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Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

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Jun 11, 2016 Bilal Khan -
MILGEM Part 2: What will Pakistan gain from the MILGEM?


This article will evaluate the Ada-class/MILGEM on its own merits. This will not be a comparative study (between the Ada-class and Zulfiqar-class, for example) – this will be reserved for part-three. Part-one provided an overview of the Pakistan Navy’s requirements.

The Ada-class corvette is a part of the MILGEM, Turkey’s national warship program. The MILGEM program was started around the time Turkey had decided to principally source its defence needs domestically. The first component of the MILGEM program was the Ada-class corvette.

The ship displaces at 2300 tons and is powered by a combined diesel and gas (CODAG) propulsion system. In practice, the ship would use its diesel engines while cruising, and when in need for high-speed movement, switch-on its gas turbine. The Ada-class corvette has a range of 6500km at 15 knots, and an endurance of three weeks with auxiliary support (and ten days without). The ship can operate in sea state 5 and (to a lesser extent) sea state 6 conditions. Sea state refers to the condition of a large body of water, such as an area in the sea. At Sea State 5 and 6, the Ada-class corvette can operate in rough conditions, i.e. with waves reaching up to six metres in height.

The Ada-class corvette uses a steel hull with a composite superstructure (i.e. the parts atop of the hull). From the design phase, focus was kept on reducing the radar cross-section (RCS) as well as infrared (IR), acoustic, magnetic and hydrodynamic signatures of the ship. It also has a flight deck and hangar for one medium utility helicopter (such as the S-70 Black Hawk).

There is nothing inherently wrong with the Ada-class in as far as the physical parameters of the ship (i.e. the hull and propulsion systems) are concerned. If the Pakistan Navy has a need for a capable surface platform, the Ada-class would be among the ships that could meet those needs. However, the Navy is unlikely to acquire the Ada-class as simply an offshore patrol vessel (OPV) for peacetime patrol and policing tasks, it would need a multi-mission platform capable of substantively contributing to wartime defence needs. In other words, the real value – in terms of capability and cost – of this ship would be determined when one factors in the on-board sensors, electronics and weapon systems, particularly its anti-air warfare (AAW) systems.

The Ada-class corvette in service with the Turkish Navy uses a mix of indigenous and imported subsystems and weapons. An excellent layout of the Ada-class’ subsystems and weapons can be viewed here. The MILGEM Batch-II (or MILGEM-G) is a slightly longer version of the Ada (by 10 metres), but has room for 16 vertical launch system (VLS) cells. This is in lieu of the TF-100 light frigate program, which was more ambitious in its scope. The MILGEM-G was likely chosen on the basis of being less complex and costly.

Based on what is shown, a number of the vital sensors are of foreign origin, such as the Thales SMART-S Mk2 air surveillance radar and Thales Sting EO Mk2 fire control radar and electro-optical tracking system, among others. While acquiring the Turkish subsystems, such as the Aselsan ALPER low probability of intercept (LPI) radar, should not be a problem, some measure of third party contact will likely be required in order to source a radar suitable for AAW.

Due to likely vendor sensitivities, be it from Turkey or any of the other Western suppliers involved in the MILGEM (or MILGEM-G), the only outcome possible for Pakistan is to procure a Western radar. Its options could include Leonardo-Finmeccanica, Saab or even Aselsan, provided Aselsan could acquire re-export licenses for the SMART-S Mk2 from Thales Nederland.

The anti-ship warfare (AShW) and anti-submarine warfare (ASW) weapon systems will have to come from Western vendors as well. The Turkish Navy’s Ada-class corvettes are equipped with Harpoon Block-II anti-ship missiles (AShM) and Mk46 ASW torpedoes. Pakistan already operates both of these munitions on a number of its naval platforms, acquiring them should not necessarily be a problem. In the case that it is, Pakistan could potentially acquire alternatives from MBDA Italy. A less likely option would be Saab and its RBS-15 AShM and Lightweight Torpedo (LWT), but at this stage it is unclear to what extent Saab would be willing to release offensive hardware to Pakistan, especially with its current overtures to India.

In terms of AAW, the Ada-class is currently protected by a point-defence missile system (PDMS) in the form of the Raytheon RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM). The RAM is basically a close-in weapons system (CIWS) meant for protecting a surface warship from incoming AShM and nearby aircraft. There is nothing inherently contentious in exporting the RAM to Pakistan, but if that avenue is closed, already exported CIWS solutions – such as the Phalanx – could be considered.

In addition, such a warship ought to have short to medium-range AAW capability, which is afforded through vertical launch systems (VLS). Commonly used systems include the MBDA Aster-15 and Raytheon Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (ESSM). The latter will be used on the Turkish Navy’s MILGEM-Gs. If Pakistan is unable to acquire the ESSM, it could consider MBDA or Denel Dynamics. MBDA UK could be approached for the Common Anti-Air Modular Missile (CAMM), but it will be an expensive and potentially troublesome from regulatory and long-term support standpoints.

There may be more flexibility in that Pakistan could talk to Denel Dynamics in South Africa, which does have experience integrating its Umkhonto with the Thales SMART-S radar (and should not have problems with Saab if Pakistan were to acquire a Giraffe radar). Ideally, the Umkhonto-EIR – with a range of 25-35km – would be available in time for Pakistan to use on the MILGEM (ideally MILGEM-G) and other ships.

One might have noticed a major underlying point in the article – the MILGEM is not the most cost-flexible system. Fortunately, the climb from the current Ada-class to the VLS-equipped MILGEM-G is relatively marginal, so the added cost of getting a ship better suited for AAW is not significant (cannot necessarily say the same about the ship in general).

This is going to be a significant investment for the Navy, and it could truly impact its acquisition route moving forward. Like any other complex system, there is an investment required in raising the base to operate the corvette; training personnel, sourcing and/or producing parts, domestic maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) capacity, etc. In fact, these vessels will likely be built in Pakistan, hence there is also an industrial input to be accounted for as well.

Thinking back to the article about Pakistan’s potential frigate options, the acquisition of the MILGEM (or MILGEM-G) would likely close any other frigate outcome. Pakistan’s limited fiscal capacity and the costs involved in committing to a comparatively costly platform means that Pakistan will likely (and would be advised to) stick with the MILGEM platform for its mainstay needs.

Part-three will offer a comparative analysis of the MILGEM to other potential options, but to emphasize a key point should Pakistan decide to choose the MILGEM – Pakistan will stick with the MILGEM. While a sufficiently capable design, its value as a multi-mission combatant will depend on the subsystems Pakistan succeeds in sourcing. The better the radars, sensors, combat management systems, and weapon systems, the superior the overall system. For Pakistan, intricately learning about the MILGEM design, and in time, becoming capable of integrating diverse electronics and weapons suites will be vital, so as to draw the full value of the acquisition.


http://quwa.org/2016/06/11/part-2-will-pakistan-gain-milgem/


So Pakistan has to make a choice,either MILGEM with all the strings attached or a Chinese equivelant which would have no strings attached at all?
The choice should be Obvious?

@Blue Marlin ,there is something wrong with the quoting system,thats why i tagged you.
You should read the article i answered to,many subsystems come from western sources,its not about Turkish subsystems.
 
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So Pakistan has to make a choice,either MILGEM with all the strings attached or a Chinese equivelant which would have no strings attached at all?
The choice should be Obvious?

@Blue Marlin ,there is something wrong with the quoting system,thats why i tagged you.
You should read the article i answered to,many subsystems come from western sources,its not about Turkish subsystems.
no i deleted my post it did not make sense
 
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What the Article is trying to tell is that Pakistan has many systems that it is operating on the ADA Class Corvettes hence it would not be a problem. However there are alternates available that can replace these systems if there are any sanctions. Turkish systems might be allowed for exports even though they would incorporate technologies of the west, as it would not be seen as a complete system but some elements.

@T-123456 Chinese systems would be more attractive but might push Pakistan to problems on the long run. It is not wise to keep all your eggs in one basket.
 
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I wonder how difficult it would be to integrate chinese weapons onto MILGEM. The chinese have already used Thales Smart-S mk2 alomg with their own Type 364 radar on C28A for algeria so i see no reason PN couldnt get Umkhonto amd replace RAM with FL-3000N. That being said the 16 cell vls will be am issue. It is simply not enough weaponry for a true multi purpose frigate. Not unless u have quad packable missile. That beimg said, i dont see ESSM comimg to Pakistan otherwise PN would have likely equipped Alamghir with them already. An alternative like CAMM should be sought or if Umkhonto is quad packable like some have suggested (although i havent found much evidence to that effect) it would be worth it. There are also rumors that MILGEM-G Could also filed up to 32 cells.

But with 16 cell vls amd 24 cell fl3000n, i suppose PN cpuld do worse.
 
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I wonder how difficult it would be to integrate chinese weapons onto MILGEM. The chinese have already used Thales Smart-S mk2 alomg with their own Type 364 radar on C28A for algeria so i see no reason PN couldnt get Umkhonto amd replace RAM with FL-3000N. That being said the 16 cell vls will be am issue. It is simply not enough weaponry for a true multi purpose frigate. Not unless u have quad packable missile. That beimg said, i dont see ESSM comimg to Pakistan otherwise PN would have likely equipped Alamghir with them already. An alternative like CAMM should be sought or if Umkhonto is quad packable like some have suggested (although i havent found much evidence to that effect) it would be worth it. There are also rumors that MILGEM-G Could also filed up to 32 cells.

But with 16 cell vls amd 24 cell fl3000n, i suppose PN cpuld do worse.
The PN would be wise to go for the MiLGEM-G from the onset, especially when it isn't that much of a leap from the MILGEM anyways. The key will be having the capacity to domestically integrate subsystems from various origins. From what I am seeing, the likes of Saab, Thales, Denel, Raytheon, etc don't mind working with one another, but may have a problem working with the Chinese. Now, Algeria did manage to pair the SMART S Mk2 radar to its C28s, but I believe (may be wrong) this work was done in Algeria. Plus, I'm not sure to what extent the radar is vital for the C28's AShM and SAM - did they need to do a lot of cross subsystem integration?
 
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The PN would be wise to go for the MiLGEM-G from the onset, especially when it isn't that much of a leap from the MILGEM anyways. The key will be having the capacity to domestically integrate subsystems from various origins. From what I am seeing, the likes of Saab, Thales, Denel, Raytheon, etc don't mind working with one another, but may have a problem working with the Chinese. Now, Algeria did manage to pair the SMART S Mk2 radar to its C28s, but I believe (may be wrong) this work was done in Algeria. Plus, I'm not sure to what extent the radar is vital for the C28's AShM and SAM - did they need to do a lot of cross subsystem integration?
A good CMS will be adaptable to and work with a variety of sensors. Chinese CMS are to a large extent based on French Tavitac IIRC

Smarta S mk2 antenna was installed while in China (no way of telling about the internal components)

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C284.jpg
 
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A good CMS will be adaptable to and work with a variety of sensors. Chinese CMS are to a large extent based on French Tavitac IIRC

Smarta S mk2 antenna was installed while in China (no way of telling about the internal components)

20150212082806296.jpg


C284.jpg
All things considered, it is actually very intriguing as to why Pakistan didn't (or isn't) continuing with the F-22P line. It could have used the C28A as a basis and - from the initial design level - incorporate at least 16 VLS cells for the Umkhonto EIR (25-35km range). With the Thales SMART-S Mk2, all could have been fine. The expertise to produce the ship was already present in KSEW with the F-22P.
 
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Look At This Beauty.....Just imagine Pakistani flag on its tail rather than that of Turkey...!!!:yahoo::enjoy:
 
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All things considered, it is actually very intriguing as to why Pakistan didn't (or isn't) continuing with the F-22P line. It could have used the C28A as a basis and - from the initial design level - incorporate at least 16 VLS cells for the Umkhonto EIR (25-35km range). With the Thales SMART-S Mk2, all could have been fine. The expertise to produce the ship was already present in KSEW with the F-22P.
I agree
 
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All things considered, it is actually very intriguing as to why Pakistan didn't (or isn't) continuing with the F-22P line. It could have used the C28A as a basis and - from the initial design level - incorporate at least 16 VLS cells for the Umkhonto EIR (25-35km range). With the Thales SMART-S Mk2, all could have been fine. The expertise to produce the ship was already present in KSEW with the F-22P.
This would have been a much needed replacement plan for the old ships of PN. Still PN could opt for these 2 made in Pakistan and 2 in China, two ships per year can be added.
 
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All things considered, it is actually very intriguing as to why Pakistan didn't (or isn't) continuing with the F-22P line. It could have used the C28A as a basis and - from the initial design level - incorporate at least 16 VLS cells for the Umkhonto EIR (25-35km range). With the Thales SMART-S Mk2, all could have been fine. The expertise to produce the ship was already present in KSEW with the F-22P.

Well lets remember that these are likely preliminary talks and nothing is confirmed. That being said my suspicion is that it has to do with 3 things...
1. Automation of MILGEM is far superior to that of F22p or C28A. The MILGEM complement of 93 vs 170 for F22p and likely somewhere in the middle closer to 170 for c28a means there is a cost benefit to the MILGEM.

2. With MILGEM G it was designed for the vls whereas the C28A isnt. I too am a proponent of mods C28A with respect to potential, but the entire weight distribution changes in a ship when removing the deck and FM90 launcher and replacimg it with a VLS unit. Actually thats in of the reasons the OHPs retained the mk 13 launcher mechanisms, just had the above deck arms removed. It affects the ships balance. It may have been more costly to redesign a ship that was never meant to have a vls, to now suddenly have one. In otherwords despite it beimg more expensive than F-22p and likely C28A, it may have been cheaper than a redesigned one with VLS, and more off the shelf design so to speak.

3. Pakistan wants a diverse supply group and Turkey is seen likely as reliable (in fact in some cases i could see that Turkey in the future may be the closest ally of Pakistan given that Chinese and Pakistani goals may mot always align but Turkish Pakistani goals are more likely to). That is not to say that China is likely to be replaced any time soon, but one could see scenarios of various make ups that could see splitting on various fronts between china and pakistan (most likely due to whoever is in power in Pakistan (we saw some mistrust of the Zardari govt)). This means Pakistan must have a diverse set of suppliers. I think even if all things were equal, id still go with a Turkish option in ships or helicopter gunships just for that reason. Same goes for South Africa for weaponry and Italy for avionics. This will lead to a diversification in sources of technology which will, in the long run lead to a more uniquely Pakistani defense technology brand.
 
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A good CMS will be adaptable to and work with a variety of sensors. Chinese CMS are to a large extent based on French Tavitac IIRC

Smarta S mk2 antenna was installed while in China (no way of telling about the internal components)

20150212082806296.jpg


C284.jpg
indeed look at the naresuan frigate it incorprates swedish radars with a american weapons with chinese and americain equipment. it also worth mentioning that its dirived from the type 053 same as the f22p coincidently its about the same size as the f22p
422-thai-xin_2504062007024982697118.jpg


it was recently upgraded with an 8 cell mk41 vls
ESSM_1.jpg
 
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indeed look at the naresuan frigate it incorprates swedish radars with a american weapons with chinese and americain equipment. it also worth mentioning that its dirived from the type 053 same as the f22p coincidently its about the same size as the f22p

it was recently upgraded with an 8 cell mk41 vls

That was specifically designed for receiving Mk41 (space and weight reserved). It just to the Thai navy a very long time to finally fund and fit it.

Naresuan was referred to as F25T, back in the day when ordered. You also had a frigate being offered called F16U

z37%7EF25.jpg


F16U: (CSIC) first revealed its F16U export frigate design in 2000,
82d17b956e129e15.jpg


These were export oriented products. I can only speculate as to what country the U would indicate.
 
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All things considered, it is actually very intriguing as to why Pakistan didn't (or isn't) continuing with the F-22P line. It could have used the C28A as a basis and - from the initial design level - incorporate at least 16 VLS cells for the Umkhonto EIR (25-35km range). With the Thales SMART-S Mk2, all could have been fine. The expertise to produce the ship was already present in KSEW with the F-22P.


Hi,

That is my concern as well--we asked for TOT---we got the French submarine Agosta 90----so now we have the ability to build french subs---we went ahead looking for the german subs---and what a drama it was---and we ended up with china.

So what happened to that TOT---, if you don't keep working on new projects---you forget what you learnt.

Same with the F22 frigate---we asked for TOT---we got it---now we are chasing the Turks for TOT----.

So---are we watching a TOT drama being played over here?
 
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