PAKISTAN POSITIONING JF-17 FOR GROUND ATTACK ROLE

[khail007]

Hi,

Those circumstances were different---. That package of war was out of league of Pakistan military on its own---.

Why did US military got involved---do you have any idea---?

Sir G, are you sure, it could not happen again?
At that time Pakistan was more safe than today. Pakistani forces were far away in the southern part of KSA and were pitched against Yemeni forces. What I believe USA started the gulf theatre to suck Arabs wealth and to soften Iraq for the joint vested interests of themselves as well as Israelis.

Your suggested plan is unaffordable for Pakistan, as we are on more dangerous grounds, East and West already hostile and border with Iran is also not so safe and could go further hostile, if we open an account in ME referring present circumstances.
Arabs nations are not in a position to save themselves, if something goes wrong who will be at our back? Any idea?
IMO we should play safe and keep away from any war, which is not ours. Pakistan already paid a very very heavy price in the past and still we are paying and on top of that bullied by USA.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir G, are you sure, it could not happen again?
At that time Pakistan was more safe than today. Pakistani forces were far away in the southern part of KSA and were pitched against Yemeni forces. What I believe USA started the gulf theatre to suck Arabs wealth and to soften Iraq for the joint vested interests of themselves as well as Israelis.

Your suggested plan is unaffordable for Pakistan, as we are on more dangerous grounds, East and West already hostile and border with Iran is also not so safe and could go further hostile, if we open an account in ME referring present circumstances.
Arabs nations are not in a position to save themselves, if something goes wrong who will be at our back? Any idea?
IMO we should play safe and keep away from any war, which is not ours. Pakistan already paid a very very heavy price in the past and still we are paying and on top of that bullied by USA.

Hi,

Actually---the US did not start the gulf theater. Saddam started the incursion with american permission---.

If the cold war was on---no one would have been bothered by what happened---.

But as it did---the cold war ending had certain ramification in the US military heirarchy----.

A certain battle group---that thought itself to be the sledge hammer of gods & a super hero in their minds---became a nobody the day the cold war ended---yes---they became a nobody---.

And this battle group was the US military's Armor Command ( the tank divisions---) which became useless after the end of cold war---.

No enemy---no war to fight---what could the tanks do---they and their generals became useless---no place in the military---yesterday they were the cock of the walk---today they were nobody---.

The menial down trodden and a nobody---that was the US infantry---switched positions and became the king in the US military---.

A huge number of tanks were to be dismantled and generals ready to be retired---and then Saddam hit Kuwait---.

The US armor was given a new life up from heavens or may it be from hell---whatever you may call---but the timing could not have been more perfect---.

The faces of the armor generals lit up---heads started getting together and a plan emerged to restore the image of US military armored corps---.

So---to save its armored corps from demise---the US planned it 1st gulf war---.

There was 'no sucking' of arab wealth or control of oil wells---that may have come on later as a bonus---war booty---.

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

It still might be---. The threat has not gone away but has taken a different direction--GCC wants an umbrella of security---this period of uncertainty is not helping them and their neighbors---.

This issue needs to be understood by Pakistan as well---.
Being non aligned and not committed is not going to work at all---. You become a nobody when you stand alone---.

The GCC knows that they have an issue---they know that there is a problem---but the problem is possibly beyond their abilities & capabilities even though they have the resource---.

Pak can provide the solution---pak has the manpower to do the job---a job than will be done right---& for that---pak needs to have control over the operation---100 %.

Be it 50000 troops or 150000 troops---. A battle group formed with the troops of one nation and led by a commander of that nation---that is the first step---.

Is IK ready for that---. Does he understand what is at stake in the gulf and in the sub-continent---. Where fingers sitting on hair triggers can begin the start of a catastrophe which may have no ending---.

MK, it is quite surprising that we aren't taking better opportunity of the geostrategic situation. I hope IK and the Pak army heed. I know top people in the PAF and GHQ do follow your posts, although mostly they are too full of ego to listen. I hope they listen.

The other thing we can do is to raise a few conscript divisions to boost our defenses - and build a hybrid volunteer and conscript army, which is something Israel has been doing.

The opportunity to sell JFT goes up immensely if they are sold as well-piloted squadrons, rather than as hardware alone.

 

[MastanKhan]

MK, it is quite surprising that we aren't taking better opportunity of the geostrategic situation. I hope IK and the Pak army heed. I know top people in the PAF and GHQ do follow your posts, although mostly they are too full of ego to listen. I hope they listen.

The other thing we can do is to raise a few conscript divisions to boost our defenses - and build a hybrid volunteer and conscript army, which is something Israel has been doing.

The opportunity to sell JFT goes up immensely if they are sold as well-piloted squadrons, rather than as hardware alone.

Hi,

It is upto pakistan to understand that the need for an independent pakistani battle groups in the GCC is not going to fade away---.

It was the need of the day yesterday---it will be the need of the hour for today---and its utility would not come down tomorrow---.

So---looking at the GCC---you cannot go cheap on them---you need to go for the max---.

You need to have a naval battle group---you need to have Type 054---052---F22p type frigates to project power---and smaller missile boats to cover shallow areas and to maintain and manage your ocean environment---.

You also need submarines for the GCC---you will ask for what---GCC is desert---but it has ocean / water all around it---.

It needs its separate air force---JF17 BLK3 standards---SU34 or JH7A's---.

It needs tanks and heavy guns---basically a totally independent battle group.

The majority of the army has to be from one region---ie---pakistan---so that the commander has total control over his troops---.

What the goal of this battle group is to keep trouble away from the land of GCC and cover and contain it right away if something un-towards starts up---.

You would ask why---if there is no trouble popping up in GCC---it will keep trouble away from pakistan---.

As some countries have NATO---we need to have a PGATO---Pakistan Gulf Alliance Treaty Organization---.

For me---the minimum troop count should be 100K distributed to 3 regions---each independent quick deployment force---with a very very special emphasis on a naval force---. You control the supply line---you control the battle---.

The troops should be given the option for requesting permanent residence for their immediate spouses and children---. A condition of at least one child in that military force a must for the future---.

With this one step---we have gained between 1 million to 2 million new jobs in pakistan and GCC---.

Our weapons sales exports to GCC would go up sharply and off course the GCC would be paying for all the equipment and salaries etc etc etc---.

But all this depends on pakistan seeing the light and presenting it to GCC---.

 

[Blacklight]

Hi,

It is upto pakistan to understand that the need for an independent pakistani battle groups in the GCC is not going to fade away---.

It was the need of the day yesterday---it will be the need of the hour for today---and its utility would not come down tomorrow---.

So---looking at the GCC---you cannot go cheap on them---you need to go for the max---.

You need to have a naval battle group---you need to have Type 054---052---F22p type frigates to project power---and smaller missile boats to cover shallow areas and to maintain and manage your ocean environment---.

You also need submarines for the GCC---you will ask for what---GCC is desert---but it has ocean / water all around it---.

It needs its separate air force---JF17 BLK3 standards---SU34 or JH7A's---.

It needs tanks and heavy guns---basically a totally independent battle group.

The majority of the army has to be from one region---ie---pakistan---so that the commander has total control over his troops---.

What the goal of this battle group is to keep trouble away from the land of GCC and cover and contain it right away if something un-towards starts up---.

You would ask why---if there is no trouble popping up in GCC---it will keep trouble away from pakistan---.

As some countries have NATO---we need to have a PGATO---Pakistan Gulf Alliance Treaty Organization---.

For me---the minimum troop count should be 100K distributed to 3 regions---each independent quick deployment force---with a very very special emphasis on a naval force---. You control the supply line---you control the battle---.

The troops should be given the option for requesting permanent residence for their immediate spouses and children---. A condition of at least one child in that military force a must for the future---.

With this one step---we have gained between 1 million to 2 million new jobs in pakistan and GCC---.

Our weapons sales exports to GCC would go up sharply and off course the GCC would be paying for all the equipment and salaries etc etc etc---.

But all this depends on pakistan seeing the light and presenting it to GCC---.

Sir, you seem to have spent quite some time studying this scenario, Kudos for that.

Our limitations seem to be two things, our myopic vision, and our loyalties, to everyone, but Pakistan.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, you seem to have spent quite some time studying this scenario, Kudos for that.

Our limitations seem to be two things, our myopic vision, and our loyalties, to everyone, but Pakistan.

Hi,

Technically---the scenario has been repeated many many times over the period of history---. Weaker nations asking their stronger allies for help when they come under duress.

Stronger nations come to the help of their less stronger friends or benefactors---assist them in their time of duress---build better relations & stronger bonds---.

Now---one has to understand---these bonds are not only being built between the govts only per say---.

The focus of these bonds is the families---the women and children of those lesser militarily able nations---. I am building these bonds with the young children of GCC---girls---boys---women---young children---babies---my sisters---my mothers and aunts and grand mothers and older men---these are my target audience---these are the people who I am building the ever lasting bonds with---these are the people that my military will live in their hearts and souls forever and generation to come---.

This was the audience that I wanted to capture but for the failure of Gen Raheel Shareef to capture the moment---.

When a 12 years old girl go sees her father The Amir or a sheikh and say---papa---I feel very safe because Allah has sent us the help of pakistan military to protect us---what do you think would go thru her fathers mind---.

Or the wife says to her husband at night in their bed---"I feel our children are safer because Allah has sent us help in the form of pakistan military to protect us "---what do you think the effect is going to be on the Sheikh for the next morning and days to come---.

Humanity---and building relation is a feel touch and share event---you be there in their hour of need---they will stand with you in your hour of need---.

Lasting friendships and alliances are formed by spilling your blood for the safety and protection of those you may call your friends and allies---.

Pakistani military forgot to understand---they were not capable to understand that---they were too self centered and arrogant to understand that---. Allah gave them the opportunity of a 1000 years---and they threw it down the garbage drain---.

This is the true intellect of the pakistani generals that many of you are so proud of---this is the level of their understanding---.

The enemy's first task is to always isolate you from your friends---.

The Lionesses---the Leopard's---target a prey---they chase it and separate it from the herd---once separated---it becomes easy prey---.

And that is happening to pakistan---not a good pace to be in---. @Khafee

 

[Vortex]

Hi,

Technically---the scenario has been repeated many many times over the period of history---. Weaker nations asking their stronger allies for help when they come under duress.

Stronger nations come to the help of their less stronger friends or benefactors---assist them in their time of duress---build better relations & stronger bonds---.

Now---one has to understand---these bonds are not only being built between the govts only per say---.

The focus of these bonds is the families---the women and children of those lesser militarily able nations---. I am building these bonds with the young children of GCC---girls---boys---women---young children---babies---my sisters---my mothers and aunts and grand mothers and older men---these are my target audience---these are the people who I am building the ever lasting bonds with---these are the people that my military will live in their hearts and souls forever and generation to come---.

This was the audience that I wanted to capture but for the failure of Gen Raheel Shareef to capture the moment---.

When a 12 years old girl go sees her father The Amir or a sheikh and say---papa---I feel very safe because Allah has sent us the help of pakistan military to protect us---what do you think would go thru her fathers mind---.

Or the wife says to her husband at night in their bed---"I feel our children are safer because Allah has sent us help in the form of pakistan military to protect us "---what do you think the effect is going to be on the Sheikh for the next morning and days to come---.

Humanity---and building relation is a feel touch and share event---you be there in their hour of need---they will stand with you in your hour of need---.

Lasting friendships and alliances are formed by spilling your blood for the safety and protection of those you may call your friends and allies---.

Pakistani military forgot to understand---they were not capable to understand that---they were too self centered and arrogant to understand that---. Allah gave them the opportunity of a 1000 years---and they threw it down the garbage drain---.

This is the true intellect of the pakistani generals that many of you are so proud of---this is the level of their understanding---.

The enemy's first task is to always isolate you from your friends---.

The Lionesses---the Leopard's---target a prey---they chase it and separate it from the herd---once separated---it becomes easy prey---.

And that is happening to pakistan---not a good pace to be in---. @Khafee

I realise that you are correct but still a part of me said... no.

It could have happened like you, several others members wanted if only == IF ONLY == had these countries asked us first instead of adding us in their coalition at their sole will. It only shown how they saw, they see and the will see us. I'm still wondering if those countries have one, yes only one, father which is ready to say to her daughter that Allah send us Pakistanis to defend us.

I could be wrong as my knowledge and understanding are limited.

 

[MastanKhan]

I realise that you are correct but still a part of me said... no.

It could have happened like you, several others members wanted if only == IF ONLY == had these countries asked us first instead of adding us in their coalition at their sole will. It only shown how they saw, they see and the will see us. I'm still wondering if those countries have one, yes only one, father which is ready to say to her daughter that Allah send us Pakistanis to defend us.

I could be wrong as my knowledge and understanding are limited.

Hi,

For the first---it don't make no difference---. Many a times I have assumed my friends to stand with me and many a times my friends assumed that I will stand with them---

for the second---W'Allah---that is a vicious statement---. I would never take a stand on that---.

These people have kept us afloat for decades---some hidden our missile tests---some funded our other asset programs---some paid our bill---.

Pakistanis so ungrateful and thankless---yes---in a way only a pakistani could be---may Allah forgive me---.

 

[Vortex]

Hi,

For the first---it don't make no difference---. Many a times I have assumed my friends to stand with me and many a times my friends assumed that I will stand with them---

for the second---W'Allah---that is a vicious statement---. I would never take a stand on that---.

These people have kept us afloat for decades---some hidden our missile tests---some funded our other asset programs---some paid our bill---.

Pakistanis so ungrateful and thankless---yes---in a way only a pakistani could be---may Allah forgive me---.

And protecting our corrupts leaders ?

 

[MastanKhan]

And protecting our corrupts leaders ?

Hi,

My priority is pakistan---. If you think that something about the politicians or the GCC father not thanking pakistan you handle that concern.

 

[Thorough Pro]

It was all pre-planned. I believe US has war plans for the next two decades already thought out and well charted.

Hi,

Actually---the US did not start the gulf theater. Saddam started the incursion with american permission---.

If the cold war was on---no one would have been bothered by what happened---.

But as it did---the cold war ending had certain ramification in the US military heirarchy----.

A certain battle group---that thought itself to be the sledge hammer of gods & a super hero in their minds---became a nobody the day the cold war ended---yes---they became a nobody---.

And this battle group was the US military's Armor Command ( the tank divisions---) which became useless after the end of cold war---.

No enemy---no war to fight---what could the tanks do---they and their generals became useless---no place in the military---yesterday they were the cock of the walk---today they were nobody---.

The menial down trodden and a nobody---that was the US infantry---switched positions and became the king in the US military---.

A huge number of tanks were to be dismantled and generals ready to be retired---and then Saddam hit Kuwait---.

The US armor was given a new life up from heavens or may it be from hell---whatever you may call---but the timing could not have been more perfect---.

The faces of the armor generals lit up---heads started getting together and a plan emerged to restore the image of US military armored corps---.

So---to save its armored corps from demise---the US planned it 1st gulf war---.

There was 'no sucking' of arab wealth or control of oil wells---that may have come on later as a bonus---war booty---.

 

[Vortex]

Hi,

My priority is pakistan---. If you think that something about the politicians or the GCC father not thanking pakistan you handle that concern.

I never said that your priority is not Pakistan, and I really think there are many many members as patriotic as you or me.

But the problem is if our corrupts leaders weren’t protected by those Arabic’s countries, maybe or I’m sure that Pakistan would have been in better situation on industrialisation and economic developments. It would have those GCC who would have today more need of Pakistan than the opposite.

Those GCC countries, despite having more than enough $$$ for development chose to invest in western countries instead of investing in their own countries or even Pakistan.

Those countries if they had invested in Yemen for the development of all Yemenites, then they wouldn’t have been in the mess today. And then no need of our protection would have been required.

I hope the father you were talking about earlier would say that to her daughter : they are responsible ( the father the king of Muslims) of their mess. Not Pakistan.

 

[MastanKhan]

It was all pre-planned. I believe US has war plans for the next two decades already thought out and well charted.

Hi,

It just happened like that---. No one had planned for the Berlin wall to come down---. The Generals of the armor division were helpless---they were the ultimate Princes of death & destruction---they never anticipated their sudden demise at the fall of Berlin wall in the coming days---.

And after all that---they find out that the despicable US army infantry has suddenly become the king---inter service rivalry---you have no clue how it was between the infantry & Armor---.

Saddam---actually him being head strong---was a god given gift---.

Just like Mullah Umar thought that the americans were calling OBL a TOURIST---Mullah Umar being illiterate did not know the difference between a tourist and a terrorist---but being an afghan he did know about tourists---because thousands of tourists visited afg---.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Berlin wall didn't came down in one day, it was in the works for many years in another part of the world. Normally the work is hidden from most (by lack of interest or ignorance) but outcome is obvious and then they it came out of nowhere.

Hi,

It just happened like that---. No one had planned for the Berlin wall to come down---. The Generals of the armor division were helpless---they were the ultimate Princes of death & destruction---they never anticipated their sudden demise at the fall of Berlin wall in the coming days---.

And after all that---they find out that the despicable US army infantry has suddenly become the king---inter service rivalry---you have no clue how it was between the infantry & Armor---.

Saddam---actually him being head strong---was a god given gift---.

Just like Mullah Umar thought that the americans were calling OBL a TOURIST---Mullah Umar being illiterate did not know the difference between a tourist and a terrorist---but being an afghan he did know about tourists---because thousands of tourists visited afg---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Berlin wall didn't came down in one day, it was in the works for many years in another part of the world. Normally the work is hidden from most (by lack of interest or ignorance) but outcome is obvious and then they it came out of nowhere.

Hi,

The directive of my posts is the change in the status quo or the 'power positioning ' between the US Armor Divisions and the US Infantry Divisions---the effects of switching of the roles---from being the Kings of the plains to future rust buckets---the inter service rivalry at its worst---.

And then Saddam attacks Iraq---.