km.
Also East Pendulum states the figure of 170 km for 5m² targets for the KLJ-7A radar. Not 3m² target.
-->East Pendulum

@Keysersoze
Do you have a source that states that the 158 km range is against 3m² targets for the Grifo-E?

Because I found these figures

-->Grifo-E Brochure

Edit: Corrected a mistake.

 

[Basel]

Since Alan Warne confirmed that Grifo E is still on table, i believe that JF17B will use Grifo E and these 26 A/Cs will be used for naval role.
@Oscar @messiach

Is Grifo-E other name of Vixen-1000E??

 

[HRK]

Is Grifo-E other name of Vixen-1000E??

nope different radar than Vixen-1000E

 

[Basel]

nope different radar than Vixen-1000E

Is it AESA and more capable then Vixen-1000E? If no then we should not waste our money on it.

 

[Khafee]

Is it AESA and more capable then Vixen-1000E? If no then we should not waste our money on it.

Less capable than the Vixen

 

[Basel]

Less capable than the Vixen

Then why should PAF chose it?? Raven should be base standard for PAF AESA from west.

 

[HRK]

Is it AESA and more capable then Vixen-1000E? If no then we should not waste our money on it.

its AESA but not as capable as Vixen-1000E

For the part of your post I could only make a guess that Vixen radar was not on offer with source code while Grifo might be still available with source code which will be helpful in integration of existing and future weapon package of non western origin.