PAKISTAN NAVY SHIPS: YARMOOK-CLASS CORVETTE

[Armchair]

If you have seen Rafi post 30 to 40 is the size of Surface fleet. Submarines not included


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Seems a very long-term plan way after the Chinese subs and more importantly, read his disclaimer - if the economy and finances allow. Which they don't.

 

[Zarvan]

Seems a very long-term plan way after the Chinese subs and more importantly, read his disclaimer - if the economy and finances allow. Which they don't.

Sir from which angle do you think our economy allowed us to buy 4 Type 54 and 4 MILGEM Corvettes and two Yarmook and Tabuk Corvettes plus 8 Submarines. Not to forget things and weapons Pakistan Air Force and Army has on order.

 

[HRK]

Sir from which angle do you think our economy allowed us to buy 4 Type 54 and 4 MILGEM Corvettes

from the angle of 'Financing' ....

 

[Aamir Hussain]

4 F22P's
4 Milgems
4 Type 54A's
2 Yarmook class Corvettes

All Type 21 Frigates fill be retired as soon as four Type 54 arrive.
The lone OHP will also be retired by 2024 when most of the Milgems would have arrived.

3 Upgraded AIP Agosta 90B
8 Hangor Class

2 Agosta 70's will be retired as soon as the Chinese subs come

2+1 Fleet Replenishment ships. I more replenishment ship will be ordered.

3 Munsif (Eridian) Class minesweepers

This is the shape of major surface combatants/Auxiliaries of PN fleet till 2026

 

[Yasser76]

4 F22P's
4 Milgems
4 Type 54A's
2 Yarmook class Corvettes

All Type 21 Frigates fill be retired as soon as four Type 54 arrive.
The lone OHP will also be retired by 2024 when most of the Milgems would have arrived.

3 Upgraded AIP Agosta 90B
8 Hangor Class

2 Agosta 70's will be retired as soon as the Chinese subs come

2+1 Fleet Replenishment ships. I more replenishment ship will be ordered.

3 Munsif (Eridian) Class minesweepers

This is the shape of major surface combatants/Auxiliaries of PN fleet till 2026

Back this up with a 10 plane MPA force (mixture of ATR and new Jet) and you have a very credible deterrent

Back this up with a 10 plane MPA force (mixture of ATR and new Jet) and you have a very credible deterrent

Just need new choppers ASAP

 

[maverick1977]

Pakistan need

4 Destroyers
4 more Frigates
4 Wasp troop deployments for Pak Marines, brigade size
2 sq J16 type heavy squardons for long range naval and air umbrella ..
1 sq long range H6N in MPA role

 

[Armchair]

Sir from which angle do you think our economy allowed us to buy 4 Type 54 and 4 MILGEM Corvettes and two Yarmook and Tabuk Corvettes plus 8 Submarines. Not to forget things and weapons Pakistan Air Force and Army has on order.

by overstretching due to perceived vulnerability. If you take in even more loans of this, you'll be destroying not only your future but burdening the future of your kids and grand kids.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

by overstretching due to perceived vulnerability. If you take in even more loans of this, you'll be destroying not only your future but burdening the future of your kids and grand kids.

IMHO... it would've been wiser to take it slow with all surface warships.

Ultimately, even 12 modern frigates isn't going to tip the balance in Pakistan's favour against India. Rather, the biggest difference-maker in the naval equation was A2/AD, and for that, the PN was fine with a large number of submarines, ideally paired with AShM-equipped JF-17s (via PAF), FACs, and shore-based ASBMs.

It isn't pretty, but it would've deterred the IN from trying to impose a MEZ. Granted, the PN would still need ships for peacetime sea control, but I think commercial-grade OPVs bought at $50-60 m a ship would've done fine for that role.

For surface warships, it was better to just focus on the developmental track. I would have stuck with solely the MILGEM-J, and omitted the Ada and Type 054A/P. Simply, work with Turkey on designing a frigate for the future, and learn to manufacture it on your own without OEM-supplied KoMs through the 2030s.

By back-loading the frigate (via MILGEM-J), the PN could've aimed for a much more ambitious design, and consolidated on a single type for 12-16 ships (much like the major navies elsewhere around the world).

Otherwise, front-load more submarines.

 

[Yasser76]

IMHO... it would've been wiser to take it slow with all surface warships.

Ultimately, even 12 modern frigates isn't going to tip the balance in Pakistan's favour against India. Rather, the biggest difference-maker in the naval equation was A2/AD, and for that, the PN was fine with a large number of submarines, ideally paired with AShM-equipped JF-17s (via PAF), FACs, and shore-based ASBMs.

It isn't pretty, but it would've deterred the IN from trying to impose a MEZ. Granted, the PN would still need ships for peacetime sea control, but I think commercial-grade OPVs bought at $50-60 m a ship would've done fine for that role.

For surface warships, it was better to just focus on the developmental track. I would have stuck with solely the MILGEM-J, and omitted the Ada and Type 054A/P. Simply, work with Turkey on designing a frigate for the future, and learn to manufacture it on your own without OEM-supplied KoMs through the 2030s.

By back-loading the frigate (via MILGEM-J), the PN could've aimed for a much more ambitious design, and consolidated on a single type for 12-16 ships (much like the major navies elsewhere around the world).

Otherwise, front-load more submarines.

Finally some wisdom on here!

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Finally some wisdom on here!

Controversially, if you did want to kill money, then spend it on the best submarines available on the market (*cough* Type 214 *cough*)?

Cutting the 3 MILGEM Ada and 4 Type 054A/P might have yielded another $2-3 billion US, and add that to the $3 b spent on Hangor, you would've had $6 billion US for new SSK/SSPs.

Even if the Germans quoted you $500 million per sub, you could've gotten 12 Type 214s (but we might have trimmed a few things, likely around $450 m).

 

[Yasser76]

Pakistan need

4 Destroyers
4 more Frigates
4 Wasp troop deployments for Pak Marines, brigade size
2 sq J16 type heavy squardons for long range naval and air umbrella ..
1 sq long range H6N in MPA role

4 Troop carriers? For when we invade Mumbai!!!!???? What is the purpose of Pak Marines invading anywhere in India? For the time, money, effort and countless casualties what will it acheive?
Who will provide logistics and air support for such a Brigade sized formation? What will be it's overall objectives?

Controversially, if you did want to kill money, then spend it on the best submarines available on the market (*cough* Type 214 *cough*)?

Cutting the 3 MILGEM Ada and 4 Type 054A/P might have yielded another $2-3 billion US, add that to the $3 b spent on Hangor, you would've had $6 b for new SSK/SSPs. Based on the $$$ Germany quoted the PN for the Type 214s, they could've gotten 9-12 submarines easily.

Very true but the surface fleet was in dire need of replacement, we would of had a cutting edge Sub fleet with 50 year old Type 21 Frigates.

Also I guess Germany wont plat ball in modifying these for nuke deterence needs or integrating our cruise missiles, China happy to do this. Hopefully now Chinese Sub tech has caught up to a large degree with the very best in Europe.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

4 Troop carriers? For when we invade Mumbai!!!!???? What is the purpose of Pak Marines invading anywhere in India? For the time, money, effort and countless casualties what will it acheive?
Who will provide logistics and air support for such a Brigade sized formation? What will be it's overall objectives?



Very true but the surface fleet was in dire need of replacement, we would of had a cutting edge Sub fleet with 50 year old Type 21 Frigates.

Also I guess Germany wont plat ball in modifying these for nuke deterence needs or integrating our cruise missiles, China happy to do this. Hopefully now Chinese Sub tech has caught up to a large degree with the very best in Europe.

Yep and that's if you want to kill money. I think 12 Type 039A would've been great.

For replacing the Type 21s, perhaps stick to commercial-grade OPVs for peacetime sea control? It isn't ideal, but $50-60 m per ship isn't bad, and the 4 frigates wouldn't have had a big impact against India anyways.

 

[Armchair]

IMHO... it would've been wiser to take it slow with all surface warships.

Ultimately, even 12 modern frigates isn't going to tip the balance in Pakistan's favour against India. Rather, the biggest difference-maker in the naval equation was A2/AD, and for that, the PN was fine with a large number of submarines, ideally paired with AShM-equipped JF-17s (via PAF), FACs, and shore-based ASBMs.

It isn't pretty, but it would've deterred the IN from trying to impose a MEZ. Granted, the PN would still need ships for peacetime sea control, but I think commercial-grade OPVs bought at $50-60 m a ship would've done fine for that role.

For surface warships, it was better to just focus on the developmental track. I would have stuck with solely the MILGEM-J, and omitted the Ada and Type 054A/P. Simply, work with Turkey on designing a frigate for the future, and learn to manufacture it on your own without OEM-supplied KoMs through the 2030s.

By back-loading the frigate (via MILGEM-J), the PN could've aimed for a much more ambitious design, and consolidated on a single type for 12-16 ships (much like the major navies elsewhere around the world).

Otherwise, front-load more submarines.

That is a brilliant post and I concur. It is what all contemporary naval wars from WWII to now has taught us - submarines and aircraft are the key. For some odd reason it missed the PN.

The only thing I would add are:

1. Unmanned UUVs (robotic mini submarines). Basically you can't control them much, they are like mad and suicidal attack dogs. You set them loose, give them an area to go to and create a mess. Say, for instance, one putters off from Karachi, no control, but goes underwater, heads near a designated Indian port, if something shows up from an East to North West vector, it gets a bad day.

If nothing shows up, it reaches near the Indian port, lays mines, and shoots torpedoes at any and all boats at the port. Once it is out of ammo, it blows up taking whatever else it can with it.

Imagine the headache that would create for every single Indian port and sea lane on their West coast. It would be a nightmare to face. And at the cost of no Pakistani lives and a small investment.

2. A 400 - 500 ton mine laying submarine. These were in fact the subs that got the most kills during the War but were the cheapest and smaller submarines. They don't need great loiter time or deep diving capability. This is how the Germans used them - they go off a port, stay abou 50 meters below the surface.

Reach near a port / sea lane (perhaps at a safe distance from the mad dogs we sent earlier in (1). Lays mines and comes back home. No need for deep diving stalking or staying on station to get a hot kill.

As the mad dogs start doing their work, the mine laying submarine turns around and scoots back home. I'd simply add one more addition other than the German concept - a single ballistic / cruise missile at the back to fire off as the submarine leaves the operational area. Aimed at the general direction of the Indian port, the cruise missile / ballistic missile will lock on to any boat it sees or simply crash into the port.

This would cause the Indians to get upset and set off a knee jerk reaction, speeding up in their frigates and destroyers, exactly to the mine field layed by the mine layer and the UUV. By then the mine laying submarine has already left the area and the IN warships are headed straight to their designated mines...

How much would these UUVs and submarines cost? A fraction of the cost of all these big ships and big egos. But the damage they would do would be disproportional. As was in fact the case both in WWI, WWII and the Falklands.

I once met a US senior officer who told me a story about their submarines finding a gigantic fleet of British warships at the bottom of the Atlantic, between Argentina and the Falklands. He laughed and said that the British were too ashamed to admit how much they lost and hid their actual losses by a gigantic margin. @MastanKhan thought you may find that interesting.

 

[maverick1977]

4 Troop carriers? For when we invade Mumbai!!!!???? What is the purpose of Pak Marines invading anywhere in India? For the time, money, effort and countless casualties what will it acheive?
Who will provide logistics and air support for such a Brigade sized formation? What will be it's overall objectives?



Very true but the surface fleet was in dire need of replacement, we would of had a cutting edge Sub fleet with 50 year old Type 21 Frigates.

Also I guess Germany wont plat ball in modifying these for nuke deterence needs or integrating our cruise missiles, China happy to do this. Hopefully now Chinese Sub tech has caught up to a large degree with the very best in Europe.

Objective, hit the financial areas, demoralizing forces, splitting of enemy strategy in punjab and sindh. WASP can carry helis and other transport helis, J16 can extend CAP and mission support with the help of Refulers. sub can deny enemy frigates and destroyers from approaching the landing zone

when you open a front down south, you relieve pressure on main land. part of larger strategy to have an aggressive posture..

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

That is a brilliant post and I concur. It is what all contemporary naval wars from WWII to now has taught us - submarines and aircraft are the key. For some odd reason it missed the PN.

The only thing I would add are:

1. Unmanned UUVs (robotic mini submarines). Basically you can't control them much, they are like mad and suicidal attack dogs. You set them loose, give them an area to go to and create a mess. Say, for instance, one putters off from Karachi, no control, but goes underwater, heads near a designated Indian port, if something shows up from an East to North West vector, it gets a bad day.

If nothing shows up, it reaches near the Indian port, lays mines, and shoots torpedoes at any and all boats at the port. Once it is out of ammo, it blows up taking whatever else it can with it.

Imagine the headache that would create for every single Indian port and sea lane on their West coast. It would be a nightmare to face. And at the cost of no Pakistani lives and a small investment.

2. A 400 - 500 ton mine laying submarine. These were in fact the subs that got the most kills during the War but were the cheapest and smaller submarines. They don't need great loiter time or deep diving capability. This is how the Germans used them - they go off a port, stay abou 50 meters below the surface.

Reach near a port / sea lane (perhaps at a safe distance from the mad dogs we sent earlier in (1). Lays mines and comes back home. No need for deep diving stalking or staying on station to get a hot kill.

As the mad dogs start doing their work, the mine laying submarine turns around and scoots back home. I'd simply add one more addition other than the German concept - a single ballistic / cruise missile at the back to fire off as the submarine leaves the operational area. Aimed at the general direction of the Indian port, the cruise missile / ballistic missile will lock on to any boat it sees or simply crash into the port.

This would cause the Indians to get upset and set off a knee jerk reaction, speeding up in their frigates and destroyers, exactly to the mine field layed by the mine layer and the UUV. By then the mine laying submarine has already left the area and the IN warships are headed straight to their designated mines...

How much would these UUVs and submarines cost? A fraction of the cost of all these big ships and big egos. But the damage they would do would be disproportional. As was in fact the case both in WWI, WWII and the Falklands.

I once met a US senior officer who told me a story about their submarines finding a gigantic fleet of British warships at the bottom of the Atlantic, between Argentina and the Falklands. He laughed and said that the British were too ashamed to admit how much they lost and hid their actual losses by a gigantic margin. @MastanKhan thought you may find that interesting.

The 500-600-ton mine-laying sub might be doable indigenously, albeit with severe limitations to operating depth and speed. But for the specific role, it could be good enough.

Of course, you can also rope in an expert designer (e.g., DRASS) to create a bespoke design that, while not high-end, is credible in all domains (mine-laying, ASW, AShW) while also leveraging maximum local content to lower costs.