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Military operations won't work. The military needs to gain support of the locals....and all they want is peace and development....which sadly the army does not seem to realize.

And I personally think the FC is pathetic....they have not been trained, they have no moral, and they have no technology. The western media is labeling the FC as part of the Pakistani Army. So the FC is basically putting a bad name for the Pakistani Army.
 
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UnKnOwN said:
And I personally think the FC is pathetic....they have not been trained, they have no moral, and they have no technology. The western media is labeling the FC as part of the Pakistani Army. So the FC is basically putting a bad name for the Pakistani Army.
Sorry i disagree! .

you cannot just say FC is pathetic without analyzing the facts. they done best what they have trained for, they are not trained for this kind of situation so they are not doing the best but they are putting all there efforts to give us the best. & i dont seems to be it as a bad name on Pakistan Army they are more successful the US in Iraq or Afg, so if they are bad then US army is more pathetic then they are.

& your no moral thing, if they have no moral then they wont be fighting there till now, you can challenge there training, you can challenge there equipment, you can challenge there Technology, BUT you cannot challenge there MORAL.

Military operations won't work. The military needs to gain support of the locals....and all they want is peace and development....which sadly the army does not seem to realize.
Well we are the best victims of so called Diplomatic Solution.
we started talk on Kashmir it is still pending from 60 years.
We tries to convince the LM students by peace but you all know what happened.
we tried to convince Bhughi with peace talk but ....
We tried to convince Bait-uhhah-Mehsud on table but.......
We tried to convince the terrorists in NW with Peace talk but......


So conclusion is peace talks dont work for us.
bcoz
"Latoon kay bhoot, Batoon say nahi mantay"

Regards
Wilco
 
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Military operations won't work. The military needs to gain support of the locals....and all they want is peace and development....which sadly the army does not seem to realize.

And how can you have peace and development when the militants are beheading people left and right under their medieval code, blowing up businesses, shutting down schools? Development is necessary, but it cannot happen in a security vacuum. The two need to be undertaken simultaneously.

You forget that the only thing the army did, in the aftermath of the LM, was to set up more check posts and deploy more soldiers. They did not initiate an "operation" in the traditional sense, and till this recent conflagration, their policy was to only retaliate when attacked. Even before they deployed, the army and FC was coming under attack from IEDs, and then after the LM, suicide bombings. So how can development take place in an environment like this?
 
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Well we are the best victims of so called Diplomatic Solution.
we started talk on Kashmir it is still pending from 60 years.
We tries to convince the LM students by peace but you all know what happened.
we tried to convince Bhughi with peace talk but ....
We tried to convince Bait-uhhah-Mehsud on table but.......
We tried to convince the terrorists in NW with Peace talk but......


So conclusion is peace talks dont work for us.
bcoz
"Latoon kay bhoot, Batoon say nahi mantay"

Regards
Wilco

Agreed. We have had the worst experience of handling issues by diplomacy as Wilco mentioned above. SO when diplomacy fails, then military comes in and that is what it is meant for. If diplomacy was so working out US wouldnt decide to go for war.
As for pakistan we have had it with this BS diplomacy, but like i mentioned before in my post, we need now to go after the source i.e in afghainstan. The mehsud tribe, the BLA all supported by foreing elements in afghanistan, they are the main threat to our peace in the region and we need to take them out before they hurt pakistan's interest. The GOP has already decided to highlight this issue with the GOI but we all know the out come of it. India would completely reject these claims no matter how hard the evidence is or no matter what the US tries to tell them regarding their pakistan centric polices. So its time we put our military to the test.:guns: The sooner we do the better or our we waiting for another 71 to happen.
 
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And how can you have peace and development when the militants are beheading people left and right under their medieval code, blowing up businesses, shutting down schools? Development is necessary, but it cannot happen in a security vacuum. The two need to be undertaken simultaneously.

They did not initiate an "operation" in the traditional sense, and till this recent conflagration, their policy was to only retaliate when attacked. Even before they deployed, the army and FC was coming under attack from IEDs, and then after the LM, suicide bombings. So how can development take place in an environment like this?

I don't think you realize what happens when a Pakistani operation is conducted. The military bombs anything that is suspected. So exactly how do except to gain the support of the local people by bombing the only place they have been? Would it be fitting to kill the only person that supports the family?

I personally don't want the Taliban there but do you realize how to win against guerilla warfare? I know the militants kill people, thats how they rule; through fear. But try looking at the military. As far as I know they have not done anything to improve the lives of the locals. Is the pak military ruling through fear? No. Is the pak military ruling by gaining the support of the locals? No. How do you conduct a operation when you don't know who the enemy is?
 
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Well we are the best victims of so called Diplomatic Solution.
we started talk on Kashmir it is still pending from 60 years.
We tries to convince the LM students by peace but you all know what happened.
we tried to convince Bhughi with peace talk but ....
We tried to convince Bait-uhhah-Mehsud on table but.......
We tried to convince the terrorists in NW with Peace talk but......


So conclusion is peace talks dont work for us.
bcoz
"Latoon kay bhoot, Batoon say nahi mantay"

Regards
Wilco

You are comparing Kashmir to this? Kashmir is an issues between India and Pakistan. NOT between a group and country.

Do you know what the LM students were taught? No, and neither do I. But you have been taught something for years, its gonna be stuck in your heart. LM is more of a locally bred issue, influenced by some idiots. And I seem to remember the administration bribing some of the students to come out....what was it....oh yea 1,000 students. They took out 1,000 students through "negotiation"..."Diplomacy". So would it be better to kill 1000 students or 100?

And it would be best if you try not to insult the abilities of Pakistan. We can use diplomacy, with the right people.
 
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Do you know what the LM students were taught? No, and neither do I. But you have been taught something for years, its gonna be stuck in your heart. LM is more of a locally bred issue, influenced by some idiots. And I seem to remember the administration bribing some of the students to come out....what was it....oh yea 1,000 students. They took out 1,000 students through "negotiation"..."Diplomacy". So would it be better to kill 1000 students or 100?
nothing but a flamebait.

And it would be best if you try not to insult the abilities of Pakistan. We can use diplomacy, with the right people.
& who do you think are the right people, these terrorists, who dont even know what Islam is & are calling themselves the soldiers of Islam .

& where did i insult the abilities of Pakistan, neither do i nor any of the other members happen to spot them that you have done, you care to tell me where did i insult Pakistan.

& a advice for you: think before you are writing.


Regards
Wilco
 
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I don't think you realize what happens when a Pakistani operation is conducted. The military bombs anything that is suspected. So exactly how do except to gain the support of the local people by bombing the only place they have been? Would it be fitting to kill the only person that supports the family?

Thats my point. The military never initiated an offensive operation until this last one. All the previous engagements occurred only as a retaliation to attacks on convoys and check posts. This was also the first time jets were used for bombing militants - because the military understood the potential of collateral damage from the use of such weapons.

So why did the local populace allow the militants to gain power to the point that attacks on check posts and suicide bombings were happening everyday? The army wasn't bombing them at that point - there were no reports of collateral damage coming out of the area. The militants just kept getting bolder. All the NGO's doing development work were chased out of the area. Some schools run by missionaries were forced to shut down. Other schools were threatened for various reasons, businesses being blown up - all this while the army was doing nothing but defending itself.

Now how do you stop this trend of increasing lawlessness and violence when the original policy of "defensive offense" didn't work?

I personally don't want the Taliban there but do you realize how to win against guerilla warfare? I know the militants kill people, thats how they rule; through fear. But try looking at the military. As far as I know they have not done anything to improve the lives of the locals. Is the pak military ruling through fear? No. Is the pak military ruling by gaining the support of the locals? No. How do you conduct a operation when you don't know who the enemy is?

Again, you can only win hearts and minds through development and investment, by that wont happen till the violence stops, so there is a necessity of an offensive operation to change the dynamics to the point where the militants are subdued to some extent, before you can even think of carrying out development work.
 
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How do you reconcile this:
Do you know what the LM students were taught? No, and neither do I. But you have been taught something for years, its gonna be stuck in your heart.

with this:

And it would be best if you try not to insult the abilities of Pakistan. We can use diplomacy, with the right people.

The problem with religious teaching gone astray is that you cannot reason with such people beyond a certain point. Do you really think that a person who has been indoctrinated to the extent that he is willing to strap on explosives and blow himself and innocent men, women and children up really has any hope of being convinced? Its easy to say "use diplomacy", and it was used, with appeals from even the one true saint in Pakistan (Sattar Edhi) falling on deaf ears. There was nothing more that could be done.
 
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Interesting article regarding FCs. Bias yes..

U.S. military aid to Pakistan misses its Al Qaeda target
Riaz Khan / Associated Press
CAPTIVES: Frontier Corps troops are held in the Swat district of northwestern Pakistan last week. The members of the paramilitary force were captured by pro-Taliban militants.
The Frontier Corps battling the militants is outgunned and poorly trained, officials say. Funding instead goes to equipment more suited for conventional warfare with India.
By Greg Miller, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
November 5, 2007
WASHINGTON — Despite billions of dollars in U.S. military payments to Pakistan over the last six years, the paramilitary force leading the pursuit of Al Qaeda militants remains underfunded, poorly trained and overwhelmingly outgunned, U.S. military and intelligence officials said.

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf cited the rising militant threat in declaring a state of emergency on Saturday and suspending the constitution.

Related Stories
- U.S. alliance with Musharraf falls under new doubt
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- U.S. unlikely to halt Pakistan aid
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But rather than use the more than $7 billion in U.S. military aid to bolster its counter-terrorism capabilities, Pakistan has spent the bulk of it on heavy arms, aircraft and equipment that U.S. officials say are far more suited for conventional warfare with India, its regional rival.

That has left fighters with the paramilitary force, known as the Frontier Corps, equipped often with little more than "sandals and bolt-action rifles," said a senior Western military official in Islamabad, even as they face Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters equipped with assault rifles and grenade launchers.

The arms imbalance has contributed to Al Qaeda's ability to regroup in the border region, and reflects the competing priorities that were evident even before this weekend between two countries that are self-described allies in the "war on terrorism" but have sharply divergent national security interests.

The situation also has emerged as a significant obstacle as the United States and Pakistan seek new approaches after a series of failed strategies in the frontier region, where Osama bin Laden and other top Al Qaeda leaders are believed to be hiding.

U.S. officials have urged Pakistan to move more aggressively against militants and bolster the capabilities of the Frontier Corps, an indigenously recruited force of about 80,000 troops, half of them based in the tribal areas, that was formed under British rule and is traditionally used to guard the border and curb smuggling.

Even front-line units with upgraded weapons are woefully unschooled in counterinsurgency tactics, other officials said. Late last month, Islamic militants captured dozens of fighters and paraded them before Western journalists, the latest in a series of embarrassing encounters.

Pakistan has recently indicated that it will enlarge the corps and expand its role in pursuing Al Qaeda. But because the Frontier Corps has been all but shut off from U.S. military aid and payments to Pakistan, U.S. officials said the new strategy amounts in some ways to starting from scratch more than six years after the Sept. 11 attacks.

"The view in Washington is that the Frontier Corps is the best way forward because they are locally recruited, speak the language, and understand the culture, terrain and local politics," said a senior Pentagon official, discussing internal deliberations on Pakistan policy on condition of anonymity.

But transforming the corps into a force that can contend with militants in the tribal area "will take years to bring to fruition," he said.

Partly because of that timetable, the goal of dismantling Al Qaeda and its hub of operations in the border region has given way to expectations among U.S. intelligence and military officials that the United States and Pakistan face a years-long struggle simply to contain the terrorist network and keep it from expanding.

"I think it's worse than starting from scratch," said Bruce Riedel, a former South Asia expert at the CIA and the White House now with the Brookings Institution's Saban Center for Middle East Policy.

"The most optimistic of scenarios we're looking at is a very long-term effort to try to stabilize the badlands of northwestern Pakistan," Riedel said. "The alternative is . . . a more or less permanent Taliban state within a state in northwest Pakistan."

Plans to build up the Frontier Corps are not universally supported by U.S. military officials. Loyalties within the corps are thought by many observers to be divided. Members are recruited mainly from Pashtun tribes with long-standing mistrust of outsiders. Most reject militant ideology, and have suffered hundreds of casualties in the fighting. But many also are devoutly religious and feel some degree of sympathy for the Islamists' cause.

"There is a push-back among some that the Frontier Corps is not a reliable ally of the United States," said Seth Jones, a military expert at Rand Corp. "The concern is that you give them additional training and equipment, and they could end up helping militants rather than taking action against them."

Perhaps as a hedge against those concerns, the U.S. Special Operations Command has recently begun exploring efforts to pay off tribal militias in the region that are not affiliated with the Pakistani government, and arm them to root out Al Qaeda and Taliban militants, a source familiar with the discussions said.

"You can't buy them, but you can rent them," said the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the discussions. "There is a very serious effort to look at this."

The CIA also operates in the area, and has doubled the number of case officers based in Pakistan in recent years, former agency officials say.

Despite the concerns, U.S. officials said there is widespread agreement that boosting support to the Frontier Corps is worth the risk, a position that reflects deep frustration with a string of failed strategies in the border region.

An early failure was a plan to keep Al Qaeda operatives from crossing into Pakistan when U.S. troops invaded Afghanistan in late 2001. That was followed by ineffective forays by thousands of Pakistani regular army troops and aborted peace agreements with tribal leaders who did not fulfill pledges to clamp down on the militants.

By last summer, U.S. intelligence agencies concluded that the peace deals had given Al Qaeda room to regroup and rebuild its ability to train and plan attacks on Western targets.

Related Stories
- U.S. alliance with Musharraf falls under new doubt
- Pakistani police arrest hundreds
- U.S. unlikely to halt Pakistan aid
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Under new pressure from the United States, Musharraf resumed military incursions earlier this year, with Frontier Corps fighters teaming up with Pakistani regular army units. The effort produced a series of bloody and clumsy confrontations that may have strengthened the militants' position in the tribal areas.

Especially demoralizing was the Aug. 30 capture of about 250 troops, most of them members of the Frontier Corps, who surrendered without a fight. Over the next two months, a few dozen were released but at least three were beheaded. Over the weekend, 211 were freed in exchange for 25 militants held by the army.

Taking on Al Qaeda and Taliban militants represents a significant departure for the Frontier Corps, whose members are typically outfitted with castoffs from the regular army. Led by army officers who often disdain the assignment, Frontier Corps units have obsolete artillery pieces, have to travel by foot because they have no ground transport, lack night-vision equipment, and have almost no air power.

"Yesterday they had one helicopter operating," a senior Western diplomat in Islamabad said during a recent interview. "If they had two, it was a good day."

Reluctant to offend a crucial ally, the United States has placed few conditions on the military aid, part of a larger package of U.S. aid and payments totaling more than $10 billion. As a result, Pakistan used much of it to acquire big-ticket weapons systems and other items to shore up its conventional defense capabilities, U.S. officials said.

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which oversees U.S. weapons transfers, said that shipments to Pakistan since the Sept. 11 attacks had included some equipment that could be useful in pursuing militants in the tribal areas, including 4,000 radios and 12 refurbished attack helicopters. But even those items went to the regular army, the agency said, and are unlikely to be shared with the Frontier Corps, which falls under a separate branch of the Pakistani government.

The majority of Pakistan's purchases have been of items that would be difficult to deploy in counterinsurgency fights, including harpoon missiles designed to sink warships, F-16 fighter jets, maritime surveillance aircraft and refurbished howitzers that have to be towed into position.

"It's hard to make arguments that the bulk of what is being provided by the U.S. is very effective for counter-terrorism operations," said Alan Kronstadt, a specialist in South Asian affairs at the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service. "A lot of the military assistance has been much more useful for a potential war with India."

Musharraf's emergency declaration could force a review of U.S. aid, a move Democratic lawmakers said Sunday they would support.

The U.S. and Pakistan have spent part of the last year developing what one Pentagon official described as a "multiyear plan" to bolster the Frontier Corps' capabilities, U.S. officials said.

Pakistan has already begun recruiting more troops, with plans to expand the corps to 100,000.U.S. funding would help pay for the increase, as well as a training center that will focus on counterinsurgency tactics.

The Pentagon has budgeted $55 million in counter-narcotics funds for the Frontier Corps this year to pay for night-vision equipment and communications gear. But the Pentagon is also seeking additional funding in a separate category that could be used for weapons. Officials declined to discuss specifics.

"It's nothing really sexy," said the senior Pentagon official involved in Pakistan policy. "But they need to be at least on par with the militants."
 
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Perhaps as a hedge against those concerns, the U.S. Special Operations Command has recently begun exploring efforts to pay off tribal militias in the region that are not affiliated with the Pakistani government, and arm them to root out Al Qaeda and Taliban militants, a source familiar with the discussions said.

"You can't buy them, but you can rent them," said the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the discussions. "There is a very serious effort to look at this."

Are you kidding me?

They want to arm more mercenaries? Haven't they done enough by arming the Taliban in the first place?
 
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Third town in Swat falls to militants -DAWN - Top Stories; November 07, 2007


Third town in Swat falls to militants

PESHAWAR, Nov 6: Militants seized the town of Madyan in Swat on Tuesday and hoisted their flags over buildings after security forces surrendered, police and residents said.

Madyan is the third town to come under the effective control of followers of Maulana Fazlullah, who is demanding enforcement of Sharia in Swat.

“They seized Madyan town today, they have overrun Matta and Khwazakhela towns in their earlier push,” a police official said.

Police gave up their weapons, vehicles and control of local police stations, the officer and local residents said.

The militants are continuing their advance, the official said.

Residents said the militants were patrolling the town.

Witnesses said Fazlullah’s supporters hoisted their flags over government buildings and guarded important sites, such as banks and bazaars.

At least 37 police and paramilitary soldiers left the main police station without a fight after militants surrounded the town and assured them that they would not be harmed, residents said.

A militant source said police turned over 35 Kalashnikovs. Police also retreated from two more police posts in nearby villages.

Earlier, the militants seized the Matta town after outnumbered security forces laid down their arms, militants and police said.

About two dozen police officers and several troops offered no resistance to militants who seized three police stations and a military post in and around Matta.

A Swat police official said authorities had sent helicopter gunships to target militant positions in the area.—Agencies
 
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I think the contention that the FC has been shafted is pretty correct. When Pakistan was buying "big ticket" items for its regular army, the threat from the Tribal areas was not what it is today. We were expecting the peace deals and "local enforcement" to do the job. Unfortunately the threat and the importance of the FC in dealing with it was underestimated.
 
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Pentagon draws up plans to train, expand Frontier Corps
WASHINGTON: The Pentagon has a plan to train and expand a paramilitary Frontier Corps (FC) in Pakistan's tribal areas to counter the growing strength of al-Qaeda and Taliban forces, Pentagon spokesman said on Monday.

Additionally, the US Special Operations Command is making separate plans for ways to increase the counter-terrorism cooperation with the Pakistani military and to boost their capabilities, they said.

The efforts come amid US concerns over the spread of Islamic militancy. Geoff Morrell, the Pentagon press secretary, said the plan to expand the FC has been in the making for months but was not yet underway. The planning by the Tampa, Florida-based Special Operations Command, on the other hand, has not yet been sent up the military chain of the command for approval, and consisted of concepts for enhancing counter-terrorism cooperation and capabilities in Pakistan, the officials said.

ìIt involved capabilities that would help pursue the type of disruptive influences that are in Pakistan,
without going into specifics,î said Bryan Whitman, another Pentagon spokesman. The New York Times said the plans were part of an intensified effort to enlist tribal leaders in the fight against the Taliban and al-Qaeda and that the plans would likely expand the presence of US military trainers in Pakistan. It said there were currently about 50 US troops in Pakistan, but dozens more would be needed if the plans come to fruition. So far, US military assistance to the Pakistani military has been limited to air assault training, according to Whitman, who said US funding for that fell from $27 million in fiscal year 2006 to $5.3 million in fiscal 2007.

The FC, whose recruits are drawn from the tribes in Pakistanís Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), has not previously received equipment or training from the US military. The 80,000-member force, which maintains local law and order and patrols the rugged border with Afghanistan, has performed poorly against militants in the tribal areas, where local sympathies run in favour of the Taliban. But drawing on the US experience in Iraq's Anbar province, where tribally-based militias have been recruited as allies against al-Qaeda, the US military is shifting its focus to the FC as a potential ally. The United States has already committed $150 million a year over five years to improve the economy in the border area, and is looking to an expanded FC to help provide security, Morrell said. "There is also a desire to help the FC to expand and train. That is something that is being developed," he said.
Pentagon draws up plans to train, expand Frontier Corps

The highlighted parts refer to the SOC cooperating with the SSG and other special forces I assume.
 
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Give them heavy APCs like achzarit, MRAPs like cougar and artillary like type 56 manpacks.

I'd quite like to see them trained along French foreign legion lines due to similarities like officers coming from the main army.
 
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