Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[Basel]

Ideal would be the MBDA CAMM or the KM-SAM. The back-up (if CAMM and KM-SAM are unavailable or inaccessible) should be the Umkhonto EIR. But with the Umkhonto EIR, we should get it with technology transfer and collaborative development for the Marlin (or 60 km Umkhonto R).

Why not Aster-15 block-1 or CAMM-ER??

 

[ghazi768]

The FL-3000N provides 24 cells' worth of PDMS. The VLS with MR-SAM could have anywhere from 8 to 32 missiles, potentially more if you have a frigate. That single ship would have to be a target of a remarkably massive AShM assault from quite a few MiG-29s and Su-30s. This also assumes that there is nothing else happening in the area with regards to other surface warships, submarines or combat aircraft (on both sides).

Saturation will occur even for a point defence system because most systems can not track and guide total number of salvos available to fire at any time. How will an MR-SAM even able to detect an incoming missile at below 500 feet what to say of actually intercepting it, can you please guide me in this regards?

You are mixing things up, how you will have combat aircrafts in air when your battle group will be outside range of land based fighters to provide support? will you be flying MPAs without any air support while you are hurling your fleet towards an enemy carrier battle group?
How other surface ships will help when your ship with the longest range radar will even have trouble detecting a launch at 300 km away?

 

[Rocky rock]

So no deal has got signed during PM Visit. So what now are we out of budget again?

 

[Basel]

@Penguin Is it possible / viable to deploy Aerostate radars through ships at open ocean?? If yes, how effective it can be against approaching threats and deploying countermeasures?

 

[Penguin]

hmm.. how your MR-SAM will intercept those missiles, they will already be skimming by that time, and how many your point defence will intercept before it gets saturated?

Saturated? You said "a Mig-29k/Su-30" so that is at most 3 missiles.

3M22 Zircon (which would be coming operational in 2019) would be airlaunched from Tu-160 Blackjacl or PAK-DA, both rather large aircraft. In the summer of 2012 test trials of Tu-22M3 bomber armed with hypersonic air-based cruise missile were held at the State Flight and Research Center in Akhtubinsk. Not a small aircraft either.

Brahmos II would be similar to Zircon including in size and weight. Not unlikely, it is the same size/weight class as Yaklhont/Brahmos in which case a Mig-29K/Su-30 could carry just 1 (centreline).

For a saturation attack, one would need quite a few Mig-29K/Su-30, actually

At Mach 7 = 2,382.03 m/s, it takes Zircon about 126 seconds (over 2 minutes) to close a 300km distance.
Long range surveillance radar SUR-16 range 300km > 126 seconds warning against Mig-29K/Su-30
SR60 radar range 150km to aircraft (63 sec) and 50km to sea-skimming missiles (21 sec)
Guidance radar detection range 25km. At mach 7, 25km is closed in 10.5 seconds
Missile range 15km. At mach 7, 15km is closed in 9.4 seconds.
HQ7/FM90 Speed: Mach 2.3 (750 m/s)
At 750m/s, FM-90 can fly out to 15km in 20 seconds and to 7km in 9,4 seconds.

Essentially your main radar needs to detect first the launch aircraft and second the missile early enough so engagement is started timely. Interception at max FM90 range will be virtually impossible, but should be possible at around 7km.

My point was basically that you guys are advising a wrong medicine.. guided missile destroyers/frigates are for battle group defence.. battle groups which also include carriers.. carriers which provide the the crucial 200-250km CAP, which with BVR can fly high, which your opponents cannot afford..

Send a battle group, without air support, with whatever number of guided missile destroyers you are happy with.. and than have the agony or enjoyment of watching the slaughter..

For the Mig-29K, internal fuel was increased from 3,340 kg to 4,560 kg, to give a combat radius of 850 km (531 mi). This combat radius can be increased to 1,300 kilometres with 3 underwing fuel drop tanks.

 

[Tank131]

Lets say INs main AshM is a 300km hypersonic missile and you have a 350km + 50 km long and medium ranged SAMs packed guided missile destroyer. How will you defend and avoid a Mig-29k/Su-30 which approaches at 10,000 ft and tries to offload its payload at 300 km away?

With air surveillance radars from the ship providing initial detection and you have missiles with reasonable range and numbers, you can intercept even hypersonic missiles at range. That is what these missiles like ESSM, CAMM, KM-SAM ect werr designed to do. More than taking out aircraft they were designed to protect the ship against AShM. They will need possibly 2 missiles in doing so, hence why i have advocated the importance and both range (buying more time to intercept brahmos) and quad packing (allowing more missiles to take out multiple targets). The idea of such a ship is that they have layered defense. A ship like Istanbul classwould carry 16-64 missiles medium range missiles depending on the VLS system and missile chosen. Those would be backed by a pdms like RAM or FL-3000N which would have anywhere from 8-24 missiles. These could be backed by CIWS as a last line. An air defense optimized Istanbul class (64 medium range SAM like ESSM or CAMM, with a 24 cell FL-3000N backed by a Phalanx or Type 730 CIWS) would be able to take on a saturation style attack and likely survive (something in the range of 6-8 missiles). That being said, as @Penguin has previously pointed out, its unlikely that 6-8 missiles would be fired at one ship. Beyond this such an attack would meed at least 6 - 8 Migs as they would only be able to carry single Brahmos on centerline, or 2-3 surface ships.

Ada class and F-22P would likely not survive such an attack but may be able to overcome 2-3 hypersonic missiles.

 

[ghazi768]

Saturated? You said "a Mig-29k/Su-30" so that is at most 3 missiles.

3M22 Zircon (which would be coming operational in 2019) would be airlaunched from Tu-160 Blackjacl or PAK-DA, both rather large aircraft. In the summer of 2012 test trials of Tu-22M3 bomber armed with hypersonic air-based cruise missile were held at the State Flight and Research Center in Akhtubinsk. Not a small aircraft either.

Brahmos II would be similar to Zircon including in size and weight. Not unlikely, it is the same size/weight class as Yaklhont/Brahmos in which case a Mig-29K/Su-30 could carry just 1 (centreline).

For a saturation attack, one would need quite a few Mig-29K/Su-30, actually

At Mach 7 = 2,382.03 m/s, it takes Zircon about 126 seconds (over 2 minutes) to close a 300km distance.
Long range surveillance radar SUR-16 range 300km > 126 seconds warning against Mig-29K/Su-30
SR60 radar range 150km to aircraft (63 sec) and 50km to sea-skimming missiles (21 sec)
Guidance radar detection range 25km. At mach 7, 25km is closed in 10.5 seconds
Missile range 15km. At mach 7, 15km is closed in 9.4 seconds.
HQ7/FM90 Speed: Mach 2.3 (750 m/s)
At 750m/s, FM-90 can fly out to 15km in 20 seconds and to 7km in 9,4 seconds.

Essentially your main radar needs to detect first the launch aircraft and second the missile early enough so engagement is started timely. Interception at max FM90 range will be virtually impossible, but should be possible at around 7km.


For the Mig-29K, internal fuel was increased from 3,340 kg to 4,560 kg, to give a combat radius of 850 km (531 mi). This combat radius can be increased to 1,300 kilometres with 3 underwing fuel drop tanks.

You are entirely missing the point actually, let say it is a 'jumbo jet' at 5000 feet at 300km, which radar is capable of detecting it?

'A Mig-29/Su-30' was an example, who will miss such an opportunity of lifetime to send one fighter.

With air surveillance radars from the ship providing initial detection and you have missiles with reasonable range and numbers, you can intercept even hypersonic missiles at range. That is what these missiles like ESSM, CAMM, KM-SAM ect werr designed to do. More than taking out aircraft they were designed to protect the ship against AShM. They will need possibly 2 missiles in doing so, hence why i have advocated the importance and both range (buying more time to intercept brahmos) and quad packing (allowing more missiles to take out multiple targets). The idea of such a ship is that they have layered defense. A ship like Istanbul classwould carry 16-64 missiles medium range missiles depending on the VLS system and missile chosen. Those would be backed by a pdms like RAM or FL-3000N which would have anywhere from 8-24 missiles. These could be backed by CIWS as a last line. An air defense optimized Istanbul class (64 medium range SAM like ESSM or CAMM, with a 24 cell FL-3000N backed by a Phalanx or Type 730 CIWS) would be able to take on a saturation style attack and likely survive (something in the range of 6-8 missiles). That being said, as @Penguin has previously pointed out, its unlikely that 6-8 missiles would be fired at one ship. Beyond this such an attack would meed at least 6 - 8 Migs as they would only be able to carry single Brahmos on centerline, or 2-3 surface ships.

Ada class and F-22P would likely not survive such an attack but may be able to overcome 2-3 hypersonic missiles.

Please look at my reply to the other gentleman, and let me know what you think.

I am trying to bring home to you guys an operational problem because it is not possible to discuss specific tactics relevant to a platform or weapon system on a public forum, please do not take this as a rude comment but if you can not comprehend this than please first go and study the basics. Than we can have a good discussion about operations and relevant historical examples etc. and what aught to be a realistic strategy.

 

[_NOBODY_]

First of all please forgive for my ignorance. Can Aster-15 be used on MILGEM-G? If yes then which option would be better Aster-15 or Umkhonto in terms of cost effectiveness and quality?
@Quwa @Penguin

 

[HRK]

You are entirely missing the point actually, let say it is a 'jumbo jet' at 5000 feet at 300km, which radar is capable of detecting it?

I think you are trying to indicate the very basic problem of PN which is long the range ship based air surveillance & detection specially in high sea areas where they might be out of AWE&C coverage, there are some ship based systems available in International Market such as

1- KRONOS GRAND NAVAL (> or = 300)
2- KRONOS DUAL BAND
3- KRONOS® POWER SHIELD (> or = 400)
4- EMPAR
5- SMART-L

etc. etc ..... I think currently non of our ship have long range radar installed, therefore your question is still relevant as we don't know which of the system listed above or other similar system will also be available to us or not ...

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin Is it possible / viable to deploy Aerostate radars through ships at open ocean?? If yes, how effective it can be against approaching threats and deploying countermeasures?

Viable to deploy. They have also been also considered for AEW. I don'have much faith in classic barrage balloon role, but I'm sure smart things could be done.

First of all please forgive for my ignorance. Can Aster-15 be used on MILGEM-G? If yes then which option would be better Aster-15 or Umkhonto in terms of cost effectiveness and quality?
@Quwa @Penguin

Sure, provided a Sylver A43 VLS can be fitted. Aster 15 has better range than basic Umkhonto and is active radar homing (not ir-homing). If Umkhonto could be quadpacked, that would be an advantage over the larger Aster: more missiles per VLS.

 

[Penguin]

You are entirely missing the point actually, let say it is a 'jumbo jet' at 5000 feet at 300km, which radar is capable of detecting it?

Older Thales LW-08: 260km, DA-08: 270km.

Thales Smart-S mk2 as on Ada/Milgem detects aircraft out to 250km, same as Thales Herakles PESA. In this range class also the new 5.6 ton Sea Master 400, a non-rotating, four faced S-band (NATO E/F-band) radar. Newest Thales NS100 AESA detects air targets out to 280km, surface targets out to 80km. Above deck: 3.3x3.1m , 1300kg.

Thales SMART-L will detect an MPA out to about 400km and a stealth missile out to 65km. SMART-L EWC will detect ballistic targets out to 2000km, aircraft out to 480km, and surface targets out to 60km. Bae S1850M is a derivative of SMART-L with a range of 400km. NS200 AESA is the larger version of NS100 and detects air targets out to 400km, surface targets out to 80km. Above deck : 3.3x3.1m , 1550kg.

SAMPSON: 450km
EMPAR: 300mi = 482km
Leonardo Kronos : >250km
Leonardo Kronos MFRA: >300km.

'A Mig-29/Su-30' was an example, who will miss such an opportunity of lifetime to send one fighter.

That changes the scenario you gave. As indicated, for a saturation attack on 1 ship, with Zircon / Brahmos II, you'ld need two or three flights with a total of 8-12 aircraft i.e. at least half a squadron.

 

[Storm Force]

Any Idea what the TURKS are charging for each frigate. ???????????????

TO COMPARE

India HAS just agreed to pay $3 billion for four GRIGORVICH class Frigates today

They will be carrying the Brahmos Cruise missles

BELOW IS THE ADA CLASS that PAKISTAN are LOOKING AT

 

[Penguin]

That being said, as @Penguin has previously pointed out, its unlikely that 6-8 missiles would be fired at one ship. Beyond this such an attack would meed at least 6 - 8 Migs as they would only be able to carry single Brahmos on centerline, or 2-3 surface ships.

Ada class and F-22P would likely not survive such an attack but may be able to overcome 2-3 hypersonic missiles.

Consider the unit cost of Brahmos ( US$ 2.73 million). I expect Brahmos II to be even more expensive.
That's 16.3 to 18.4 million dollars worth of missiles to get a single ship. Not counting the value of 6-8 Mig-29K which are put at risk during such an attack (at 32 million dollar each, that makes 192 to 256 million dollar). So it is never a question of a missile costing a few tens of thousends to get a ship costing hundreds of millions.

 

[ghazi768]

Older Thales LW-08: 260km, DA-08: 270km.

Thales Smart-S mk2 as on Ada/Milgem detects aircraft out to 250km, same as Thales Herakles PESA. In this range class also the new 5.6 ton Sea Master 400, a non-rotating, four faced S-band (NATO E/F-band) radar. Newest Thales NS100 AESA detects air targets out to 280km, surface targets out to 80km. Above deck: 3.3x3.1m , 1300kg.

Thales SMART-L will detect an MPA out to about 400km and a stealth missile out to 65km. SMART-L EWC will detect ballistic targets out to 2000km, aircraft out to 480km, and surface targets out to 60km. Bae S1850M is a derivative of SMART-L with a range of 400km. NS200 AESA is the larger version of NS100 and detects air targets out to 400km, surface targets out to 80km. Above deck : 3.3x3.1m , 1550kg.

SAMPSON: 450km
EMPAR: 300mi = 482km
Leonardo Kronos : >250km
Leonardo Kronos MFRA: >300km.


That changes the scenario you gave. As indicated, for a saturation attack on 1 ship, with Zircon / Brahmos II, you'ld need two or three flights with a total of 8-12 aircraft i.e. at least half a squadron.

Having a radar with 450 km range does not mean that the same radar will detect an aircraft sized object at 5000 feet 300 km away, that depends on height of radar mast and whether that can result in microwave LOS or not.

If you can attack a ship undeterred of interception, it does not matter if its one or several fighters, you can keep flying sorties until you destroy the target or the ship's commander come back to senses and run back like hell.

About saturation calculations you are making.. I do not remember having heard or read of any real life simulations of 2 plus AshMs at same target at same time, these all are just calulations. Also it does not matter if total cost of fired rounds is 20 or 40 mn dollars, it is still economical to sink a ship costing 150-500 mn. And more importantly you are able to neutralise an important enemy asset and take it out of war or battle scenario altogether.

 

[Penguin]

Having a radar with 450 km range does not mean that the same radar will detect an aircraft sized object at 5000 feet 300 km away, that depends on height of radar mast and whether that can result in microwave LOS or not.

If you can attack a ship undeterred of interception, it does not matter if its one or several fighters, you can keep flying sorties until you destroy the target or the ship's commander come back to senses and run back like hell.

About saturation calculations you are making.. I do not remember having heard or read of any real life simulations of 2 plus AshMs at same target at same time, these all are just calulations. Also it does not matter if total cost of fired rounds is 20 or 40 mn dollars, it is still economical to sink a ship costing 150-500 mn. And more importantly you are able to neutralise an important enemy asset and take it out of war or battle scenario altogether.

Dear Ghazi, why do you assume I don't know that?

Your question was "which radar is capable of detecting it"
scenario 1: a Mig-29k/Su-30 which approaches at 10,000 ft [3048 meters] and tries to offload its payload at 300 km away?
scenario 2: a 'jumbo jet' at 5000 feet [1524 meters] at 300km

I've provided your the data from producer's marketing material. Typically that is instumented range against combat aircraft and/or MPA (not a large airliner like B747 or A370), unless otherwise specified (see e.g. reference to 'stealth missile' at some point). Likewise, Smart-L's 2000km range in BMD-role does not apply to low flying aircraft or seaskimming missiles, obviously.

Most here are aware of how mounting height affects radar horizon (there are plenty online calculation possibilities for that), and how earth curvature affeact what you can see with eye and radar at long distance.

300km = 162 nmi
Antenna height on e.g. an LCF = 7 decks from waterline x 2.5m = 21m = 69 feet
Conclusion: air target would have to be at well over 10,000 feet to be visible at that distance.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/fran...e-provence-fremm-frigate.434457/#post-8384035

Unless, of course, when your task group included an AEW-asset (e.g. helicopter) on a carrier, a nearby AOR or a multi-hangar combat ship (such as e.g. P16, P16A, P15, P15A, P17 are).

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/fran...e-provence-fremm-frigate.434457/#post-8384035

Italians, for example, operate AgustaWestland EH101 AEW with Eliradar HEW-784 radar in large underfuselage radome (range about 250 km, 100-200km against missiles). UK will use AgustaWestland EH101 (ASaC7) with Thales Searchwater 2000AEW radar. "Searchwater 1 AEW is quoted as having a maximum detection range of between 113 and 161 km when focused on a 7 m² radar cross-section target at an operating altitude of 3,408 m." (
http://articles.janes.com/articles/...ircraft/Searchwater-1-AEW-United-Kingdom.html NB: dead link by now.) According to The Naval Institute Guide to World Naval Weapon Systems (2006) by Norman Friedman, the Searchwater 2000 gets 30% to 40% more range. At 30%, the range would be 147km to 209km. Ka-31's E-801 radar can detect fighter targets at 150-200km. Not only could heliborne AEW operate at altitude, but if necessary it could also operate forward of the surface vessel(s) e.g. if radar range is insufficient otherwise.

What one CAN do is in principal unlimited. But you put forward a specific scenario and when I address that scenario, you alter it. First, we went from 1 combat aircraft to saturation attack by several aircraft and now you go to repeat attacks (which is not the same as a saturation attack at all)

I didn't make calculations for a saturation attack. I did at some point (not in this thread) point out that a saturation attack is typically against a surface group (with dedicated - long range - AAW assets and other ships, it is much less likely against a single ship, unless this is e.g a vital asset e.g. the dedicated long range AAW asset of a group).

You can disregarda mental exercise as 'just calculation' but just because you haven't heard or read of 'real life simulations of 2+ AShM at same target at same time' doesn't mean they don't exist. Besides, what exactly is a 'real life simulation' anyway? It is either a simulation (i.e. a set of calculations, reflecting assumptions and one or more scenario's) or it is a life fire exercise.

I did not bring up the relative values of ships and missiles, someone else did that, but I did clarify a bit on that issue, as the assumption that missiles are cheap and ships expensive needed some nuancing: top of the line missiles aren't as cheap as assumed, not all ships cost hundreds of millions, and if missiles are delivered by various platforms, that platform may come at risk and that too can involve costs (e.g. if an attacking Mig-29K is shot down before or after launch of a missile, than that adds several tenths of millions to the monetary cost of the attack, which is much more than the cost of one or more missiles. Not to mention if a pilot is killed: add the cost of training that pilot and/or his replacement ). So, a cost calculation needs to be case-by-case, based on actual events. You could do this for individual attacks on ships or cumulative for a campaign (e.g. Falklands > how many / which ships lost versus cost of missiles expended, of aircraft lost and of training of pilots lost in the proces)