Featured Pakistan Navy Type 054AP Frigates - Update, News & Discussion

[YeBeWarned]

I remain interested in why PN does not want to upgrade its F22ps inspite of theChinese offer.

I know you didn't ask my Opinion but i think F-22P by design is limited in terms of Upgrades ..

brother, the way type54b going is more like ROYAL navy type 45. the best way to reduce sound signature is to make it electric propulsion and CODAG.

we will see type 54b rolling out next year.

one QC280 gasturbine and two france liscnesed produced Diesel engine can make it sailing easily beyond 32 KNOTS.

and yes, type 54 shall have the.ability to fire HQ9b with 220Km range.

any idea how type 54B will be different from CS 4000 Tons Frigate ?

 

[monitor]

Upcoming Type 54A should have the potential to upgrade to next level of expected Type 54B standard or beyond to stand against the growing IN . Especially long range anti missile and air defences is top most probably to deny IN air cover any free space.
One thing is PN until now haven't taken any indigenous Frigate program . Pakistan can go for Chinese 4000 ton export frigate/ Type 54A based indigenous program with necessary upgrade that can face future challenges.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

PN makes a judgement based on its requirements and its budget. The 054A provides all the requisite capabilities in the ball park figure at a price to fit PN's bidget. The Chinese Government sanctions loans to buy the product and so it happens. The capabilities are current and much beyond what PN currently has. So a welcome step. The quality of product and armaments and upgradeability is something only PLAN/ PN can comment on. Obviously with mass production of a mature design quality would have to be good. Howecer for the moment lets leave that discussion out of the fray. Once the product arrives it will be a litmus test for its quality. I remain interested in why PN does not want to upgrade its F22ps inspite of theChinese offer.
@Bilal Khan 777 , @Bilal Khan (Quwa),@Oscar any thoughts.
A

Basically.

The Type 054A (and the Type 039A or Type 041) also benefit from immense scale via the PLA's own requirements. So the hardware is already coming at a cost that's close to the cost of production (with minimal overhead or sunk cost to amortize).

Just throwing it out there, but I think another reason for opting for stuff already in PLA use is to open up the later possibility of leasing PLA stuff - e.g. PLAN Type 054As - in the lead-up of tensions.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

Basically.

The Type 054A (and the Type 039A or Type 041) also benefit from immense scale via the PLA's own requirements. So the hardware is already coming at a cost that's close to the cost of production (with minimal overhead or sunk cost to amortize).

Just throwing it out there, but I think another reason for opting for stuff already in PLA use is to open up the later possibility of leasing PLA stuff - e.g. PLAN Type 054As - in the lead-up of tensions.

totally a noob question , Sir g , hope u do answer in detail ,
We got our frigates T-54A(medium seize ) from China which is very good, now on heavy Frigates or a Medium Seize Destroyer can Pakistan work with Turkey on their future programmes?? Can PN work with Turkey and take Istanbul class to next level???
Please do not bring money in , just imagine we have those $$$$ .. Thanks a lot

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

totally a noob question , Sir g , hope u do answer in detail ,
We got our frigates T-54A(medium seize ) from China which is very good, now on heavy Frigates or a Medium Seize Destroyer can Pakistan work with Turkey on their future programmes?? Can PN work with Turkey and take Istanbul class to next level???
Please do not bring money in , just imagine we have those $$$$ .. Thanks a lot

With the Type 054A in the pipeline, no need for the I-Class. The I-Class and Type 054A basically fulfil the same mission roles. Instead, the PN could focus on improving its 2,000 to 3,000-ton ships (i.e. F-22P and, if the deal is signed in the end, MILGEM) with better sensors and, ideally, some air defence capabilities.

If it was me, I'd aim to equip the Type 054A with medium-to-long-range anti-air warfare (AAW) capabilities, e.g. 100-120 km range SAM at the minimum, with a long-range air surveillance radar and over-the-horizon radar for surface targeting. Then I'd work on upgrading the F-22P with new sensors and VLS with Umkhonto EIR (30-35 km), while skipping the MILGEM Ada in favour of the LF-2400. I'd equip the LF-2400 the same way I'd upgrade the F-22P.

 

[syed_yusuf]

With the Type 054A in the pipeline, no need for the I-Class. The I-Class and Type 054A basically fulfil the same mission roles. Instead, the PN could focus on improving its 2,000 to 3,000-ton ships (i.e. F-22P and, if the deal is signed in the end, MILGEM) with better sensors and, ideally, some air defence capabilities.

If it was me, I'd aim to equip the Type 054A with medium-to-long-range anti-air warfare (AAW) capabilities, e.g. 100-120 km range SAM at the minimum, with a long-range air surveillance radar and over-the-horizon radar for surface targeting. Then I'd work on upgrading the F-22P with new sensors and VLS with Umkhonto EIR (30-35 km), while skipping the MILGEM Ada in favour of the LF-2400. I'd equip the LF-2400 the same way I'd upgrade the F-22P.

yes i agree or have a modified version of MILGEM with VLS

 

[Armchair]

Basically.

The Type 054A (and the Type 039A or Type 041) also benefit from immense scale via the PLA's own requirements. So the hardware is already coming at a cost that's close to the cost of production (with minimal overhead or sunk cost to amortize).

Just throwing it out there, but I think another reason for opting for stuff already in PLA use is to open up the later possibility of leasing PLA stuff - e.g. PLAN Type 054As - in the lead-up of tensions.

That is an interesting point. With a major warship the same as PLAN, it would be easy to ramp up during tensions. Bit like how F-7s were sent during tensions. This also means it may be good policy to have a tank and a fighter aircraft that has the same logistical utility. This alone should make a squadron of J-10s or some other PLAAF aircraft an important acquisition, as well as regards the Type 99 MBT.

Could such a strategy be the beginning of a NATO like strategy of commonality?

How could SCO or relations with Turkey utilize a similar set of relationships?

 

[LKJ86]

What will the Type 054A be called in Pakistan?

 

[YeBeWarned]

With the Type 054A in the pipeline, no need for the I-Class. The I-Class and Type 054A basically fulfil the same mission roles. Instead, the PN could focus on improving its 2,000 to 3,000-ton ships (i.e. F-22P and, if the deal is signed in the end, MILGEM) with better sensors and, ideally, some air defence capabilities.

If it was me, I'd aim to equip the Type 054A with medium-to-long-range anti-air warfare (AAW) capabilities, e.g. 100-120 km range SAM at the minimum, with a long-range air surveillance radar and over-the-horizon radar for surface targeting. Then I'd work on upgrading the F-22P with new sensors and VLS with Umkhonto EIR (30-35 km), while skipping the MILGEM Ada in favour of the LF-2400. I'd equip the LF-2400 the same way I'd upgrade the F-22P.

What is the benefit of having LF-2400 and Upgraded F-22P which you want to be on par with LF-2400 ..? what do you think about PN placing another order for 4 more Type 54 after the initial batch by 2021 ..

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

That is an interesting point. With a major warship the same as PLAN, it would be easy to ramp up during tensions. Bit like how F-7s were sent during tensions. This also means it may be good policy to have a tank and a fighter aircraft that has the same logistical utility. This alone should make a squadron of J-10s or some other PLAAF aircraft an important acquisition, as well as regards the Type 99 MBT.

Could such a strategy be the beginning of a NATO like strategy of commonality?

How could SCO or relations with Turkey utilize a similar set of relationships?

NATO carries a pact, I don't think China or Pakistan will commit to actively fight for one another (against other states). But they can skirt around some issues by maintaining common logistics and maintenance channels, which can enable Pakistan to rapidly strengthen its forces at relatively low cost.

What is the benefit of having LF-2400 and Upgraded F-22P which you want to be on par with LF-2400 ..? what do you think about PN placing another order for 4 more Type 54 after the initial batch by 2021 ..

F-22P + LF-2400 as lower-cost complements to offer ASW and AShW, while the 054A provides them with area-wide AAW.

 

[Armchair]

PN makes a judgement based on its requirements and its budget. The 054A provides all the requisite capabilities in the ball park figure at a price to fit PN's bidget. The Chinese Government sanctions loans to buy the product and so it happens. The capabilities are current and much beyond what PN currently has. So a welcome step. The quality of product and armaments and upgradeability is something only PLAN/ PN can comment on. Obviously with mass production of a mature design quality would have to be good. Howecer for the moment lets leave that discussion out of the fray. Once the product arrives it will be a litmus test for its quality. I remain interested in why PN does not want to upgrade its F22ps inspite of theChinese offer.
@Bilal Khan 777 , @Bilal Khan (Quwa),@Oscar any thoughts.
A

I think the F-22P is a generation behind the Type 54A and given China's rapid rise, is not comparable. Type 54As have been produced in numbers not seen in almost any other ship of its class in recent times. They surely must have quite a mature product. The SAM is also known to be a mature product and @Bilal Khan 777 has commented previously that it is a SAM that works.

Its a mature, mass produced system used by the PLAN. The risks here seem relatively lower. There is also no real substitute for PN in this range, at least in the same price ballpark.

BN is still bying Type-22s, second hand ones and upgrading them. Probably a different requirement and a (slightly) different maritime environment.

 

[syed_yusuf]

any specifics on MILGEM deal or is it dead?

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Taking a bit further from what Bilal Khan wrote on improving the F22p, we have built one of the boats here in Pakistan. We know the basic design. what we need to do is:

1. Build upon the hull design of F22p (for example insert a five meter hull extension) to fit better electronics, and create space for AAW missiles. Of course it would require some design study's to ensure good sea-keeping qualities are kept intact. I don't think the Chinese would mind if we borrow their design and improve upon it.
2. Acquire western radars and electronics.
3. Integrate Aselsan combat management systems and sensors
4. Use Italian Oto Melara Super Rapid 76mm main gun (AK-176 is Installed on F-22P, it weighs 16.8 Tons while Oto Melara weighs 9 Tons with the same rate of fire but improvement in range 15.5 km vs 20 km)
5. Integrate the Turkish secondary weapons or the Chinese FM3000
6. Integrate ADA ASW sensors and weapons or Chinese towed sonar which is good.
7. Change power plant to a CODAG or COGOG. Buying a power plant would not be a problem. We have bought western power plants for both F22P and ADA from European suppliers. This will increase overall speed and enhance acceleration and maneuvering during a AShM attack. This is a weak area (Under 30 Knot speed) of all Chinese ships at this point in time. I believe Type 54B and follow-on types are remedying this aspect of their design.
8. Enhance the decoy suit against both AShM and submarine launched weapons. ADA is good in this area.
9. We can take the basic Z-9 helo and use it as a shipboard ASW aerial platform and OTH targeting system.

Basically, take the hull, redesign it, create space, mix and match sensors and weapon systems and replace the power plant.

We have access to Turkish, Chinese, and Italian systems. If need be French and Brit systems can be bought too of defensive nature.

It will take a lot of R&D but I think the Turks and the Chinese will work with us as it helps all of us by exposing certain tech. that are not readily accessible to each other.

I know it is a tall order and easier said than done. KSEW has built a Frigate sized warship and have detailed plans and construction drawings of that boat. Procuring steel from China is not an issue. Electrical harness kit can be easily replicated that from the design of F22P with required modifications. A lot of sub systems and machinery used in F22P have their origins in western designs. Winches, latches, scuttles, hatch designs, power rigs, marine motors & lights/lamps, water tight seals, etc. are all available in the market, easily.

But for this Naval Design Bureau has to be ramped up and KSEW needs to really get into the game. Start with 2 lead ships of a class and then work our way up from the learning curve.

My 2C worth.

 

[帅的一匹]

QC280 gasturbine of 30MW

Lm2500 on hull 112 frigate

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

What will the Type 054A be called in Pakistan?

Most likely, Babur Class.