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Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

Hisar-Manpad missile which has a range of 6km, altitude of 4km will be revealed in 2018-19. The integration of them to Naval platform under a Bora variant will also be an option for Naval projects and platforms.


Additions, Under the name of a new strategic R&D project called Marine Vehicle Propulsion System Development, It is schedules a strategy to have design/development and production capability of following equipment for naval assets:

Main Drive System (Min 4mW)
Fuel System (Min 60kW)
Hydrogen Generator (Reformer) Metal Hydride, Polymer, Carbon Nanotube
Advanced Lead Acid Battery
Alternative Technology Battery

http://www.ssm.gov.tr/anasayfa/hizli/duyurular/projeDuyurulari/Sayfalar/20170324_SAGA_DenizArac.aspx
 
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In terms of air defence configurations, I imagine the following could be possible:
  • Chinese PESA (or AESA?) radar + LY-80 MR-SAM
  • Saab Giraffe AMB + Umkhonto EIR
  • Thales SMART-S Mk2 + Umkhonto EIR or MBDA CAMM or MBDA Aster-15
  • Turkish AESA radar + Hisar-O or Umkhonto EIR or MBDA CAMM or Aster-15

Chinese radar + LY-80 is unlikely.

Umkhonto EIR is still in development.

Hisar-O (tested some months ago from a land-based VLS launcher) is expected to enter service in 2020. No naval version of Hisar-O is in sight for the next 5 years.

Turkish AESA ?

ASELSAN license produces Thales SMART-S Mk2 Naval 3-D Search Radar for use with Turkish MILGEM corvettes.
There were reports that Pakistan & Thales discussed an AD system at IDEAS 2016 (search radar ?).

It is likely that LF-2400 also uses the Mark 41 VLS (as Istanbul-class frigates). MBDA CAMM is plausible.

According to mbda-systems.com,

Sea Ceptor can operate from the SYLVER and Mk41 launchers using a quad-pack configuration to maximise packing density and for optimum installation on smaller ships. The Soft Vertical Launch technology reduces system weight and provides flexible installation. The weapon’s Command and Control system is designed to be integrated into new or existing naval combat systems.
 
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Hisar-Manpad missile which has a range of 6km, altitude of 4km will be revealed in 2018-19. The integration of them to Naval platform under a Bora variant will also be an option for Naval projects and platforms.
I was surprised to learn there IS a Hisar-Manpad (but: good for Turkey!). However, I did get the impression from the post below that a year ago is was still only a project rather than an operational manpad. So, the question is when this manpad could be available (2018?). Pakistan licence produces Chinese HM- and QW-series manpads under the ANZA brand. Possibly a Bora type launcher could accommodate those too.

12509200_1085759901447810_5906652316450698076_n.jpg


"Roketsan Hisar Manpad very low altitude air defense fuze project with ...

The first design visualization of the national defense shoulder air defense fuze, which continues its design and development work on the Hisar air defense fuze developed by the Roketsan company with national facilities.

While there is not much information about technology, it is stated that fuzein will be the world's most modern shoulder-fired air defense fuller, and its competitors will be Manpad air defense fighter like USA production Stinger and Russian production Igla, 9K333 Verba."
https://www.facebook.com/T.C.savunm...939095963226/1085759901447810/?type=3&theater

oEvjPR.png

piclink http://www.millisavunma.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/oEvjPR.png

"The "HISAR" air defense fuze system family, which continues to be developed by Aselsan and Roketsan.

HISAR Fulseri; Air defense defenses against military aircraft, harbors, facilities and units against air threats and against defensive and unmanned air vehicles which are aimed at fixed and rotating wing aircraft, cruising planes, airborne. COMMERCIAL FIRMS are designed in a modular structure in family integrity, compatible with different platform integrations, changing shot control and command control infrastructures."
http://www.millisavunma.com/tag/hisar-manpad/

pEgAVJ.jpg

Hisar MANPADS
Altitude: 4+ km
Range: 6+ km
Guidance: IR + UV or IIR
Test beginning: 2016

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/surface-to-air-missiles-terror-in-the-sky.20716/page-22#post-8616484

Chinese radar + LY-80 is unlikely.
Would need not only 3D long range surveillance/tracking radar but also a number of radar illuminators (as LY-80 is semi-active radar homing and afaik China does not yet market/have an APAR-like radar available that can do ICWI)

Umkhonto EIR is still in development.
Denel To Highlight Its Capabilities At Top Middle Eastern Defence Show (31 January 2017): A range of missiles manufactured by Denel Dynamics will be on display at the Denel stand. This includes the Umkhonto-EIR surface-to-air missile
http://www.denel.co.za/press-articl...lities-At-Top-Middle-Eastern-Defence-Show/155
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...ne-to-increase-missile-range&catid=7:Industry

Turkish AESA ?

ASELSAN license produces Thales SMART-S Mk2 Naval 3-D Search Radar for use with Turkish MILGEM corvettes.
There were reports that Pakistan & Thales discussed an AD system at IDEAS 2016 (search radar ?).
CAFRAD?

cafrad1310ffantenne.jpg%7Eoriginal

aselsan%25C3%25A7afrad02.JPG


It is likely that LF-2400 also uses the Mark 41 VLS (as Istanbul-class frigates). MBDA CAMM is plausible.

According to mbda-systems.com,
But, does that rule out the use of Sylver A50 VLS, which is very similar to Mk41 self-defence?

Vertical Missile Launcher Sylver
Model # Length Width Height Weight
A-35
2.6 meter 2.3 meter 3.5 meter 7 ton
A-43 2.6 meter 2.3 meter 4.3 meter 7.5 ton
A-50 2.6 meter 2.3 meter 5.0 meter 8 ton
A-70 2.6 meter 2.3 meter 7.0 meter 12 ton

Mk 41 VLS adopts modular design concept, which result in different versions that vary in size and weight due to different "canisters" in various modules. The height (missile length) of the launcher comes in three sizes:
209 inches (5.3 m) for the self-defense version,
266 inches (6.8 m) for the tactical version, and
303 inches (7.7 m) for the strike version.

The empty weight for an 8-cell module is 26,800 pounds (12,200 kg) for the self-defense version, 29,800 pounds (13,500 kg) for the tactical version, and 32,000 pounds (15,000 kg) for the strike version
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/conte...s2/documents/launchers/MK41_VLS_factsheet.pdf

As for deck footprint, I used 2 sources to deduce the following:
1 module (8 cells): 103 x 135 inch = 2.62 x 3.43 meter (1x1)
2 modules (16 cells): 103 x 249 inch = 2.62 x 6.32 meter (1x2 mated at the short side)
4 modules (32 cells): ? x 249 inch = ? x 6.32 meter (2x2 vlu)
8 modules (64 cells): 343 x 249 inch = 8.71 x 6.32 meter (4x2 vlu)
with ? somewhere in between 171.5"= 4.36m and 206"= 5.23m e.g. 188.75" = 4.97m

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/systems/mk41-strike.pdf
https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk41-tactical.pdf
 
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I was surprised to learn there IS a Hisar-Manpad (but: good for Turkey!). However, I did get the impression from the post below that a year ago is was still only a project rather than an operational manpad. So, the question is when this manpad could be available (2018?). Pakistan licence produces Chinese HM- and QW-series manpads under the ANZA brand. Possibly a Bora type launcher could accommodate those too.

12509200_1085759901447810_5906652316450698076_n.jpg


"Roketsan Hisar Manpad very low altitude air defense fuze project with ...

The first design visualization of the national defense shoulder air defense fuze, which continues its design and development work on the Hisar air defense fuze developed by the Roketsan company with national facilities.

While there is not much information about technology, it is stated that fuzein will be the world's most modern shoulder-fired air defense fuller, and its competitors will be Manpad air defense fighter like USA production Stinger and Russian production Igla, 9K333 Verba."
https://www.facebook.com/T.C.savunm...939095963226/1085759901447810/?type=3&theater

oEvjPR.png

piclink http://www.millisavunma.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/oEvjPR.png

"The "HISAR" air defense fuze system family, which continues to be developed by Aselsan and Roketsan.

HISAR Fulseri; Air defense defenses against military aircraft, harbors, facilities and units against air threats and against defensive and unmanned air vehicles which are aimed at fixed and rotating wing aircraft, cruising planes, airborne. COMMERCIAL FIRMS are designed in a modular structure in family integrity, compatible with different platform integrations, changing shot control and command control infrastructures."
http://www.millisavunma.com/tag/hisar-manpad/

pEgAVJ.jpg

Hisar MANPADS
Altitude: 4+ km
Range: 6+ km
Guidance: IR + UV or IIR
Test beginning: 2016

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/surface-to-air-missiles-terror-in-the-sky.20716/page-22#post-8616484


Would need not only 3D long range surveillance/tracking radar but also a number of radar illuminators (as LY-80 is semi-active radar homing and afaik China does not yet market/have an APAR-like radar available that can do ICWI)


Denel To Highlight Its Capabilities At Top Middle Eastern Defence Show (31 January 2017): A range of missiles manufactured by Denel Dynamics will be on display at the Denel stand. This includes the Umkhonto-EIR surface-to-air missile
http://www.denel.co.za/press-articl...lities-At-Top-Middle-Eastern-Defence-Show/155
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...ne-to-increase-missile-range&catid=7:Industry


CAFRAD?

cafrad1310ffantenne.jpg%7Eoriginal

aselsan%25C3%25A7afrad02.JPG



But, does that rule out the use of Sylver A50 VLS, which is very similar to Mk41 self-defence?

Vertical Missile Launcher Sylver
Model # Length Width Height Weight
A-35
2.6 meter 2.3 meter 3.5 meter 7 ton
A-43 2.6 meter 2.3 meter 4.3 meter 7.5 ton
A-50 2.6 meter 2.3 meter 5.0 meter 8 ton
A-70 2.6 meter 2.3 meter 7.0 meter 12 ton

Mk 41 VLS adopts modular design concept, which result in different versions that vary in size and weight due to different "canisters" in various modules. The height (missile length) of the launcher comes in three sizes:
209 inches (5.3 m) for the self-defense version,
266 inches (6.8 m) for the tactical version, and
303 inches (7.7 m) for the strike version.

The empty weight for an 8-cell module is 26,800 pounds (12,200 kg) for the self-defense version, 29,800 pounds (13,500 kg) for the tactical version, and 32,000 pounds (15,000 kg) for the strike version

Bora concept is applied to some FAC's for trials but As far as I know, Turkish Navy not satisfied the performance of Stinger missiles (Reaction time, The missile's speed...etc) in fast naval threat environment so Bora system never get an order from Turkish Navy. The Hisar-Manpad will house new technologies and heat-jamming resistant seeker head and better speed/reaction time which is going to meet the requirements of not only Land Forces, but also Navy as well.

bora_2.jpg



Hisar SAM family which is drawn above should be updated based on latest developments.

Turkish Land Forces
-Hisar Manpad - 4km altitude, 6km range
-Hisar-A - 10km altitude, 16+km range, 4m length, 230kg weight
-Hisar-O - 15km altitude, 25+km range (Ismail Demir stated 40km) (Hisar-O missile fly around 60 second at last test launch) 4,5m length, 300kg weight
-Hisar-U IIR-RF dual seeker, 20+km Altitude, 150km range

Turkish Air Forces
Hisar-ON Long Altitude Medium Range-RF, 20km altitude, 50km range

Turkish Navy (D means "Deniz"- Sea)
Hisar-AD
Hisar-OD
Hisar-UD
 
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Denel To Highlight Its Capabilities At Top Middle Eastern Defence Show (31 January 2017): A range of missiles manufactured by Denel Dynamics will be on display at the Denel stand. This includes the Umkhonto-EIR surface-to-air missile
http://www.denel.co.za/press-articl...lities-At-Top-Middle-Eastern-Defence-Show/155
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...ne-to-increase-missile-range&catid=7:Industry


CAFRAD?

cafrad1310ffantenne.jpg%7Eoriginal

aselsan%25C3%25A7afrad02.JPG



But, does that rule out the use of Sylver A50 VLS, which is very similar to Mk41 self-defence?

Vertical Missile Launcher Sylver
Model # Length Width Height Weight
A-35
2.6 meter 2.3 meter 3.5 meter 7 ton
A-43 2.6 meter 2.3 meter 4.3 meter 7.5 ton
A-50 2.6 meter 2.3 meter 5.0 meter 8 ton
A-70 2.6 meter 2.3 meter 7.0 meter 12 ton

Mk 41 VLS adopts modular design concept, which result in different versions that vary in size and weight due to different "canisters" in various modules. The height (missile length) of the launcher comes in three sizes:
209 inches (5.3 m) for the self-defense version,
266 inches (6.8 m) for the tactical version, and
303 inches (7.7 m) for the strike version.

The empty weight for an 8-cell module is 26,800 pounds (12,200 kg) for the self-defense version, 29,800 pounds (13,500 kg) for the tactical version, and 32,000 pounds (15,000 kg) for the strike version

Umkhonto EIR remains in development.

Denel Dynamics develops expendable nose cone to increase missile range | defenceWeb


Aselsan website does not mention CAFRAD among its products yet.


There are reasons I did not comment on Sylver and also Aster-15. Offered by France-based companies, these are the most unlikely options when it comes to PN. After 2007, the only notable French defence exports to Pakistan are some helicopters.

French unwillingness to sell & high prices continue to hinder sales. Recent examples are Thales Damocles and Agosta 90B upgrade. Turks capitalized and won both the contracts.
 
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Umkhonto EIR remains in development.

Denel Dynamics develops expendable nose cone to increase missile range | defenceWeb


Aselsan website does not mention CAFRAD among its products yet.


There are reasons I did not comment on Sylver and also Aster-15. Offered by France-based companies, these are the most unlikely options when it comes to PN. After 2007, the only notable French defence exports to Pakistan are some helicopters.

French unwillingness to sell & high prices continue to hinder sales. Recent examples are Thales Damocles and Agosta 90B upgrade. Turks capitalized and won both the contracts.
Yea but as of IDEX 2017 (February), Denel started to actively market the Umkhonto EIR. This might mean that the missile is in the late development stage and/or is basically ready for sale. In fact, even it is not available today, it probably will be by the time the first Pakistani ship is ready to be fitted (2019-2020?). The time is a drawback, but the Umkhonto EIR could be bought in ZAR, which is much cheaper than USD and EUR.

The PN can also freely select its radar (i.e. save) and Denel won't have a problem linking the Umkhonto EIR too it.

The French issue will be a factor to consider with the MBDA CAMM/Sea Ceptor as it too relies on the Sylver VLS.
 
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The French issue will be a factor to consider with the MBDA CAMM/Sea Ceptor as it too relies on the Sylver VLS.
i cant image the camm being reliant on the sylver vls. its too big and bulky. the purpose of the missile is to for a small potent package on small littoral ships and frigates. it has to compete with the mica, essm, and the south african one which i cant pronounce its name.

the purpose of the sylver vls being fitted on the camm is to have an all in one solution where you can store aster 15/30 and/or the mdcn storm shadow all in one package.
 
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i cant image the camm being reliant on the sylver vls. its too big and bulky. the purpose of the missile is to for a small potent package on small littoral ships and frigates. it has to compete with the mica, essm, and the south african one which i cant pronounce its name.

the purpose of the sylver vls being fitted on the camm is to have an all in one solution where you can store aster 15/30 and/or the mdcn storm shadow all in one package.
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sour...2eqvbaopjuGZHf2rA&sig2=1_LWqnVYsGlYYXyLofqKxA
 
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i cant image the camm being reliant on the sylver vls. its too big and bulky. the purpose of the missile is to for a small potent package on small littoral ships and frigates. it has to compete with the mica, essm, and the south african one which i cant pronounce its name.

the purpose of the sylver vls being fitted on the camm is to have an all in one solution where you can store aster 15/30 and/or the mdcn storm shadow all in one package.
I was under the impression that the deck footprint of Sylver is actually LESS that of an Mk41?
See previous page post:
Sylver 8-cell module: 2.2 x 2.6 meter
Mk41 module (8 cells): 2.6 x 3.4 meter (103 x 135 inch)
 
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depends on the amount of cells
No, I was comparing an 8-cell module of each. Clearly, LMCO markets a single cell launcher also. You wouldn't compare that to a larger, grouped launcher would you? However, we've not seen any Sylver launchers in a large grouping as found on Tico and Burke class ships (64 cells), perhaps there is a little bit of efficiency there.

See last portion of post #343
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...gates-with-turkey.479495/page-23#post-9323566
 
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Yea but as of IDEX 2017 (February), Denel started to actively market the Umkhonto EIR. This might mean that the missile is in the late development stage and/or is basically ready for sale. In fact, even it is not available today, it probably will be by the time the first Pakistani ship is ready to be fitted (2019-2020?). The time is a drawback, but the Umkhonto EIR could be bought in ZAR, which is much cheaper than USD and EUR.

The PN can also freely select its radar (i.e. save) and Denel won't have a problem linking the Umkhonto EIR too it.

The French issue will be a factor to consider with the MBDA CAMM/Sea Ceptor as it too relies on the Sylver VLS.

CAMM can also be quad-packed into the Mk 41 VLS (which Turks will use along with ESSM on their Istanbul-class frigates). 16 x 4 = 64 CAMM will make the LF-2400 a great AAW platform.
It is not known if Umkhonto EIR could be quad-packed into a VLS in the future. Valour-class frigates (of South African Navy) use Umkhonto SAM's and Thales MRR-3D NG G-band multi-role radar.

ASELSAN license produces Thales SMART-S Mk2 Naval 3-D Search Radar for use with Turkish MILGEM corvettes. IMO, PN will also go with the Thales option.

* I don't think Umkhonto (or Umkhonto EIR) can be fitted to the F-22P Zulfiquar-class frigates (using inclined launchers).
 
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No, I was comparing an 8-cell module of each. Clearly, LMCO markets a single cell launcher also. You wouldn't compare that to a larger, grouped launcher would you? However, we've not seen any Sylver launchers in a large grouping as found on Tico and Burke class ships (64 cells), perhaps there is a little bit of efficiency there.

See last portion of post #343
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...gates-with-turkey.479495/page-23#post-9323566
there both similar in size not so sure on the length thought
 
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Aselsan website does not mention CAFRAD among its products yet.

Aselsan Developing Multimission Phased-Array Strategic Radar for Turkey
By Editor - August 22, 2013

Turkey has awarded its biggest defense company, Aselsan, a contract for the design, development, and production of a domestically-executed strategic radar. The Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM) signed the deal with Aselsan in early August.
The multimission phased-array radar, known as CAFRAD Faz-1, is expected to be similar to the ALPHA multimission M-2258 advanced lightweight phased-array naval radar. That radar – developed by Israel’s IAI and Elta for blue water and littoral warfare support – was selected by the Israeli Navy for upgrades to existing vessels and to equip new-build ships.
A project like the CAFRAD Faz-1 is quite ambitious for Aselsan, which is undertaking for the first time the development of such a complex radar. Regardless of any potential shortcomings in technological advancements during the developmental process, Aselsan is still optimistic that it will meet a timetable for delivery completions between 2014 and 2018. To speed the system’s development and leverage the country’s most advanced scientific minds, Aselsan has partnered with the state scientific research institute TÜBITAK.
The first phase of the project will entail the development of an illumination radar and a non-rotating identification friend or foe (IFF) system. This will pave the way for the much more difficult second phase that involves the development of long-range surveillance and multifunctional radars.
An Aselsan official said the CAFRAD demonstrator would equip the TF-2000, a Turkish developed air defense frigate, incorporating the primary antenna in the mast architecture. It will handle the vessel’s combat management and area air defense missile systems. For this effort, more sophisticated tests and development are not expected to start until after 2014.
http://www.***************/aselsan-...hased-array-strategic-radar-for-turkey-48827/

IDEF 2015: ASELSAN ÇAFRAD, Multifunction, Phased Array Radar System Nearly Completed

On the occasion of IDEF 2015 (the International Defence Industry Fair which was held last week in Istanbul, Turkey), Navy Recognition contacted leading Turkish defense company ASELSAN to learn about the ÇAFRAD radar system, the radar that will be fitted on the future Turkish Navy Frigate TF2000 class. ASELSAN got back to us with the latest development in this major program:
ÇAFRAD is a Multifunction, Phased Array Radar System which represent a common, scalable radar solution for the naval platforms. Development of the ÇAFRAD System is nearly completed, in scope of the contract signed between Undersecretariat for Defence Industries-Turkey (SSM) and ASELSAN in September 2013.
The system will include 3 radar systems working together to achieve the following missions:
» Multi Function Active Phased Array Radar:
o Volume and horizon search,
o Air and surface targets detection, tracking and classification,
o Small, low altitude and high velocity air targets detection and tracking
o Fire control quality target tracking.
» Long range Active Phased Array Radar:
o Long Range volume search,
o Air and surface targets detection and tracking.
» Active Phased Array Illuminator:
o Semi Active Missile Guidance
ÇAFRAD system will house tens of thousands microwave GaN based Transmit/Receive modules. ASELSAN established a high capacity serial production line dedicated to this program in their new Gölbasi, Ankara facility.

GaN power amplifier MMICs, that is one of the critical blocks of those T/R modules, is being developed in Turkey and will also be produced in Turkey. ASELSAN and Bilkent University jointly established a GaN foundry named AB-MikroNano in December 2014 responsible for mass production of GaN dies.

The ÇAFRAD system is intended to be fitted on board the future TF-2000 class anti-air warfare frigate of the Turkish Navy, currently undergoing development by the Turkish Naval Institute. Navy Recognition learned during IDEF 2015 that ÇAFRAD could also be fitted on a much smaller future Fast Attack Craft project developed by RMK Marine, which illustrates its scalability.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...ased-array-radar-system-nearly-completed.html

TF-2000: As of mid-1999 the first unit was planned to be commissioned in 2003, with deliveries planned between 2003 and 2008, although delays were expected. As of 2012 the first ship was planned to enter service in 2018.

Anti-air Warfare Ship (TF 2000) Project
Objective : Acquisition of anti-air warfare frigates that will provide survivability in the presence of aerial threat and also support mission functions such as command control and communication, reconnaissance, early warning, surface warfare, anti-submarine warfare and electronic warfare.
Scope : Procurement of anti-air warfare frigates in order to meet the Turkish Navy requirements.
Status : Feasibility studies has been completed. The project is ongoing to determine the model.
Last Updated : 24.07.2015 13:39
http://www.ssm.gov.tr/home/projects/Sayfalar/proje.aspx?projeID=39

there both similar in size not so sure on the length thought
As indicated:
Sylver 8-cell module: 2.2 x 2.6 meter
Mk41 module (8 cells): 2.6 x 3.4 meter (103 x 135 inch)
This indicates a 20% difference in footprint for an 8-cell module.

As for lengths, see the same post I refered to earlier.

Lengths and empty weights Sylver variants (8-cell module)
A-35 3.5 meter, 7 ton
A-43 4.3 meter, 7.5 ton
A-50 5.0 meter, 8 ton
A-70 7.0 meter, 12 ton

Lengths and empty weights for Mk41 three sizes (8-cell module):
Self-defence: 209 inches (5.3 m), 26,800 lbs (12,2 ton)
Tactical: 266 inches (6.8 m), 29,800 lbs (13,5 ton)
Strike: 303 inches (7.7 m), 32,000 lbs (15,0 ton)

Comparing Sylver A-50 with similar length Self-Defence Mk41 shows Sylver is slightly shorter and about 1/3 lighter, with a 20% smaller 'footprint' at deck-level.
 
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