Pakistan Navy: The Phoenix Rises

[Super Falcon]

What type of Phoenix of Pn weapons using or given

 

[amardeep mishra]

i know the pakistan president said at the time [2012] there developing a nuclear reactor. thats all there is.
pakistan is not as open as india and asking for such information is outrageous.

hi dear @Blue Marlin
There are a lot of things that "that particular pakistani president" said when he was in power for instance-
On the launch of PAKSAT-1 he proudly claimed pakistan has surpassed india in space and it will take "30 months" for indians to achieve anything similar. So i will take his claims with a pinch of salt. A more credible report would be from their nuclear energy comission,their navy or intelligence reports etc. Btw,you still havent answered my question-"how will you hide a nuclear reactor"?Please answer this question.

With VLF infrastructure ready and resulting 'talking' within different participants and with Command, 3+1 is a hell of a tag team.

Hi dear @ghazi768
Pardon me for raising this issue,but does PN have dedicated VLF antennae infrastructure that lets submarines talk to ground stations?

 

[The Accountant]

So how do you think pakistan "hides" a naval reactor?Lets shed some light on this,Oh wait,I hope I didnt ask anything confidential?

In the similar way we hide nuclear weapons... After 1998 detonations indians had the same attitude ... So wakeup ... You are not the only one with brain .. Just one question .. Lets assume there is a naval reactor .. Should its picture be made public considering sensitivity of project ?

 

[mrrehan]

Very satisfying detailed article. Thanks for your effort sir.
But honestly speaking in view of the financial difficulties the we can't have much needed hardware for our forces. Pakistan is full of resources but the loyalty of the political elite is a stopper. I believe first we got to win the war against financial corruption. Hats off for the those making all the efforts to find the best for country. PAKISTAN ZINDAABAD

 

[The Accountant]

Hi

My knowledge of naval warfare and submarine warfare is limited. But in interest of general readership here writing what I have heard or read in general.

Nuclear strategic subs have some pros and cons as well. They can remain submerged for very long times conditional to stores of foods and other necessities they can carry and the length of duty the crew is deemed to carry on while still having sound psychological, emotional and physical health. Which unfortunately is not considered to be too long duration because of the environment they have to operate in. This results in maintaining complex logistics operations and if you are planning to operate in many oceans a set of bases. During cold war both US and soviets needed to maintain a set of far off bases to allow their nuclear subs to operate the world over. If we plan to operate a deterrent force out of Indian ocean lets say in Pacific and Atlantic, is it possible? do we have the economic/financial and military might to even secure one base in each to operate from?

Also because of being nuclear, they do generate low frequency sound radiation which is more detectable at distance using passive sonar arrays and also tend to be quite unique allowing categorisation as well. They also tend to generate thermal radiation and cannot avoid this as being nuclear, which also makes it impossible for them to remain stationary unless they are under the Arctic ice cap (which is by the way how most of soviet strategic subs operated but than required large sets of hunter-killer escorts to keep US hunter-killers away). Even if they remain stationary they still generate low frequency acoustic radiation.

Diesel-electrics when stationary from what I have heard from an expert submariner is like 'pin drop silence'. In such states you can only hunt them with active sonars which being high-medium frequency have 5-10 nm range at best. And also means that unless you are right on top of that sub, that sub will detect you far more away and be able to take evasive actions to avoid detection. DEs main weakness from second world war onward was need to recharge batteries, this needed them to at-least snorkel periodically which increased chances of detection. Better battery technology and AIPs have changed this (but all AIPs are not created equal and do tend to increase LF acoustic radiation).

Now if you do not give a damn about power symbols and or going around the world in 80 days and have a large and very deep ocean just besides you. What will you do? plan on operating in Pacific or Atlantic or Arctic?

What I "suspect" we'll have get is 4 + 4 resulting in 7 + 4 and increased in future more especially HK. With VLF infrastructure ready and resulting 'talking' within different participants and with Command, 3+1 is a hell of a tag team.

Hi ghazi bhayya ... Nuclear submarine is required to form a true and reliable nuclear triad ... India is investing heavily in SAMs to counter ****'s missles ... Pakistan's cruise missiles may evade long range and medium range SAMs but defeating a point defence SAMs is not an easu task for cruise missle .. On the contrary mirv capable ballistic missiles are almost impossible to stop reliablyy ... Thats the main reason Pakistan wants nuclear submarine ... Only one of such submarine can serve the purpose ... It will be a great deterrent just like nasar...

 

[Spy Master]

hi dear @Blue Marlin
There are a lot of things that "that particular pakistani president" said when he was in power for instance-
On the launch of PAKSAT-1 he proudly claimed pakistan has surpassed india in space and it will take "30 months" for indians to achieve anything similar. So i will take his claims with a pinch of salt. A more credible report would be from their nuclear energy comission,their navy or intelligence reports etc. Btw,you still havent answered my question-"how will you hide a nuclear reactor"?Please answer this question.


Hi dear @ghazi768
Pardon me for raising this issue,but does PN have dedicated VLF antennae infrastructure that lets submarines talk to ground stations?

As @Oscar said, no one is forcing you to believe anything. If you think Pakistan is not able build reactor then go ahead and keep believing it, we dont have any problem with that but don't ruin thread out of your hatred for Pakistan and believing that India is somehow "VERY" ahead of Pakistan. Still after all the claims of yours, If you have any +ve thing to contribute in this thread then you are Welcome,,,!

 

[SQ8]

My dear @Bilal Khan 777
How can you keep a full blown reactor concealed for decades?Dont you think if there was a naval reactor operational then the world would have known about it?You see what i dont like is un-necessary drooling over un-substantiated rumours. I would be fine if there were hard facts,scientific literature,tests launches etc--but since there is no such thing ,i would rather wait than indulging in speculations.


@Oscar
My dear,Oscar,How about you prove me wrong based on hard facts instead of speculations?Or speculations is what is taught as a part of broader curriculum in pakistani technical education?I thought you're a person of reason and since you have experience,you would KNOW the technical complexities involved--but,I am afraid,sometimes the way you talk about R&D projects make me wonder.Anyways,back to the topic,How about we discuss something concrete instead of speculations based on statements of random analysts or officers!
I remember listening to a lecture delivered by none other Gen Khalid Kidwai and I was amazed by the sheer ambiguity and opaqueness with which he was talking about "second strike" capability. In contrast to the lecture delivered by Head of our SFC,he was very ambiguous. But keeping everything aside,when we get down to analysing feasibility of a project,we do consider the established capacity of a particular country to undertake a task of a particular nature. Now what you have ignored(in your last paragraph--as I am only talking about the last para alone and not your entire article) is the established R&D capabilities and industrial maturity of your country to undertake a nuclear submarine project.You have also not provided the basis of your thinking apart from the statements from some random officials and analysts. Kindly do explain how and why do you think pakistan can design a sea going LWR especially when it has practically no experience of designing nuclear power plants.

Your problem is you thinking I am trying to prove you wrong. My notion is to NOT convince you of what I know to be true. You have in your own post outlined how it could have been achieved.
I have no reason or wish to convince you, But if you are attempting to convince me that it is not possible then I will disagree. This is not a case of. "If Pakistan build the JF-17 it can do a 5th generation fighter" , this is a case of "it exists and I have it on very very good authority".
I can bet this claim on my reputation, can you do the same if this becomes public 10 years from now?

We actually appreciate this skepticism because it helps our wish to keep India and Indians continuously underestimating us.
No hard feelings.

 

[IceCold]

some people never learn the lessons of history

You mean Indian history?

Maybe instead of trying to match India, Pakistan & India, I don't know, .... make peace?

Easy said than done. Dont be utterly naive. At least look at your own DP before making such a statement. Pakistan is not matching India we are just making sure no body attacks us and get away with that. Had we be not doing this the world would have seen Indian jets bombing the shit out of Pakistan day in and day out and not doing squat about it just like in Palestine, Kashmir, Syria.

 

[wiseone2]

In the similar way we hide nuclear weapons... After 1998 detonations indians had the same attitude ... So wakeup ... You are not the only one with brain .. Just one question .. Lets assume there is a naval reactor .. Should its picture be made public considering sensitivity of project ?

the science behind nuclear bomb was published

the science behind miniature nuclear reactors is little more restricted

 

[amardeep mishra]

Lets assume there is a naval reactor .. Should its picture be made public considering sensitivity of project ?

The problem with nuclear reactors though is,if "there exists" one,the whole world will know about it! It is a freaking power plant-although a smaller one! It is not as easy as lets say hiding your nukes

"it exists and I have it on very very good authority".

@Oscar
Again,"if it exists" the whole world will know about it as it is a NUCLEAR POWER PLANT and not a warhead that you can hide in trucks or something else! The sheer size required(I am talking about the building and required infrastructure etc) to construct the naval prototype will reveal if pakistan does indeed have a naval reactor. And to be honest,no one under estimates pakistan. We very well know "how" pakistan acquires itz strategic weapons--but at the end of the day-what matters is,no matter how illegally pakistan would have eventually realized her nuclear ambitions--it can still wreak havoc!
But here we are not talking about nukes,we are talking about a "nuclear plant" that cant remain hidden for long.Btw,how do you think you will hide a complete nuclear power plant?

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

Easy said than done. Dont be utterly naive. At least look at your own DP before making such a statement. Pakistan is not matching India we are just making sure no body attacks us and get away with that. Had we be not doing this the world would have seen Indian jets bombing the shit out of Pakistan day in and day out and not doing squat about it just like in Palestine, Kashmir, Syria.

My post was for the guy who's more interested in having X amount of something.

But, still, eh, lets not detract this thread.

 

[The Accountant]

The problem with nuclear reactors though is,if "there exists" one,the whole world will know about it! It is a freaking power plant-although a smaller one! It is not as easy as lets say hiding your nukes


@Oscar
Again,"if it exists" the whole world will know about it as it is a NUCLEAR POWER PLANT and not a warhead that you can hide in trucks or something else! The sheer size required(I am talking about the building and required infrastructure etc) to construct the naval prototype will reveal if pakistan does indeed have a naval reactor. And to be honest,no one under estimates pakistan. We very well know "how" pakistan acquires itz strategic weapons--but at the end of the day-what matters is,no matter how illegally pakistan would have eventually realized her nuclear ambitions--it can still wreak havoc!
But here we are not talking about nukes,we are talking about a "nuclear plant" that cant remain hidden for long.Btw,how do you think you will hide a complete nuclear power plant?

Agreed itt will be known to all inteligence agencies but would it be in public knowledge ? It would be in knowledge of some insiders like Oscar bhai and tthats what he is stating ...

 

[amardeep mishra]

we dont have any problem with that but don't ruin thread out of your hatred for Pakistan and believing that India is somehow "VERY" ahead of Pakistan. Still after all the claims of yours, If you have any +ve thing to contribute in this thread then you are Welcome,,,!

Hi dear @Spy Master
I dont have "hatred" for any particular country.I dont understand as to why do you think that way?Did I ever use foul language against pakistan or for that matter even against those pakistanis abusing me?Like that gentleman above?-No,right?
I am a fierce supporter of research and I can indeed "prove" each and every statement i make regarding indian R&D efforts unlike a lot of pakistanis who have a very bad habit of not only buying consipracy theory but also not paying any serious attention to true research and development potential of their own country. Lastly you dont have to believe india is ahead of pakistan--but please,do pay attention to the R&D activities taking place in your "sworn enemy" country.Do pay attention to number of R&D projects going on,private sector research,number of patents filed and funding etc etc. I am sure you'd get the drift as to "who" is ahead of "whom"

 

[The Accountant]

the science behind nuclear bomb was published

the science behind miniature nuclear reactors is little more restricted

Dont we have nasar ? As per your argument even nasar is way above paks capabilities ... Pakistan's industrial base is pathetic but in nuclear and missile ttech we have done wonders ... Quoting samar mubarakmand ... Pakistani nuclear scintists are now so mature in the field that they design and validate new nuclear weapon designs in months ...

 

[wiseone2]

Dont we have nasar ? As per your argument even nasar is way above paks capabilities ... Pakistan's industrial base is pathetic but in nuclear and missile ttech we have done wonders ... Quoting samar mubarakmand ... Pakistani nuclear scintists are now so mature in the field that they design and validate new nuclear weapon designs in months ...

Nasr is short range ballistic missile
It is legal to export them