Pakistan Navy announces indigenous air defense missile project, selects LY-80N for new frigates

[BHarwana]

A lot can be determined just by the size of the exhaust plume. The final portion of the video gives an indication of terminal velocity at time of impact. Combine this with an expert's knowledge of what a cruise missile can achieve based on current technology, and a lot can be deduced.

Where the Aussie expert has failed is in considering the possibility Harbah could be carrying a tactical nuke. Plus, no statement has been given on radar evasion features. Finally, the success depends on mission planning.

That said, maybe they are considering GPS jamming a key vulnerability due to which Indians don't need to be worried.

And a very important thing about Australia. Back circa 2013-14 an interview was published of an incoming Australian naval chief in which he was asked what he sees as being the biggest problem. His reply was Pakistan, NOT China and NOT North Korea. Australia has asked for joint naval exercises with India and if Armageddon breaks out, Pakistan should consider the powerful Australian Navy as an adversary.

A lot can be determined but not a lot as well. Cruise missiles use terrain mapping to achieve it's target but being at sea terrain mapping is not a possibility because on sea there are no distinct features which cruise missiles use but that being said it does not in any way means that Harbah is not using terrain mapping because Harbah is capable of land attack as well. Now the predicted range of Harbah is 700 km so that means the missile is some how able to target beyond visual range so that means the target designation is not done by RADAR seeking or IR seeking system. All we can determine is what is the propulsion system of the missile but target acquiring of this missile cannot be determined as the missile is something totally new in the navigation field. 700 km range means missile is based on a New tech of target acquiring it has some thing advance.

 

[ziaulislam]

useless self contradicting article

for one i thought army, airforce navy realized about the urgent need for medium range mass produced SAM that should carter huge requirement for all three arms but i was a fool..lol

 

[Tank131]

A few contradictory points, such as is PN locally building LY-80N and calling it indigenous or is it acquiring LY-80N AND has an indigenous project going? It also says that there are no plans to replace FM90 but that it could be replaced in the near future by a smaller short range missile.

Then there a are a few questions it raises. While it's great that PN finally relized its a sitting duck against aerial attacks, it supposedly selected LY-80N...is the the HQ-16A (40km) or the longer ranged HQ-16B? Also, why not replace the FM-90? Its an average missile of which only 8 can be carried. If a vls system is not doable, why not replace it with a 21 or 27 cell FL-3000N (which reportedly has only 9 km range but i have seen other places report 12km (which itself is only 3km shy of fm- 90)).

Furthermore, most people said that Harbah was either a modified Babur or C-602 after the picture came out. Their lookand dimensions are similar enough that is may be difficult to tell.

 

[khansaheeb]

lol an Australian expert? My point is how can people asses any info about Harbah missile when the there is no info released so far, the estimate of range is done due to Harbah link with the Babur family but if you look that the video released by Navy there is only booster phase and interception Phase portion of the test is released which means that the inflight mode of Harbah has not been released so that clearly tells that in flight mode of Harbah is different from Babur family. Again when the Harbah intercepts the sea based target the speed of intercept is very higher than what Babur family missiles uses to approach the target. So Harbah is myth for now until more info is available.

Apparently Harbah has stealth capability (stealth contouring and radar absorbing material) so wouldn't be detectable by Indian radar systems. It has multiple target detection , location and targeting technologies so Indian Navy won't stand a chance.

 

[alimobin memon]

A few contradictory points, such as is PN locally building LY-80N and calling it indigenous or is it acquiring LY-80N AND has an indigenous project going? It also says that there are no plans to replace FM90 but that it could be replaced in the near future by a smaller short range missile.

Then there a are a few questions it raises. While it's great that PN finally relized its a sitting duck against aerial attacks, it supposedly selected LY-80N...is the the HQ-16A (40km) or the longer ranged HQ-16B? Also, why not replace the FM-90? Its an average missile of which only 8 can be carried. If a vls system is not doable, why not replace it with a 21 or 27 cell FL-3000N (which reportedly has only 9 km range but i have seen other places report 12km (which itself is only 3km shy of fm- 90)).

Furthermore, most people said that Harbah was either a modified Babur or C-602 after the picture came out. Their lookand dimensions are similar enough that is may be difficult to tell.

Fl3000N is point defense FM 90 has better guidance to attack aircrafts.

 

[ARMalik]

How many anti ship missiles out there have 700 km plus range??
Launched from a ship size of a fishing boat... that too 700 km away.... and each carrying 6 out these missiles... would enemy even know they are under attack????
And how to stop some thing u don't know exists

Excellent questions. These so called 'experts' simply read good forums like Defence.com, and then put their own invented layer of 'Bull Shi.t' on top of it and become "expert analysts". What a joke.

I said in another post:

So as the saying goes, in October 2015 somewhere in Caspian Sea, Russia ships fired Kalibr cruise missiles which flew all the way and hit targets in Syria. So here is the big deal - these ships were led by Gepard-class frigate Dagestan 1900 tons, the rest of the fleet consisted of tiny 950-ton Buyan-M-class corvettes. All fired Kalibr missiles. So these tiny corvettes had the capability of firing missiles which are usually on MUCH LARGER ships. In fact only the Arleigh Burke-class destroyers and Ticonderoga-class missile cruisers of the USN have this capability of firing long range tomohawks.

So Russia demonstrated a new naval warfare philosophy. Chinese seem to agree.

And now it looks like Pakistan Navy agrees as well. Imagine dozens of Corvettes and smaller 900 tons ships carrying long range strike missiles with nuclear capability taking out the entire Carrier Fleet?

Good work PN.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...-himmat-pakistan.536947/page-10#post-10141247

 

[Gryphon]

Excellent questions. These so called 'experts' simply read good forums like Defence.com, and then put their own invented layer of 'Bull Shi.t' on top of it and become "expert analysts". What a joke.

I said in another post:



https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...-himmat-pakistan.536947/page-10#post-10141247

The Russian's fired LACM's which don't require the target to be continuosly tracked.

Fl3000N is point defense FM 90 has better guidance to attack aircrafts.

FM-90N neither has the range nor the altitude to 'attack' aircraft.
Enemy helicopters can target the ship with anti-ship missiles (like AM39 Exocet) from stand-off ranges.

One can hope those RAM type weapons will intercept incoming anti-ship missiles.

 

[Mrc]

The Russian's fired LACM's which don't require the target to be continuosly tracked.

Rest assured ... if they build a missile for that purpose... they would have found a comfortable way to track and acquire the target

 

[alimobin memon]

The Russian's fired LACM's which don't require the target to be continuosly tracked.



FM-90N neither has the range nor the altitude to 'attack' aircraft.
Enemy helicopters can target the ship with anti-ship missiles (like AM39 Exocet) from stand-off ranges.

One can hope those RAM type weapons will intercept incoming anti-ship missiles.

"FM-90N neither has the range nor the altitude to 'attack' aircraft." an overstatement compared to FM 90 which has better range, guidance and kill probability.
Type 730 CIWS fulfills the role PDMS and is better IMHO cause it can also be used to attack different type of targets.

 

[HRK]

The question is, how will these small boats find targets to shoot at 700kms away in open ocean?

one of the option to utilize its full range for Anti-Ship role is to use air & Space base ISR assets ...
but on practical grounds 700 KM range will be more helpful in Land attack role from sea ...

 

[Falcon26]

A lot can be determined just by the size of the exhaust plume. The final portion of the video gives an indication of terminal velocity at time of impact. Combine this with an expert's knowledge of what a cruise missile can achieve based on current technology, and a lot can be deduced.

Where the Aussie expert has failed is in considering the possibility Harbah could be carrying a tactical nuke. Plus, no statement has been given on radar evasion features. Finally, the success depends on mission planning.

That said, maybe they are considering GPS jamming a key vulnerability due to which Indians don't need to be worried.

And a very important thing about Australia. Back circa 2013-14 an interview was published of an incoming Australian naval chief in which he was asked what he sees as being the biggest problem. His reply was Pakistan, NOT China and NOT North Korea. Australia has asked for joint naval exercises with India and if Armageddon breaks out, Pakistan should consider the powerful Australian Navy as an adversary.

Do you have the link for the interview?

 

[CriticalThought]

A lot can be determined but not a lot as well. Cruise missiles use terrain mapping to achieve it's target but being at sea terrain mapping is not a possibility because on sea there are no distinct features which cruise missiles use but that being said it does not in any way means that Harbah is not using terrain mapping because Harbah is capable of land attack as well. Now the predicted range of Harbah is 700 km so that means the missile is some how able to target beyond visual range so that means the target designation is not done by RADAR seeking or IR seeking system. All we can determine is what is the propulsion system of the missile but target acquiring of this missile cannot be determined as the missile is something totally new in the navigation field. 700 km range means missile is based on a New tech of target acquiring it has some thing advance.

There are only a limited set of technologies that enable OHT. GPS, preprogrammed waypoints using INS, guidance by some other asset in network centric mode. That's about it. People know what Pakistan has access to do they can make a guesstimate.

Do you have the link for the interview?

Nopes.

 

[BHarwana]

There are only a limited set of technologies that enable OHT. GPS, preprogrammed waypoints using INS, guidance by some other asset in network centric mode. That's about it. People know what Pakistan has access to do they can make a guesstimate.

I was reading the Russian assessment on the missile and Russians concluded that this was a really difficult technology to master such long range accuracy over sea and they concluded that either the missile was using multiple target acquisition systems or an entirely new technology.

 

[CriticalThought]

I was reading the Russian assessment on the missile and Russians concluded that this was a really difficult technology to master such long range accuracy over sea and they concluded that either the missile was using multiple target acquisition systems or an entirely new technology.

I don't disagree that it's a very complex piece of technology. I am trying to balance between the two extreme views. Every viewpoint has some merit to it. But we also need to understand that Western analysts have a vast history of under-appreciating our achievements. Nuclear program bring the biggest example.

Can u give me a link to the Russian site?

 

[Gryphon]

"FM-90N neither has the range nor the altitude to 'attack' aircraft." an overstatement compared to FM 90 which has better range, guidance and kill probability.
Type 730 CIWS fulfills the role PDMS and is better IMHO cause it can also be used to attack different type of targets.

On the F-22P, FM-90N is nothing more than a PDMS. 15 km range and just 8 missiles in the launcher.

A 24 cell FL-3000N launcher (despite its smaller range: 6km for supersonic and 9km for subsonic targets) is a better option (with its fire-and-forget IIR guidance).