Pakistan Navy commandos training on a US ship

[war&peace]

Not necessarily. For example, the Light Commando Battalions in your army sometimes fight alongside your SSG. What would the reaction be if the premier commandos of another country were put in such humiliating situation by your LBC? This is a genuine question without ulterior motives. Such arrangements have to be avoided to maintain the morale of your SSGN. If the aim is to cross train them with other special operations, then you can reach arrangements with other countries to have certain number of your SSGN train for multiple months with them. This way they gain proper tactics. But I believe your SSGN is self-sufficient and don’t need outside training. Which makes the videos posted above all the more strange

Your assumptions are totally wrong. They are SSGN but new recruits... so get over our superiority complex and it touch with reality.

 

[Falcon26]

Your assumptions are totally wrong. They are SSGN but new recruits... so get over our superiority complex and it touch with reality.

Your assumptions are totally wrong. They are SSGN but new recruits... so get over our superiority complex and it touch with reality.

What superiority complex?

 

[war&peace]

What superiority complex?

May be I misinterpreted so sorry ..

 

[django]

My humble observations based upon some experience of working with US Army during training:

1. Average intelligence level of a grunt vs. a typical soldier from this part of the world is higher.
2. Adoption to complex tactical equipment is higher in a typical US soldier.
3. Training levels are much higher due to higher budgets as compared to what we have access to in terms finances.
4. Training is more versatile due to global reach.
5. A system of learning and putting things down in writing, at all levels, is prevalent in US Armed forces that results in more practical and upto date Field Instruction Manuals and passing on field experience is a continueous process.
6. Going by the book is prevlent vs. us cutting corners results in better quality of training.
7. Seriousness of the officer cadre towards training and understanding of their benifits results in a more robust training regimen and hence a better trained soldier.

Overall, field experience, acutal combat in varied environments and against array of "enemies," its after action analysis, incorporating that experience into instruction manuals and exercises, and institutionlize the learninig cycle coupled with larger training budgets has made US Army one of the most trained armies of the world.

Opinion gents. @Signalian @Irfan Baloch @DESERT FIGHTER @Ulla

 

[Signalian]

Opinion gents. @Signalian @Irfan Baloch @DESERT FIGHTER @Ulla

Looks like first practical training class after theory. They are learning new techniques under supervision of foreign instructors and aboard systems which are new for them, this all is rare for NCO's. Usually its officers who are sent for courses like these and then train own men. In this case, own officers are also viewing own men being trained and are silent spectators.

Foreign instructors are providing step by step guidance but im impressed that NCOs and other ranks have picked up training very quickly and are very confidently under taking all steps. I see no hesitation, no lack of will power, no confusion, infact i love the confidence and dedication the training team is showing.

In Pak Armed forces, its officers who always lead men followed by JCO's and then NCO's. Here the whole op is being conducted in the absence of a commissioned officer as a leader, this makes it a worth while effort for Pak Forces to go through this training.

 

[Basel]

I don't know why people are angry here. If trump tweet are the reason than sorry to break your bubble neither Pakistan nor USA Military establishment takes the joker seriously. In fact I can tell you USA is offering lot of stuff to us but we would have to pay full price now. So please nothing to be so angry or shocked about

Pardon me, but please prove your previous claims before making new ones.

 

[django]

Looks like first practical training class after theory. They are learning new techniques under supervision of foreign instructors and aboard systems which are new for them, this all is rare for NCO's. Usually its officers who are sent for courses like these and then train own men. In this case, own officers are also viewing own men being trained and are silent spectators.

Foreign instructors are providing step by step guidance but im impressed that NCOs and other ranks have picked up training very quickly and are very confidently under taking all steps. I see no hesitation, no lack of will power, no confusion, infact i love the confidence and dedication the training team is showing.

In Pak Armed forces, its officers who always lead men followed by JCO's and then NCO's. Here the whole op is being conducted in the absence of a commissioned officer as a leader, this makes it a worth while effort for Pak Forces to go through this training.

The individual whose post I quoted was implying the average US soldier is more mentally agile than say his Pakistani counterpart, that they can swiftly adapt to sophisticated equipment whereas it would probably take our jawans longer to achieve same level of proficiency, of course one needs to take into account the level of fluency in English of our jawans (manuals will be in English) add to that our education system in comparison to the Yanks, I in no way believe the average "US grunt" is mentally/innately more capable than the average jawan PERIOD,,,,,,,,,,,,,the jawans seem to be handling the exercise very finely indeed, however our own service men should be/will be well acquainted with these techniques, is their a specific reason we are paying good money for something we can quite easily do as well if not better than these US instructors.Kudos Signalian
@war&peace @Ulla @DESERT FIGHTER @Path-Finder Hazrat @Zarvan

 

[Dalit]

I don't know why people are angry here. If trump tweet are the reason than sorry to break your bubble neither Pakistan nor USA Military establishment takes the joker seriously. In fact I can tell you USA is offering lot of stuff to us but we would have to pay full price now. So please nothing to be so angry or shocked about

It is actually the US military establishment i.e. the Pentagon that has a hostile Pakistan policy. Trump is a fool. He reads anything offered to him on a piece of paper.

 

[war&peace]

I don't know why people are angry here. If trump tweet are the reason than sorry to break your bubble neither Pakistan nor USA Military establishment takes the joker seriously. In fact I can tell you USA is offering lot of stuff to us but we would have to pay full price now. So please nothing to be so angry or shocked about

As if before Trump, Pak-US relation were very warm and positive and then Trump came along and destroyed everything....

 

[Signalian]

The individual whose post I quoted was implying the average US soldier is more mentally agile than say his Pakistani counterpart, that they can swiftly adapt to sophisticated equipment whereas it would probably take our jawans longer to achieve same level of proficiency, of course one needs to take into account the level of fluency in English of our jawans (manuals will be in English) add to that our education system in comparison to the Yanks, I in no way believe the average "US grunt" is mentally/innately more capable than the average jawan PERIOD,,,,,,,,,,,,,the jawans seem to be handling the exercise very finely indeed, however our own service men should be/will be well acquainted with these techniques, is their a specific reason we are paying good money for something we can quite easily do as well if not better than these US instructors.Kudos Signalian
@war&peace @Ulla @DESERT FIGHTER @Path-Finder Hazrat @Zarvan

You are notorious for dragging me into topics which i quietly ignore while i have fun with one liners in flaming topics as well as messing around in members section...........

You are further Legendary in extracting from me what i try to completely avoid ...

i did not want a dispute, but i do not agree with that member's opinion. Pakistan Army has a Junior Leader Academy called JLA in Shinkiari.

https://www.pakistanarmy.gov.pk/AWPReview/TextContent.aspx?pId=293

Here sepoys, JCO's and NCO's are further trained in leadership and then given suitable appointments after course completion to lead troops at certain levels. So the infrastructure, training, courses, equipment, versatility, adaptability etc, everything is there and taught thoroughly.

Now JLA is for PA, im not sure if PN has the same facility to train their troops at the same level of Army, although it has been seen that Army provides facility for SSG (N) and Marines to some extent in Army institutions.

 

[war&peace]

The individual whose post I quoted was implying the average US soldier is more mentally agile than say his Pakistani counterpart, that they can swiftly adapt to sophisticated equipment whereas it would probably take our jawans longer to achieve same level of proficiency, of course one needs to take into account the level of fluency in English of our jawans (manuals will be in English) add to that our education system in comparison to the Yanks, I in no way believe the average "US grunt" is mentally/innately more capable than the average jawan PERIOD,,,,,,,,,,,,,the jawans seem to be handling the exercise very finely indeed, however our own service men should be/will be well acquainted with these techniques, is their a specific reason we are paying good money for something we can quite easily do as well if not better than these US instructors.Kudos Signalian
@war&peace @Ulla @DESERT FIGHTER @Path-Finder Hazrat @Zarvan

Actually if someone believes a whole nation being innately superior or inferior...he is racist ignorant mentally sick person. Education, culture, and systems play a pivotal role. South Korea used to be quite underdeveloped and were considered low-IQed but as they have progressed, prospered and developed, they are equal to any developed western nation, same goes for China, Singapore and Japan.. If Pakistan improves its education system and promotes scientific culture, it will be transformed into a develop country and same people with same genetic make up will be considered geniuses...

 

[Path-Finder]

The individual whose post I quoted was implying the average US soldier is more mentally agile than say his Pakistani counterpart, that they can swiftly adapt to sophisticated equipment whereas it would probably take our jawans longer to achieve same level of proficiency, of course one needs to take into account the level of fluency in English of our jawans (manuals will be in English) add to that our education system in comparison to the Yanks, I in no way believe the average "US grunt" is mentally/innately more capable than the average jawan PERIOD,,,,,,,,,,,,,the jawans seem to be handling the exercise very finely indeed, however our own service men should be/will be well acquainted with these techniques, is their a specific reason we are paying good money for something we can quite easily do as well if not better than these US instructors.Kudos Signalian
@war&peace @Ulla @DESERT FIGHTER @Path-Finder Hazrat @Zarvan

pointless argument, in my opinion. No one can takeaway Pakistan's win and no one can deny Pakistan against the odds stands glorious.

It all comes down to willing to make the sacrifice to achieve your objectives and Pakistani troops made the ultimate sacrifice by playing right into the hands of danger.

 

[Signalian]

@django

Furthermore, lets talk about average grunt, average soldier.

What do you think a soldier achieves in his 16-18 years of service. Just patrolling with gun on shoulder from point A to point B? Nowadays soldiers are FA pass usually, matric pass ar very rare.
There are courses in every soldiers life. Trade course, weapons course, specialised courses etc. He is selected for courses if he doesn't volunteer and some courses are mandatory.

Now lets go from arm to arm through my own experiences.

Infantry:
A long time back when batmans were a wonderful thing in the Army, a certain GOC decided to inspect an R&S unit of his Infantry Division, it was 21st Punjab i think. The CO did everything to impress the GOC but Maj General sahab was a notorious fellow like yourself. GOC summoned the Batman of the CO. Now the batman's job was cooking meals, taking laundry for ironing, doing chores of the house, accompanying sweeper during the cleaning times etc.
The GOC asked the CO's batman to be blindfolded and was handed a G3 Rifle. batman was then asked to dis-assemble and then assemble the G-3 while blindfolded. Everybody thought CO's career is at stake now. The batman did the job efficiently.


Artillery:
During my childhood, in one of my own visits to an M-109 equipped Artillery SP unit, i sat and was driven around in an M-109. The warning signs and instruction signs inside the M-109 were in english. All the crew could read and understand them. Later i went through the manuals, there were 6 or 8 editions, all in english and the crew were well versed in them which i got to know that they went through the Howitzer course or something like that.


Signals:
My very own, lol I sat in lab as a cadet and a Signals soldier was working on a computer next to me. Not only was he installing C++ on corrupted machines but he also knew the programming of C++. Further more he was well versed in other programs like MATLAB also.

Engineers:
During my course i had to study Surveying and levelling on a theodolite, Wild T-2 (was the name i think). I was given extra tuition as privilege by a soldier of Engineers Corps summoned by my father. Just a plain soldier. He taught me the basics, all in english, not a word in urdu.

What more do you want from soldiers of Pakistan Army?

Manuals are in english, training classes are in english. Training is never ending, there are many many training institutions in Pakistan Army. Soldiers give presentations, yes most of them are in urdu but yes they understand english. I cant list all institutions here, you can see them on website.

Air Defence soldiers man very technical and hi-tech equipment. If you have been inside a T-59 or any other MBT, the instructions are in English, Armoured Corps Soldiers can read those and understand them.

Equipment is upgraded, new is bought sometimes. How can illiterate soldiers operate them? And its the soldiers who operate most of the equipment, an officer makes decisions and gives orders

 

[Irfan Baloch]

A

Opinion gents. @Signalian @Irfan Baloch @DESERT FIGHTER @Ulla

Aamir has given a good brief and I got nothing to add any further
the only other force in the west that comes closer to US is the British army and I have had long conversations with a British Sargent, his comprehension and grasp on international politics, military warfare and his exposure across the globe made him no less than if not more than any commissioned officer of the third word countries like Pakistan. he is very blunt and never pulls any punches so people here might not stomach his postings. he did appreciate me and my pov re Pakistan , Afghanistan and india thats about it.

the amount of efforts and resources these first world armies spend at their armies are bound to give very good results.

 

[django]

You are notorious for dragging me into topics which i quietly ignore while i have fun with one liners in flaming topics as well as messing around in members section...........

You are further Legendary in extracting from me what i try to completely avoid ...

i did not want a dispute, but i do not agree with that member's opinion.

Neither did I in fact I was astonished by it, we are a nation of immensely talented folk.

Now JLA is for PA, im not sure if PN has the same facility to train their troops at the same level of Army, although it has been seen that Army provides facility for SSG (N) and Marines to some extent in Army institutions.

I bloody well hope so, I know their are budgetary constraints but the their is nothing like making a soldier the best version of himself.

urthermore, lets talk about average grunt, average soldier.
What do you think a soldier achieves in his 16-18 years of service. Just patrolling with gun on shoulder from point A to point B? Nowadays soldiers are FA pass usually, matric pass ar very rare.
There are courses in every soldiers life. Trade course, weapons course, specialised courses etc. He is selected for courses if he doesn't volunteer and some courses are mandatory.

That is what surprised me about that individuals comments, their is so much competition from lads with FSc/FA etc that their are more than enough suitable applicants who are more than capable of becoming elite effective soldiers on the modern battlefield.

The CO did everything to impress the GOC but Maj General sahab was a notorious fellow like yourself.

Damn I am in good company.

Infantry:
A long time back when batmans were a wonderful thing in the Army, a certain GOC decided to inspect an R&S unit of his Infantry Division, it was 21st Punjab i think. The CO did everything to impress the GOC but Maj General sahab was a notorious fellow like yourself. GOC summoned the Batman of the CO. Now the batman's job was cooking meals, taking laundry for ironing, doing chores of the house, accompanying sweeper during the cleaning times etc.
The GOC asked the CO's batman to be blindfolded and was handed a G3 Rifle. batman was then asked to dis-assemble and then assemble the G-3 while blindfolded. Everybody thought CO's career is at stake now. The batman did the job efficiently.


Artillery:
During my childhood, in one of my own visits to an M-109 equipped Artillery SP unit, i sat and was driven around in an M-109. The warning signs and instruction signs inside the M-109 were in english. All the crew could read and understand them. Later i went through the manuals, there were 6 or 8 editions, all in english and the crew were well versed in them which i got to know that they went through the Howitzer course or something like that.


Signals:
My very own, lol I sat in lab as a cadet and a Signals soldier was working on a computer next to me. Not only was he installing C++ on corrupted machines but he also knew the programming of C++. Further more he was well versed in other programs like MATLAB also.

Engineers:
During my course i had to study Surveying and levelling on a theodolite, Wild T-2 (was the name i think). I was given extra tuition as privilege by a soldier of Engineers Corps summoned by my father. Just a plain soldier. He taught me the basics, all in english, not a word in urdu.

What more do you want from soldiers of Pakistan Army?

Manuals are in english, training classes are in english. Training is never ending, there are many many training institutions in Pakistan Army. Soldiers give presentations, yes most of them are in urdu but yes they understand english. I cant list all institutions here, you can see them on website.

Air Defence soldiers man very technical and hi-tech equipment. If you have been inside a T-59 or any other MBT, the instructions are in English, Armoured Corps Soldiers can read those and understand them.

Equipment is upgraded, new is bought sometimes. How can illiterate soldiers operate them? And its the soldiers who operate most of the equipment, an officer makes decisions and gives orders

Excellent points you have made from your own personal experiences, folk that are programming C++ clearly have aptitude/talent as did the Pak army instructors who were trained by Yanks during the Afghan/Russian war on the effective use of stingers, by the time the Pak army instructors had completed their training they had achieved a astonishing success rate of 95%, higher than their US counterparts, this according to Brig Mohammad Yousaf (Bear Trap), even the Yanks were taken aback by this.

What more do you want from soldiers of Pakistan Army?

NOTHING-They are already giving 110% and more.Kudos Signalian and great to read about your interactions with ordinary Pak personnel from the various branches, it is very reassuring indeed though not for any potential adversary.Kudos Bro

Actually if someone believes a whole nation being innately superior or inferior...he is racist ignorant mentally sick person. Education, culture, and systems play a pivotal role. South Korea used to be quite underdeveloped and were considered low-IQed but as they have progressed, prospered and developed, they are equal to any developed western nation, same goes for China, Singapore and Japan.. If Pakistan improves its education system and promotes scientific culture, it will be transformed into a develop country and same people with same genetic make up will be considered geniuses...

Signalian bhai has given a fine rebuttal in regards to that individuals comments and I totally concur with your points.Kuds bro