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Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

A (mutual) realization that perhaps there are other possibilities than adversarial relations (picture the amount of resources that would free up for other purposes ....)
Mate I wish the same for both countries but I am afraid with current dynamics and hostilities it isn't possible:( lets hope we get more open to the idea in the future
 
A more equal sized fleet (which is not going to happen).
6 to 8 Gowind 2500; pb solved!

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PN screwed up when they did not chose to Lease 2-3 Type 54A's ..
 
@ghazi768 the world learned of the trouble in detecti g low flying objects and the threat of AShM in Falklands, but as it relates to HMS Sheffield, the incident was a swiss cheese effect of error where every possible issue that could go wrong did. They were at secondary readiness with regard to the threat from Exocets and had 2 previous warning and disregarded them as overrated. They regarded the threat from AN type 209s far more seriously. Infact the two super etendards that sunk her were picked up at 74km out by HMS Glasgow (which was on high readiness) and was relayed over UHF and HF radio using a secure codeword to all ships in the task force and Sheffield's commanders regarded the warning as a false alert. Due to the secondary readiness they failed to detect the Super Etendards which Glasgow picked up and as a result failed to go to battle stations. Neither her AA Guns not her sea darts were activated and readied.

She did however pick up the missiles on her type 965 radar however no weapons were activated and she had little in the way of ECM systems to defend herself. When there was visual confirmation of missiles it was too late and within 5 seconds she was hit and started sinking. Had she been on operational alert amd with todays systems with long ranfe radar amd improved ability to detect missiles and fire weapons in rapid succession in 360 degree coverage, she may have had a better chance.

"The Royal Navy Court of Inquiry suggested the critical factors leading to loss of Sheffield were:

  1. Failure to respond to HMS Glasgow's detection and communication of two approaching Super Etendards by immediately going to action stations and launching chaff decoys
  2. Lack of ECM jamming capability;
  3. Lack of a point defense system
  4. Inadequate operator training, in particular simulated realistic low-level target acquisition.
Slow response of the available 909 Sea Dart tracking radar and its operator limited the possible response. "

Report of HMS Nelson Board of Inquiry into the loss of HMS Sheffield, 1982. Released CIC Fleet Northwood Sept 82

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Sheffield_(D80)

To me this indicates more of a lack of preparation than failure of concept missile defense systems.

Also i think you may misunderstand me. I am not advocating one air defense over another. I saying both fighter and missile based defense is critical for a fleet like PN. I am advocating that you will have to spend the money for multipurpose ships which can assist better in their own defense even if that means less number of total warships because the ones that you have will be effective especially if employed effectively.

I accept the premise that you are build towards a brown water navy, but that will still entail need to defend your assets as best as possible. One Istanbul class frigate in time of war would carry more firepower and defensive power than 2 Ada class corvettes. It will be better positioned to assist in air defense and fleet protection than Ada class. Relying solely on PAF for air cover is not feasible when even they will be out gunned during a war. Both services will need to complement each other. As such you must have some modicum of air defense or it will simply be too much pressure on PAF. If your goal is a brown water navy, you can make up the numbers with large FAC/light corvettes like Azmat class or FAC-55 which carry the same number of AShM and can be fit with similar air defense as Ada (8-24 cell FL-3000N) and could use CIWS as main guns to give an additional layer of defense. These are more cost effective for peacetime patrol and securing sea and communications lanes.

As far as my audacity to call it treasonous to go with Ada, i accept that perhaps its too strong a word, but read the full premise, it smells like a repeat of the Agosta 90b saga of kickbacks. I could be wrong and hope i am, but there has been numerous precedence where Pakistan is to buy a system (even one that is actually good) but its used to line pockets. If i offended you i apologize. But to me, spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a watered down system is problematic and questionable at best, when a better solution is sitting next to it and fits the holes in your capabilities fairly well.

May be wikipedia is correct but I remember that radars did not detect, warning got issued because of an intercept either radar or signals..

This was got studied with very keen interest.. also because of one of weapon system employed i.e. sea wolf which was being considered those days. I think it is the last naval war till today in which fighters made old world war 2 style bombs runs against warships. I have forgotten the details but in one such bomb run made by Argentinian A4s against a Type 42 armed with sea dart and another frigate armed with sea wolf, considered a good PDS those days, both ships got hit. One was fortunate that the bomb hitting it did not explode while other, I think the Type-42, got hit by two and sank within minutes. Also radars of both were said to have been unable to detect or track the very low flying bombers. It was very brave of Argentinian pilots, it was considered suicidal at the times to go against a sea wolf like PDS without using proper jamming and EW equipments.

I understand your opinion.. what I am saying is that we should give them the leeway as they mostly are not in a position to explain things out in public. Numbers is what they are primarily trying to get up as fast as they can.. an MR-SAM may come to a limited number as an upgrade.. lighter Azmat class FAC will continue to be added but they lack certain tactical abilities..

I do agree with you about kickbacks... but I do not think that much can be done about it.. for big ticket items its largely controlled at the political end..
 
@Penguin What you think will it be good to face IN?
  • Plenty of good mobile coastal antiship missiles batteries, covered by good mobile SAMs, and backed by mobile coastal defence forces (troops). e.g. the 150 nm (170 mi; 280 km) C-602 plus a dedicated antiship-version of Babur 243-405nm (280-466 mi; 450-750km). e.g. LY-80 + FM-3000 + truck mounted 76mm and/or twin 35mm.
  • Sufficient Naval strike capability of the air force based along the coast (F-16 + 2 AGM-84 Harpoon, JF-17 + 2 C802, Mirage III/IV + 2x AM39 Exocet, K-8 + ), backed by MPA and other ISR assets. Up to 8 AGM-84 Harpoon underwing on P3 Orion MPA.
  • Well defended ports (i.e. each with landbased air- and grounddefences, as well as a squadron of 2-3 MCM ships, 2-3 coastal ASW ships (2x 35mm twin, 8 Umkhonto, ASW rockets, light ASW torpedoes, sonars), 2-3 FAC-M e.g. something like Hamina class but with e.g. 76mm, 2*2 C-602s, 8 Umkhonto). Backed by land-based medium helicopters for SAR, ASW and ASuW. In at least half of these a total 12 AIP submarines can safely dock in (i.e. presence of "u-boat bunkers") and slip out well protected. Think small "bastions".
Not quite sure about major surface ships yet. Possible something along the lines of 9 Navantia Avante 2200 Combattante and 3 Alpha 4000 (to serve as group command ships).
http://www.navantia.es/interior.php?id_sec=3&id_pag=265
avante_2200_side-navantia_official_thru_flickr.jpg


To lighten the patrol load on these ships, you could add a few modified civilian ships. See e.g. Malaysian Navy's use of MT Bunga Mas Lima and MT Bunga Mas Enam. The conversion included modifications to accommodate extra crew, fittings for launching rigid hull inflatable boats, a helicopter deck to accommodate landing and a hangar. The foreword crane of Bunga Mas Lima was taken out since it presence inhibited helicopter landing while the 2nd crane were rested to the starboard side of the ship above the hangar.
S1603-19-Bunga-Mas-Lima-2002.jpg


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I could see some containerized NSM missiles or Kh-35 Uran. Or even Klub family of missiles.
Container-NSM.jpg


kh35e-container.jpg


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Project 20386 ship (a modification of 20380) has room for it in its rear hull below deck helicopter hangar. Interesting ship by the way...
33as95g.jpg

https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....1/project-20386-small-patrol-ships-corvettes/
rkv3lt.jpg


 
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  • Plenty of good mobile coastal antiship missiles batteries, covered by good mobile SAMs, and backed by mobile coastal defence forces (troops). e.g. the 150 nm (170 mi; 280 km) C-602 plus a dedicated antiship-version of Babur 243-405nm (280-466 mi; 450-750km). e.g. LY-80 + FM-3000 + truck mounted 76mm and/or twin 35mm.
  • Sufficient Naval strike capability of the air force based along the coast (F-16 + 2 AGM-84 Harpoon, JF-17 + 2 C802, Mirage III/IV + 2x AM39 Exocet, K-8 + ), backed by MPA and other ISR assets. Up to 8 AGM-84 Harpoon underwing on P3 Orion MPA.
  • Well defended ports (i.e. each with landbased air- and grounddefences, as well as a squadron of 2-3 MCM ships, 2-3 coastal ASW ships (2x 35mm twin, 8 Umkhonto, ASW rockets, light ASW torpedoes, sonars), 2-3 FAC-M e.g. something like Hamina class but with e.g. 76mm, 2*2 C-602s, 8 Umkhonto). Backed by land-based medium helicopters for SAR, ASW and ASuW. In at least half of these a total 12 AIP submarines can safely dock in (i.e. presence of "u-boat bunkers") and slip out well protected. Think small "bastions".
Not quite sure about major surface ships yet. Possible something along the lines of 9 Navantia Avante 2200 Combattante and 3 Alpha 4000 (to serve as group command ships).
http://www.navantia.es/interior.php?id_sec=3&id_pag=265
avante_2200_side-navantia_official_thru_flickr.jpg
The MILGEM Ada is quite close in dimensions and capabilities to the Avante 2200. Yes, there are specific design characteristics (e.g. bridge area) that make an 8-cell VLS a certainty, but I truly believe the same can be had on the MILGEM Ada with some design modifications (e.g. moving the gun up the bow, elevating the area under the spot of the VLS, etc).

https://www.navantia.es/ckfinder/userfiles/files/Avante 2200 Combatant(1).pdf
 
6 to 8 Gowind 2500; pb solved!

images
Egypt has signed a €1bn contract with French naval systems group DCNS to buy four Gowind 2,400 ton corvettes with an option for two more.
What's so special about this? Aside fromthe price tag...

2014-09-05-gowind-2500-avec-tanan-arme.jpg
 
The MILGEM Ada is quite close in dimensions and capabilities to the Avante 2200. Yes, there are specific design characteristics (e.g. bridge area) that make an 8-cell VLS a certainty, but I truly believe the same can be had on the MILGEM Ada with some design modifications (e.g. moving the gun up the bow, elevating the area under the spot of the VLS, etc).

https://www.navantia.es/ckfinder/userfiles/files/Avante 2200 Combatant(1).pdf
The Spanish ship is all diesel CODAD, has better range. It can give you 2x4 Harpoon, 2x3 ASW tubes, 76mm, RAM (instead of 35mm Millenium rear) plus a VLS. It has a bit lower grade sensors. Overall, I think it would be cheaper.

There are several more offerings in this category that could be considered e.g. from Fincantieri
https://www.fincantieri.com/en/products-and-services/naval-vessels/multirole-corvette/

Confirmed VLS capacity. That's what's special about it.
So has Orizzonte Sistemi Navali's MOSAIC 2400 design and Navantia's Avante 2200 Combatante and the South Korean Hyundai ships for Philippines.

http://navaltoday.com/2012/02/09/italy-orizzonte-sistemi-navali-presents-mosaic/
 
The Spanish ship is all diesel CODAD, has better range. It can give you 2x4 Harpoon, 2x3 ASW tubes, 76mm, RAM (instead of 35mm Millenium rear) plus a VLS. It has a bit lower grade sensors. Overall, I think it would be cheaper.

There are several more offerings in this category that could be considered e.g. from Fincantieri
https://www.fincantieri.com/en/products-and-services/naval-vessels/multirole-corvette/


So has Orizzonte Sistemi Navali's MOSAIC 2400 design and Navantia's Avante 2200 Combatante and the South Korean Hyundai ships for Philippines.

http://navaltoday.com/2012/02/09/italy-orizzonte-sistemi-navali-presents-mosaic/
Bar the VLS the MILGEM is similarly equipped to the Navantia 2200 Combante. Honestly, I don't think the 2200 Combante would be too far off from the MILGEM Ada in terms of price, i.e. $200-250m per ship range.

All that said, it appears that the PN is basically looking at 90-100m ships with 2x4 AShM, 2x3 ASW tubes, RAM, 76 mm main gun, helicopter flight deck and hangar. The main variable is VLS (caused by interest in the MILGEM Ada), but I think the Ada design can take it.
 
The Avante is not stealth, old design; the MOSAIC
still but a design and so is the Hyundai if active.

It is correct that the latter is a lot of ship for a very
very low price. If the timetable coincides with Pakis-
tan's needs and means, it would be a fine choice too.

But still, get half a dozen or more in bulk slash series.
And maybe, if money is scarce then pick DCNS or Orriz
and play on the sizes to mix-match a fleet of same design.

I was just pointing out that the idea of a single class fits
the Pakistani paradigm as long as it gets longer range
effectors to clear out its bubble of the Indian ocean if ...

Good day both, Tay.
 
I still dont see why pn doesn't try to acquire the 3-4 remaining Adelaides as they retire. They are good ships able to serve another 15+years and would be dirt cheap.

As for MiLGEM, we will have to wait and see. It PN wanted to get MILGEM - ADA, one wonders why for cost and systems and patrol, one wonders why it didn't go for the chinese 1500t multi-mission frigate with its 2 ciws and 24 vls cells. If you replaced the rear ciws with PDMS like FL-3000N it would be even better. A cost effective small patrol sized vessel capable of a bigger punch
And your 'enhance Azmat' (Range: approximately 1,000 nmi) would be able to effectively patrol and control Pakistan's EEZ and - more importantly - its ECS? As compared to e.g. Ada class (range: 3,500 nmi)

550c8f79b8280.jpg


Taking into account that while PAK EEZ is out of the piracy 'High Risk Area', the ECS is not.

If you read my post about the FACs being used for patrol i stated it was to supplement larger vessels to make up numbers. PN would still have 8 large surface vessels (4 F-22P, 1 OHP, 3 Istanbul class), and 11 AIP subs. Having more FAC means those ships would be patrolling the EEZ and the FACs would be responsible for the litoral waters. You would have far more capabilities with those three better equipped surface vessels and 1-2 FAC than with 4 Ada.
 
I still dont see why pn doesn't try to acquire the 3-4 remaining Adelaides as they retire. They are good ships able to serve another 15+years and would be dirt cheap.

As for MiLGEM, we will have to wait and see. It PN wanted to get MILGEM - ADA, one wonders why for cost and systems and patrol, one wonders why it didn't go for the chinese 1500t multi-mission frigate with its 2 ciws and 24 vls cells. If you replaced the rear ciws with PDMS like FL-3000N it would be even better. A cost effective small patrol sized vessel capable of a bigger punch


If you read my post about the FACs being used for patrol i stated it was to supplement larger vessels to make up numbers. PN would still have 8 large surface vessels (4 F-22P, 1 OH P, 3 Istanbul class), and 11 AIP subs. Having more FAC means those ships would be patrolling the EEZ and the FACs would be responsible for the litoral waters. You would have far more capabilities with those three better equipped surface vessels and 1-2 FAC than with 4 Ada.


Well! i think Pakistan will going for 056 chinese ships with having stealth and ballastic missile capabaility
what do u think about tht bro?

Egypt has signed a €1bn contract with French naval systems group DCNS to buy four Gowind 2,400 ton corvettes with an option for two more.
What's so special about this? Aside fromthe price tag...

2014-09-05-gowind-2500-avec-tanan-arme.jpg

made in france :cheesy:
 
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