Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[Advocate Pakistan]

DK-9C/PL-9C is 2.9m. HQ10/TY-90 is about 2m.

DK-9C could be. But still, it's range is too less to be put into a VLS. For that range they can utilize FL3000N.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) wasn't the upcoming Chinese Hangor replacing the older Hangor (Daphne), I guess.
The Turkish submarine could replace the Agosta 70s (provided that the Turkish Navy inducts it first) while the 90Bs are still fairly new and modern.
I am sensing, major platforms/ systems being acquired from three different vendors (if money/ politics allows), two at the very least.

 

[ziya]

Milgem can manage 3 attack at the same time from different directon according to drills made by turkish navy,but she can not manage 6 subsonic antiship missiles from different directions at the same time by using 21cell RAM system block 1but without considering elecronic war and caff flare counter meassures,according to theoric analysis.So RAM block II or otomelare super rapid 76mm gun can give extra safety.
We will have naval version of 35mm korkut system but needs more space in front of the ship and extra weight problems.So to improve survival of the ship,without design changes 1.Get 76 mm burst ammo with super rapid model of oto melera 2.forget 76 mm gun replace 35mm twin barrel korkut naval version and get anti ship missile with land attack capability 3.Accept there is no ship that can not sink

 

[cabatli_53]

So, that means 2.4 Ada and 1.6 Modified Ada?
Or do you mean 60/40 odds it being Ada (instead of Mod-Ada). 60% chance of Ada?

Wouldn't Agosta-70 need replacing first?

I mean The deal will be about either Modified Milgem with VLS (%40 chance) or Ada class corvette (%60 chance) based on the latest official announcements. SSM gave a written text about deal introducing ADA class corvette for Pakistan. I really expect Pakistan variant of Milgem with VLS but Noone have an idea what Pakistani power projection and Naval procurement concept requires so We will wait to see the final steps until 30 June before construction began.

 

[Penguin]

Wont they be replaced by Chinese subs?

They are replaced at the end of their service life. I would think the 8 Chinese sub are mainly fleet expansion.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Give me another 12 months of this and I'll learn how to read Turkish Lol
.

And, write too!!!!

 

[Penguin]

That will depend on whether the Agosta 70s are replaced by Hangors.

The 8 new subs don't just 'replace' the 2 Agosta-70s. This is a clear case of fleet expansion:

PNS Hashmat (135) and PNS Hurmat (136) date from 1978–80. They were modified in the mid 80’s to fire Harpoon SSM’s. They are now approaching 40 years (which is quit old) i.e. end of service life.

Much newer are the three Agosta 90B SSk’s. – PNS Khalid (137), Saad (138) (AIP) and Hamza (139) commissioned in 1999, 2003 and 2008 respectively. These boats are armed with the Exocet SM 39 SSM and are being modified to also fire the Harpoon SSM. The latter boat came fitted with AIP, In addition, the first two of the three boats are being retro-fitted with the 200Kw MESMA AIP, which will quadruple dived endurance at 4 Kt. The first pair are now about 20 years old and should at least last another 10 years, untill 2029, 2033 and 2038, respectively.

The Pakistan government has approved the purchase of eight Submarines at an estimated cost of $5 billion. The deal is confirmed and according to sources the construction process has begun. According to MoDP Pakistan four submarines will be constructed at KSEW under ToT while the remaining four will be built in China.The sub construction work will start simultaneous at both contries and will be provided from 2022 to 2028.

The oldest Agosta-90 will be 23-29 during that period and the youngest 14-20. So, paying of the Agosta-90 will - at the earliest - start only after all new Chinese subs have been delivered. At which time new submarines would be required in order to maintain the increased number of subs for the future.

What are your thoughts on the ATMACA missile?

Kh-35 / 3M24

What can I say, it's a popular class of missile and hard to tell from the outside what the exact (quantitative and qualitative) performance differences are.

DK-9C could be. But still, it's range is too less to be put into a VLS. For that range they can utilize FL3000N.

FL3000N
Max Range: 6,000 meter (3.24 nautical mile)
Min Range: 500 meter (0.27 nautical mile)
http://www.deagel.com/Defensive-Weapons/FL-3000N_a002627002.aspx

If PL-9C has an A2A range of 22km, it's ground launch range could be around 15km
Max Range: 22,000 meter (11.9 nautical mile)
Min Range: 500 meter (0.27 nautical mile)
http://www.armyrecognition.com/chin...data_sheet_specifications_pictures_video.html
http://www.deagel.com/Defensive-Weapons/PL-9_a002626001.aspx
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL-9

plus:
heavier warhead
all round VLS coverage

 

[Advocate Pakistan]

The 8 new subs don't just 'replace' the 2 Agosta-70s. This is a clear case of fleet expansion:

PNS Hashmat (135) and PNS Hurmat (136) date from 1978–80. They were modified in the mid 80’s to fire Harpoon SSM’s. They are now approaching 40 years (which is quit old) i.e. end of service life.

Much newer are the three Agosta 90B SSk’s. – PNS Khalid (137), Saad (138) (AIP) and Hamza (139) commissioned in 1999, 2003 and 2008 respectively. These boats are armed with the Exocet SM 39 SSM and are being modified to also fire the Harpoon SSM. The latter boat came fitted with AIP, In addition, the first two of the three boats are being retro-fitted with the 200Kw MESMA AIP, which will quadruple dived endurance at 4 Kt. The first pair are now about 20 years old and should at least last another 10 years, untill 2029, 2033 and 2038, respectively.

The Pakistan government has approved the purchase of eight Submarines at an estimated cost of $5 billion. The deal is confirmed and according to sources the construction process has begun. According to MoDP Pakistan four submarines will be constructed at KSEW under ToT while the remaining four will be built in China.The sub construction work will start simultaneous at both contries and will be provided from 2022 to 2028.

The oldest Agosta-90 will be 23-29 during that period and the youngest 14-20. So, paying of the Agosta-90 will - at the earliest - start only after all new Chinese subs have been delivered. At which time new submarines would be required in order to maintain the increased number of subs for the future.

Kh-35 / 3M24

What can I say, it's a popular class of missile and hard to tell from the outside what the exact (quantitative and qualitative) performance differences are.


FL3000N
Max Range: 6,000 meter (3.24 nautical mile)
Min Range: 500 meter (0.27 nautical mile)
http://www.deagel.com/Defensive-Weapons/FL-3000N_a002627002.aspx

If PL-9C has an A2A range of 22km, it's ground launch range could be around 15km
Max Range: 22,000 meter (11.9 nautical mile)
Min Range: 500 meter (0.27 nautical mile)
http://www.armyrecognition.com/chin...data_sheet_specifications_pictures_video.html
http://www.deagel.com/Defensive-Weapons/PL-9_a002626001.aspx
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL-9

plus:
heavier warhead
all round VLS coverage

I have started to understand your point.
But one thing remains to be addressed. Are those wings/fins foldable. Because if not than it doesn't seem fit DK-9C in Chinese VLS at 85 cm in diameter, as a result, we are back to square one.
If the air launched range is 22 km than I would expect not more than half of that range in the Surface launched version. Air launched versions benefit alot in terms of release altitude, an advantage surface launched versions don't have.
However, let's agree that, these are for the 3.3 m VLS. I believe they are than for export and not for domestic use.
PLAN would like a surface launched range of 20+ Kilometres/ quad-packing on the smallest of their boats.
Just saw that we are getting into VLS, missiles and going away from the Corvettes this thread mentions. Hope no one tells us to find another thread for it.

 

[CHI RULES]

it was probably the cost, i bet adding SAM would have cost at least another 400 million on top of current 1B. this would double the amount of funding PN needs given even this 1B is nearly half funded by low interest Turkish loans.

unless PN is looking for separate three-four frigates with air defense from china, the ultimate requirement is atleast 12 ships i guess no VLS doesnt make sense

The contract is for only ships abt USD250Million each, the ammo and Us based gadgets are not included. These ships shall be armed by PN it self.

 

[Penguin]

I have started to understand your point.
But one thing remains to be addressed. Are those wings/fins foldable. Because if not than it doesn't seem fit DK-9C in Chinese VLS at 85 cm in diameter, as a result, we are back to square one.
If the air launched range is 22 km than I would expect not more than half of that range in the Surface launched version. Air launched versions benefit alot in terms of release altitude, an advantage surface launched versions don't have.
However, let's agree that, these are for the 3.3 m VLS. I believe they are than for export and not for domestic use.
PLAN would like a surface launched range of 20+ Kilometres/ quad-packing on the smallest of their boats.
Just saw that we are getting into VLS, missiles and going away from the Corvettes this thread mentions. Hope no one tells us to find another thread for it.

PL-9C SHORAD ground-to-air defense missile system
Length: 2.9 m;
Diameter: 0.157 m;
Wingspan: 0.65m
Range: 500 m - 22,000 m
The missile has a maximum effective range of 35 km and an altitude limit of 6.5 km.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/chin...data_sheet_specifications_pictures_video.html

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The contract is for only ships abt USD250Million each, the ammo and Us based gadgets are not included. These ships shall be armed by PN it self.

The $250 m is the overall cost of the program (per ship) - i.e. hulls, engines, sensors/electronics, training, logistics, infrastructure and weapons.

The 8 new subs don't just 'replace' the 2 Agosta-70s. This is a clear case of fleet expansion:

PNS Hashmat (135) and PNS Hurmat (136) date from 1978–80. They were modified in the mid 80’s to fire Harpoon SSM’s. They are now approaching 40 years (which is quit old) i.e. end of service life.

Much newer are the three Agosta 90B SSk’s. – PNS Khalid (137), Saad (138) (AIP) and Hamza (139) commissioned in 1999, 2003 and 2008 respectively. These boats are armed with the Exocet SM 39 SSM and are being modified to also fire the Harpoon SSM. The latter boat came fitted with AIP, In addition, the first two of the three boats are being retro-fitted with the 200Kw MESMA AIP, which will quadruple dived endurance at 4 Kt. The first pair are now about 20 years old and should at least last another 10 years, untill 2029, 2033 and 2038, respectively.

The Pakistan government has approved the purchase of eight Submarines at an estimated cost of $5 billion. The deal is confirmed and according to sources the construction process has begun. According to MoDP Pakistan four submarines will be constructed at KSEW under ToT while the remaining four will be built in China.The sub construction work will start simultaneous at both contries and will be provided from 2022 to 2028.

The oldest Agosta-90 will be 23-29 during that period and the youngest 14-20. So, paying of the Agosta-90 will - at the earliest - start only after all new Chinese subs have been delivered. At which time new submarines would be required in order to maintain the increased number of subs for the future.

I agree, but it was my impression that the Hangor SSPs are being sought to compensate for the shortfall from retiring the Daphne SSKs and to supplant the Agosta 70s. Yes, it is fleet expansion from 9 (i.e. 4 Daphne, 2 A70 & 3 A90) to 11 (3 A90 & 8 Hangor). I think they would aim for replacing the A90s by the early-to-mid 2040s.

 

[Gryphon]

The $250 m is the overall cost of the program (per ship) - i.e. hulls, engines, sensors/electronics, training, logistics, infrastructure and weapons.

USD 300 million is the actual price of each Ada corvette. Have you wondered what they removed which reduced cost by USD 50 million ?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

USD 300 million is the price of each Ada corvette. Have you wondered what have they removed which reduced cost by USD 50 million ?

It's probably a mix of factors - e.g. moving final assembly and integration to KSEW (could be cheaper), swapping out some of the European and American systems with Turkish (or cheaper Western equivalents), etc. In fact, some of the gear could be sourced from Pakistan itself - e.g. towed array sonar, radio terminals, etc.

 

[CHI RULES]

It's probably a mix of factors - e.g. moving final assembly and integration to KSEW (could be cheaper), swapping out some of the European and American systems with Turkish (or cheaper Western equivalents), etc. In fact, some of the gear could be sourced from Pakistan itself - e.g. towed array sonar, radio terminals, etc.

Sir. that's right the actual cost is Rs 300Million but certain systems i.e SAMS, ASHMs etc are not included in PN package. They will certainly cost separately.

 

[YeBeWarned]

USD 300 million is the actual price of each Ada corvette. Have you wondered what they removed which reduced cost by USD 50 million ?

Its better not be RAM launcher

 

[Gryphon]

They are replaced at the end of their service life. I would think the 8 Chinese sub are mainly fleet expansion.

Agosta 70's were refurbished some years ago and will be retired from combat duty when Chinese submarines enter service. However, PN will continue to use those for training.