Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[syed_yusuf]

PN is no longer having hope in OHP's simply given the nature of relationship between the US and Pakistan and specially the new US admin. PN is looking for other options which a few on the table in regards to with China & Turkey only.

what about Italian Maestrale class frigates, a good stop gap with upgrades.

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin @Tank131

I think the MILGEM Ada can handle at least two Sylver A43 sets (i.e. 16 cells). Adjacent placing (of each set) might preclude the need to push the main gun up. We might be able to take it to 32 cells if the gun is moved up the bow by 2-3 metres.

It may indeed fit, but may need to be in a V-pattern with each 8 cell group tracing the bridge structure (8 slanted on Left and 8 cells on right). Not sure how it would affect the balance of the ship, if it would be too front heavy. The other issu is that you would lose 1 deck level below the VLS. So what was there? Where can it be moved? Thats one of the advantages of simply stretching the ship. You gain deck space below too.

Vertical Missile Launcher Sylver
Model Length Width Height Weight
A-35 2.6 meter 2.3 meter 3.5 meter 7 ton
A-43 2.6 meter 2.3 meter 4.3 meter 7.5 ton
A-50 2.6 meter 2.3 meter 5.0 meter 8 ton
A-70 2.6 meter 2.3 meter 7.0 meter 12 ton

The deck footprint of all Sylver 8-cell versions is 2.6m x 2.3m. So, critical factors are a) available below deck depth in relation to launcher height, and b) empty and loaded weight in relation to center of gravity and stability.

What missiles are available?

Why A43: 3.5m tall A35 can handle VT1 (CLOS - via radar or laser beam riding), Mica VL (IRH or ARH), CAMM (ARH) and Umkhonto (IRH). Possibly IRIS-T SL (IRH). Except for VT1, these are all homing missiles, which eliminates the need for guidance or illumination radar(s). VT-1 requires mounting of one or more radar/eo director(s). Only VT-1 can be quadpacked, not the others.
If the 4.3m tall A43: Besides the above, technically feasible missiles include the single packed Aster 15 (active RFH).
http://fr.dcnsgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/FP_SMA_Sylver_GB_DEF.pdf

For mk41, the obvious alternative candidates are ESSM, and maybe CAMM. Both quadpacked. Mk 48 takes single VL Sea Sparrow and single or duo-packed ESSM. However, Sea Sparrow and ESSM would required CWI (Continuous Wave Illumination) capability on the vessel e.g. Sting, Stir, Apar, CeaMount or equivalent radar(s). So, you're not there with just the launcher.

Realistically, what is the likelihood that any of these can actually be acquired?

Personally, I'ld look at an A35 left and right of the hangar, or two on one side with none on the other.

Sylver A35 and Mica VL on the Greek project (©: DCNS)

The anti-aircraft FREMM project studied for Greece envisages such fitting, on the side port side of the hangar helicopter, six quadruple launchers Sylver A35 which can launch 24 VL Mica.

http://www.network54.com/Search/view/211833/1255432990/Frigates:+The+point+on+the+future+FREDA+Frigate+of+family+FREMM?term=financial&page=15840

http:// forum . keypublishing . com /showthread.php?77172-The-FREMM-thread&p=1248254#post1248254

A35 appears to be available in blocks of 4 (rather than 8) cells...

"Destiné à accueillir les missiles à courte portée de moins de 3.5 mètres... D'une longueur d'environ 4 mètres, chaque lanceur dispose de 4 silos, contre 8 pour les Sylver A43 et A50, abritant des missiles Aster 15 et Aster 30."
=
"Designed to accommodate short-range missiles of less than 3.5 meters ... Each launcher has a length of about 4 meters and has 4 silos, compared to 8 for the Sylver A43 and A50, with Aster 15 and Aster 30 missiles."

http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/dcns-succes-du-premier-tir-pour-le-lanceur-sylver-a35

Besdies Sylver A35 the is also the so-called "Conteneur Lanceur Autonome (CLA)" i.e. "Autonomous Container Launcher (ACL)", developed by the European missileer (MBDA).
http://www.defaiya.com/news/International News/Europe/2009/07/17/mbda-demonstrates-vl-mica-in-a-coastal-defence-role

Conteneur CLA (© : MBDA)
http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/nouveau-tir-pour-le-missile-vl-mica

See Fincantieri Mosaic light frigate proposal (rear)

The VL-MICA vertical launch system seen here in a 12 cell configuration.
Source : MBDA

http://daisetsuzan.blogspot.nl/2015/07/bigger-meaner-and-leaner-singapores.html

 

[Penguin]

Vertical Missile Launcher Mk 56 GMVLS
# of missiles =4 =12 =32 launch controller (1 per 16 missiles)
Width (cm) 173 366 477 94
Depth (cm) 132 271 417 34
Height (cm) 465 465 465 190
Weight (kg) w/missiles 3,464 10,200 23,859 -
weight (kg) w/below deck launch controller 3,714 10,450 24,359 250

Mk56 VLS (mk48 follow-on)
http://wikivisually.com/wiki/RIM-162_ESSM

I figure, this would be about 1.6m x 2.3m

 

[Tank131]

@Penguin why would CAMM not be able to quad pack in a A43? It can quad-pack an A50 and the difference is length. Its dimensions are not too profoundly different from VT-1

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Don't expect anything good for Pak from nawaz

To his 'credit' Nawaz Sharif did ink the contracts for HQ-16 SAM, PN Fleet Tanker, S26 submarines and AH-1Z. It is also been under his government that Pakistan has been able to negotiate with Turkey for MILGEM and T-129. The government isn't great, but the ball gets to move a little at least, whereas with Nawaz's predecessors, the ball gets deflated.

It may indeed fit, but may need to be in a V-pattern with each 8 cell group tracing the bridge structure (8 slanted on Left and 8 cells on right). Not sure how it would affect the balance of the ship, if it would be too front heavy. The other issu is that you would lose 1 deck level below the VLS. So what was there? Where can it be moved? Thats one of the advantages of simply stretching the ship. You gain deck space below too.

I don't think placing it in slant is necessary. Between the edge of the bridge area and the gun, I would wager that there is enough space for a 2.6 m clearance. It should fit normally. Worst case scenario, they could split the unit into two sets of eight cells, and then place a set on the right and on the left of the bridge area (see this I-Class mock-up). As for deck space, they will probably need to elevate the VLS into a mini-deck.

Vertical Missile Launcher Sylver
Model Length Width Height Weight
A-35 2.6 meter 2.3 meter 3.5 meter 7 ton
A-43 2.6 meter 2.3 meter 4.3 meter 7.5 ton
A-50 2.6 meter 2.3 meter 5.0 meter 8 ton
A-70 2.6 meter 2.3 meter 7.0 meter 12 ton

The deck footprint of all Sylver 8-cell versions is 2.6m x 2.3m. So, critical factors are a) available below deck depth in relation to launcher height, and b) empty and loaded weight in relation to center of gravity and stability.

What missiles are available?

Why A43: 3.5m tall A35 can handle VT1 (CLOS - via radar or laser beam riding), Mica VL (IRH or ARH), CAMM (ARH) and Umkhonto (IRH). Possibly IRIS-T SL (IRH). Except for VT1, these are all homing missiles, which eliminates the need for guidance or illumination radar(s). VT-1 requires mounting of one or more radar/eo director(s). Only VT-1 can be quadpacked, not the others.
If the 4.3m tall A43: Besides the above, technically feasible missiles include the single packed Aster 15 (active RFH).
http://fr.dcnsgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/FP_SMA_Sylver_GB_DEF.pdf

For mk41, the obvious alternative candidates are ESSM, and maybe CAMM. Both quadpacked. Mk 48 takes single VL Sea Sparrow and single or duo-packed ESSM. However, Sea Sparrow and ESSM would required CWI (Continuous Wave Illumination) capability on the vessel e.g. Sting, Stir, Apar, CeaMount or equivalent radar(s). So, you're not there with just the launcher.

Realistically, what is the likelihood that any of these can actually be acquired?

Personally, I'ld look at an A35 left and right of the hangar, or two on one side with none on the other.

Sylver A35 and Mica VL on the Greek project (©: DCNS)

The anti-aircraft FREMM project studied for Greece envisages such fitting, on the side port side of the hangar helicopter, six quadruple launchers Sylver A35 which can launch 24 VL Mica.

http://www.network54.com/Search/view/211833/1255432990/Frigates:+The+point+on+the+future+FREDA+Frigate+of+family+FREMM?term=financial&page=15840

http:// forum . keypublishing . com /showthread.php?77172-The-FREMM-thread&p=1248254#post1248254

A35 appears to be available in blocks of 4 (rather than 8) cells...

"Destiné à accueillir les missiles à courte portée de moins de 3.5 mètres... D'une longueur d'environ 4 mètres, chaque lanceur dispose de 4 silos, contre 8 pour les Sylver A43 et A50, abritant des missiles Aster 15 et Aster 30."
=
"Designed to accommodate short-range missiles of less than 3.5 meters ... Each launcher has a length of about 4 meters and has 4 silos, compared to 8 for the Sylver A43 and A50, with Aster 15 and Aster 30 missiles."

http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/dcns-succes-du-premier-tir-pour-le-lanceur-sylver-a35

Besdies Sylver A35 the is also the so-called "Conteneur Lanceur Autonome (CLA)" i.e. "Autonomous Container Launcher (ACL)", developed by the European missileer (MBDA).
http://www.defaiya.com/news/International News/Europe/2009/07/17/mbda-demonstrates-vl-mica-in-a-coastal-defence-role

Conteneur CLA (© : MBDA)
http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/nouveau-tir-pour-le-missile-vl-mica

See Fincantieri Mosaic light frigate proposal (rear)

The VL-MICA vertical launch system seen here in a 12 cell configuration.
Source : MBDA

http://daisetsuzan.blogspot.nl/2015/07/bigger-meaner-and-leaner-singapores.html

I think the options would boil down to the Umkhonto and CAMM. That said, I wouldn't mind the Umkhonto EIR (35 km), but that might necessitate a deeper VLS in the Sylver A43.

 

[Tank131]

Umkhonto: length (3.32m), diameter (0.18m), weight (130kg), Range: 20km (will be increased to 35km with EIR variant)
CAMM length (3.2m), diameter (0.166m), weight (99kg) Range: 25km+ (per Janes, has been tested successfully out to 60km), **Quadpackable
VT-1: length (2.3m), diameter (0.165m), weight (76 kg), Range 11km, **Quadpackable
MICA-VL: length (3.1m), diameter (0.160m), weight (112kg), Range: 20km
Aster 15: length (4.2m), diameter (0.180m), weight (310kg), Range: 30km +
KM-SAM: length (4.6m), diameter (0.270m), weight (400kg), Range: 40km **Quadpackable

I dont think given the range of VT-1 and the fact that it is Semi-Active, that it would offer any benefit over 9km FL-3000N. Aster and KM-SAM would need at least A50 or Mk-41 (5.3m self defense module). I think CAMM is still the most reasonable option for any VLS system in PN and if possible, backed by FL-3000N.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Umkhonto: length (3.32m), diameter (0.18m), weight (130kg), Range: 20km (will be increased to 35km with EIR variant)
CAMM length (3.2m), diameter (0.166m), weight (99kg) Range: 25km+ (per Janes, has been tested successfully out to 60km), **Quadpackable
VT-1: length (2.3m), diameter (0.165m), weight (76 kg), Range 11km, **Quadpackable
MICA-VL: length (3.1m), diameter (0.160m), weight (112kg), Range: 20km
Aster 15: length (4.2m), diameter (0.180m), weight (310kg), Range: 30km +
KM-SAM: length (4.6m), diameter (0.270m), weight (400kg), Range: 40km **Quadpackable

I dont think given the range of VT-1 and the fact that it is Semi-Active, that it would offer any benefit over 9km FL-3000N. Aster and KM-SAM would need at least A50 or Mk-41 (5.3m self defense module). I think CAMM is still the most reasonable option for any VLS system in PN and if possible, backed by FL-3000N.

Ideal would be the MBDA CAMM or the KM-SAM. The back-up (if CAMM and KM-SAM are unavailable or inaccessible) should be the Umkhonto EIR. But with the Umkhonto EIR, we should get it with technology transfer and collaborative development for the Marlin (or 60 km Umkhonto R).

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin why would CAMM not be able to quad pack in a A43? It can quad-pack an A50 and the difference is length. Its dimensions are not too profoundly different from VT-1

I'm looking at the willingness to sell. If you open the Sylver promotional PDF, it shows only VT-1 as quad-packed.
http://fr.dcnsgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/FP_SMA_Sylver_GB_DEF.pdf

[Begin Edit]
I've looked up CAMM on the MBDA website and here is says:
"Sea Ceptor can operate from the SYLVER and Mk41 launchers using a quad-pack configuration to maximise packing density and for optimum installation on smaller ships."
http://www.mbda-systems.com/product/camm-sea/

CAMM main dimensions are 99kg, 3.2 m long, missile diameter 166mm but span (width over fins) is not given. This compares to 112kg, length 3.1m and diameter 160mm for VL MICA. These dimension suggests MICA could also be quadpacket.

CAMM-ER weighs 160kg, is 4.2m long and has a max diameter of 190mm (i.e. has booster stage). Canister: 440 x 27.5 x 27.5 cm.

IRIS-T weighs 87.4 kg and measures 2.9 m, with a diameter of 127mm.

Umkhonto weighs 130 kg and measures 3.32 m with a diameter of 180 mm

I have no dimensions for HISAR-A or -O or for the South Korean SAM
[/end edit]

 

[ghazi768]

I will say that the notion that they are not adapting to the times is scary. The idea that everthing is antiship interdiction is a frightening dereliction of duty when you consider that INs main AShM is a 300km hypersonic missile which none of your ships will be able to intercept given the longest range missile is 15km. Add to this the fact that the IN will soon field 2 carriers with Mig-29 and you are in for a world of hurt. A chinese solution or the Istanbul class would be a far better choice. I tell you, write it down now, if Ada class is selected it is a treasonous dereliction of duty to the service and a criminal waste of $500m amd someone has recieved a massive kickback. Think about this, the major thing keeping PN afloat now is A90b subs and they werr a massive kickback scheme. This will be far worse. At least those have been useful.

Lets say INs main AshM is a 300km hypersonic missile and you have a 350km + 50 km long and medium ranged SAMs packed guided missile destroyer. How will you defend and avoid a Mig-29k/Su-30 which approaches at 10,000 ft and tries to offload its payload at 300 km away?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Lets say INs main AshM is a 300km hypersonic missile and you have a 350km + 50 km long and medium ranged SAMs packed guided missile destroyer. How will you defend and avoid a Mig-29k/Su-30 which approaches at 10,000 ft and tries to offload its payload at 300 km away?

Your PDMS and MR-SAM would try intercepting those missiles and force that MiG-29K/Su-30 to come closer, or stay away.

 

[Surya 1]

Frigates???

i think it's gonna be ADA Class Corvette

Ship looks nice.

 

[ghazi768]

Your PDMS and MR-SAM would try intercepting those missiles and force that MiG-29K/Su-30 to come closer, or stay away.

hmm.. how your MR-SAM will intercept those missiles, they will already be skimming by that time, and how many your point defence will intercept before it gets saturated?

My point was basically that you guys are advising a wrong medicine.. guided missile destroyers/frigates are for battle group defence.. battle groups which also include carriers.. carriers which provide the the crucial 200-250km CAP, which with BVR can fly high, which your opponents cannot afford..

Send a battle group, without air support, with whatever number of guided missile destroyers you are happy with.. and than have the agony or enjoyment of watching the slaughter..

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

hmm.. how your MR-SAM will intercept those missiles, they will already be skimming by that time, and how many your point defence will intercept before it gets saturated?

My point was basically that you guys are advising a wrong medicine.. guided missile destroyers/frigates are for battle group defence.. battle groups which also include carriers.. carriers which provide the the crucial 200-250km CAP, which with BVR can fly high, which your opponents cannot afford..

Send a battle group, without air support, with whatever number of guided missile destroyers you are happy with.. and than have the agony or enjoyment of watching the slaughter..

The FL-3000N provides 24 cells' worth of PDMS. The VLS with MR-SAM could have anywhere from 8 to 32 missiles, potentially more if you have a frigate. That single ship would have to be a target of a remarkably massive AShM assault from quite a few MiG-29s and Su-30s. This also assumes that there is nothing else happening in the area with regards to other surface warships, submarines or combat aircraft (on both sides).

 

[Gryphon]

If Pakistan buys 4 MILGEM Ada Class Corvette's, can those have VLS capable MR-SAM's ???

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

If Pakistan buys 4 MILGEM Ada Class Corvette's, can those have VLS capable MR-SAM's ???

We have been discussing this over the past 2-3 pages.