Pakistan Has Settled All Scores With India

[Wood]

Musharraf offered to recognise the LOC as the border but this was actually refused by India - there was some back channels talks with M Singh.

The Indian narrative is that General Musharraf was not able to realize this idea from the Pakistani side. I'm sure that you will not agree to this.

On May 2 last, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh revealed “Gen Musharraf and I had nearly reached an agreement, a non-territorial solution to all problems but then Gen Musharraf got into many difficulties with the chief justice and other forces and therefore the whole process came to a halt”

The four-point formula

THE spokesman of the United Jihad Council (UJC) Syed Sadaqat Hussein`s belated attack on June 28 on the four-point...

www.dawn.com

 

[MultaniGuy]

Great what about other achievements ??? What about pakistani economy ??? Has pakistan been to space?? Does pakistan have the success that Indians are achieveing worldwide??

The only thing India and Pakistan have achieved parity on is making our people suffer pain due to losses.

You sound like an Indian.
India is not a superpower as you make out to be. In fact it is super poor.

Pakistan has settled all of its scores with India - Refute me if but the below are facts.

India

1947/1948
In the first 1947/48 war Pakistan captured over 86,268 sq Km of territory - this is an area larger than the European country of Austria.

Whilst India will argue it controls the Kashmir Valley and the more fertile area, the fact remains that Pakistan's gains in that war gave it a border with China and denied India a border with Afghanistan, not just that the enduring benefit that this territory is providing Pakistan and China in terms of CPEC, not to mention it gained K2 and the majority of the 8000m peaks in the world, therefore the more strategic part of Kashmir was gained by Pakistan.

1965
India failed to use its numerical superiority to win after crossing the international boundary - It was a stalemate but ofcourse given the David and Goliath nature of the battle fighting India to a stalement and denying it victory is a huge achievement. India has failed in every single war to capture Lahore which given it is barely 17 KM from the international border shows the utter failure of Indian forces, I am sure they would like to have captured Lahore to use it as a bargaining power given it is the second largest city of Pakistan.

1971
We lost this war - But we forget that we played a role in the partition of India and divided them first in 1947. The land of Pakistan was carved out of the womb of mother India with the British being an eager midwife. So if any Indian likes to remind us of the 1971 war - we must ofcourse remind them of the partition of 1947.

Infact, the Indian Army, Navy, Airforce itself was partitioned, so if they say 90000 POW, We must remind them of the 140,000 men of the India army that went to Pakistan as a result of the partition of India without a shot fired. Indian army has failed since 1947 to undo its own partition and the partition of its motherland.

1984
India captured some part of the Siachen glacier - but we also control an area of the glacier, More Indians have died on the glazier and will continue to die due to harsh weather, not to mention the cost involved for them to maintain forces, so it has and will continue to be a thorn on the side of Indians.

1974/1998
We settled all nuclear tests in 1998 - One for Smiling Bhudda in 1974 and five for Pokharan - These were the actual words use by Nawaz Sharif in May 1998.

1999
Status Quo Ante Bellum - We did not loose any territory, better we ingress into Indian held areas than wait until they ingress into ours, our nuclear deterrent held.

2001
Standoff - Pakistan nuclear deterrent held, more Indian soldiers died in the mobilisation

2019
A total failure and miss by IAF - They did not need to wait long the response at Rajauri, lost a Mig 21, MI-17, 6 IAF and 1 civillian, and 1 POW.

So, We should be proud of our performance given that India is much larger, we have bloodied them repeatedly and continue to be a massive thorn.

Pakistan has since its inception punched well above its weight - India, USSR, USA etc.

But I ask any Indian reading this, Why is it the only time India fought a country of equal size namely China in 1962 it lost?

Haha, India versus China.

Please, you shouldn't flatter China like that. China would squash the Indian cow that it is.

China should not compare itself with a backward country like India is.

 

[Green Machine]

Sorry if I offend my fellow Pakistanis, but I cannot agree with this narrative.

None of the hindu majority states went to Pakistan. Only muslim majority provinces of British India were divided and Pakistan was created as a moth eaten state.

On top of this, Kashmir which was 80% muslim and specifically the valley which had more muslims than lahore and karachi by percentage is being occupied by india. Our poor leadership played a big role too.

If Kashmir was a normal province it would automatically go to Pakistan.

india amputated more than half of Pakistan, but Pakistan hasnt done so. India continues to sponsor terrorism against Pakistan while Pakistan has not returned the favor proportionally.

Our leadership and bureaucracy right from 47 on wards has been extremely incompetent and corrupt and has failed us on every aspect.

The only true silver lining is the brave foot soldiers and selfless people like the ones we saw in 47/48, when GB scouts, Tribal pashtuns, Azad forces and brave ill equipped soldiers of the new Pakistan army fought barefoot and without even guns in many cases and extended Pakistan's frontiers while our leadership was too coward to even visit them on the front lines.

This same cadre is why we have a nuclear armed set up and have given a brave reply to india; otherwise, an overwhelming majority of bureaucracy and leadership of this country is corrupt to the core.

Again, sorry for anything offensive, this is how I feel.

You are forgetting from where Pakistan was created - Namely by c-section of mother India with a British midwife in 1947.

India lost over 1 million square kilometers of territory, 100 million people.

That is alot more than East Pakistan which is only 148,000 Sq KM the size of the US state of Iowa.

So yes, I feel the partition of India in 1947 was more traumatic for Indians, than the loss of East Pakistan.

 

[MultaniGuy]

You are forgetting from where Pakistan was created - Namely by c-section of mother India with a British midwife in 1947.

India lost over 1 million square kilometers of territory, 100 million people.

That is alot more than East Pakistan which is only 148,000 Sq KM the size of the US state of Iowa.

So yes, I feel the partition of India in 1947 was more traumatic for Indians, than the loss of East Pakistan.

East Pakistan was almost impossible to govern anyways.

I glad they went their separate way.

Because to be frank there is always Afghanistan.

 

[Green Machine]

About 1948 you talk as of whole Kashmir was under Indian control you came with military defeated India and took away Kashmir part equal to size of some European country..... sorry it's not the case.....
Kashmir was separate kingdom and you invaded it seeing it's weak military and whatever distance you could cover that was because India hadn't join the fight till then..... later Kashmir king invited India and was ready to come under Indian control with special status.... later India started pushing you back when you threateningly reached near srinagar..... we would have pushed you back further if nehru didn't take the issue in UN.... please learn the facts first....

The fact remains when the ceasefire was declared Pakistan had captured an additional 86,000 Sq km of territory larger than Austria.

India was unable to take it back, infact it has been unable to take it back ever since.

There is a reason that India refers to this as "Pakistan occupied Kashmir", How did it become occupied?

East Pakistan was almost impossible to govern anyways.

I glad they went their separate way.

Because to be frank there is always Afghanistan.

Yes Bangladesh is doing well - They have surpassed both India and Pakistan economically.

It is a big slap on the face of India especially given they are they "superpower", "largest democracy" and "make in India".

Bangladesh has done in 50 years what India could not in 75!

 

[MultaniGuy]

The fact remains when the ceasefire was declared Pakistan had captured an additional 86,000 Sq km of territory larger than Austria.

India was unable to take it back, infact it has been unable to take it back ever since.

There is a reason that India refers to this as "Pakistan occupied Kashmir", How did it become occupied?


Yes Bangladesh is doing well - They have surpassed both India and Pakistan economically.

It is a big slap on the face of India especially given they are they "superpower", "largest democracy" and "make in India".

Bangladesh has done in 50 years what India could not in 75!

According to the partition plan you should tell that "Indiot" that Kashmir should have chosen either Pakistan or India and plebiscite should be held to determine the future of the land.

But Indians are cunning and dishonest. Justice will come day whether the present generation sees it or not is another matter.

The fact remains when the ceasefire was declared Pakistan had captured an additional 86,000 Sq km of territory larger than Austria.

India was unable to take it back, infact it has been unable to take it back ever since.

There is a reason that India refers to this as "Pakistan occupied Kashmir", How did it become occupied?


Yes Bangladesh is doing well - They have surpassed both India and Pakistan economically.

It is a big slap on the face of India especially given they are they "superpower", "largest democracy" and "make in India".

Bangladesh has done in 50 years what India could not in 75!

See what I believe is that, Pakistan gets stronger and stronger as the years pass by.

Pakistan is about to have a Nominal GDP of $300 billion with a population of 225 million people.
India will have to back down on Kashmir eventually.

 

[magra]

Keeping an issue alive is not failure. Post-1974, liberation of Kashmir via war was not feasible. Kashmiris are not Indians & they do not wish to live with you guys. Pakistan has kept this issue alive at every forum & that is a success not a failure. When India heads towards dissolution (a question of when, not if - given the history of the region), guess who would be the first to secede?

Pakistan crying hoarse at every forum and no one listening to it is not what can be said as keeping issue alive.
Even your traditional OIC allies support India's stand on Kashmir now. Check Saudi and UAE's statement post Art 370 withdrawal.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

1971 Loss will only be avenged at right time

 

[magra]

India was a proper basket case for major part of it's history only in 2000s did things start to improve
It needed a miracle to survive for more than 50 odd years? What crap logic is this

Imf is not a charity organization to call it a begging bowl- large receiving of aid is begging so...

Pakistan has a decent old industrial setup that up till now only served it's own country, due to lack of export orinted policies add in young population dividend that should start in couple of years, older education system, worlds top 5-10 number of IT professionals, prime real state in the map economically and geopolitically speaking, decent urban pop for devoloping countries, surely doesn't need a miracle to survive
to the contrary if done right is on the cursp of something good

Barely 15-20 years of performance with a war cannot be the judge of future when you have doing decently to good without all these plueses lining up, for a lot longer than you have done bad

My advice is just stop you have been thinking like that for so decades
But it isn't working- pakistan is a reality that is here and is fast approaching a century of existence
You have to engage with this reality, wet dreaming is not a policy

India was never a basket case. Even in 1950s and 60s, we were the leader of Non-aligned countries. I agree that our growth was slow due to ill-advised economic policies and due to the fact that we did not join US or Soviet camp, thus we got less aid than say Pakistan who sat in US's lap. From 90s though, we have been growing at tremendous pace and the gap between India & Pak is ever-increasing.

Pakistan on the other hand, has a huge current account deficit, with increasing imports and declining exports. Plus you have a huge CPEC debt which you are finding it difficult to service. You signed expensive power puchase agreements with China due to which you are suffering.

Your country is getting more radicalized as your PM is now openly supporting and cheering for the extremist Taliban. Rich western nations are now running away from you like plague and all your eggs are in the Chinese basket with no room for bargaining. You basically have to agree with whatever they feel obliged to give.

Yes, you may 'survive' to a century of existence, but not 'thrive'.
You suffer constant embarrasment from IMF when they put humiliating conditions before giving you loans. You have to allow Gulf princes to come and kill your rare birds for game, as they give you emergency loans, all while giving our PM national awards, and snubbing you at OIC.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Pakistan crying hoarse at every forum and no one listening to it is not what can be said as keeping issue alive.
Even your traditional OIC allies support India's stand on Kashmir now. Check Saudi and UAE's statement post Art 370 withdrawal.

Source of Saudi Arabia and UAE supporting India's stance?
Or did you regurgitate diarrhea here!

Pakistan on the other hand, has a huge current account deficit, with increasing imports and declining exports. Plus you have a huge CPEC debt which you are finding it difficult to service. You signed expensive power puchase agreements with China due to which you are suffering.

India was never a basket case. Even in 1950s and 60s, we were the leader of Non-aligned countries. I agree that our growth was slow due to ill-advised economic policies and due to the fact that we did not join US or Soviet camp, thus we got less aid than say Pakistan who sat in US's lap. From 90s though, we have been growing at tremendous pace and the gap between India & Pak is ever-increasing.

Pakistan on the other hand, has a huge current account deficit, with increasing imports and declining exports. Plus you have a huge CPEC debt which you are finding it difficult to service. You signed expensive power puchase agreements with China due to which you are suffering.

Your country is getting more radicalized as your PM is now openly supporting and cheering for the extremist Taliban. Rich western nations are now running away from you like plague and all your eggs are in the Chinese basket with no room for bargaining. You basically have to agree with whatever they feel obliged to give.

Yes, you may 'survive' to a century of existence, but not 'thrive'.
You suffer constant embarrasment from IMF when they put humiliating conditions before giving you loans. You have to allow Gulf princes to come and kill your rare birds for game, as they give you emergency loans, all while giving our PM national awards, and snubbing you at OIC.

Crying buckets are we now, because the Afghan Taliban is back in power. LOL!

You are talking about the Islamists in my country? Personally I am an Islamist, but I do not have any problems with the nationalists as well because all nationalists in Pakistan are Islamists.

 

[Zarvan]

Pakistan has settled all of its scores with India - Refute me if but the below are facts.

India

1947/1948
In the first 1947/48 war Pakistan captured over 86,268 sq Km of territory - this is an area larger than the European country of Austria.

Whilst India will argue it controls the Kashmir Valley and the more fertile area, the fact remains that Pakistan's gains in that war gave it a border with China and denied India a border with Afghanistan, not just that the enduring benefit that this territory is providing Pakistan and China in terms of CPEC, not to mention it gained K2 and the majority of the 8000m peaks in the world, therefore the more strategic part of Kashmir was gained by Pakistan.

1965
India failed to use its numerical superiority to win after crossing the international boundary - It was a stalemate but ofcourse given the David and Goliath nature of the battle fighting India to a stalement and denying it victory is a huge achievement. India has failed in every single war to capture Lahore which given it is barely 17 KM from the international border shows the utter failure of Indian forces, I am sure they would like to have captured Lahore to use it as a bargaining power given it is the second largest city of Pakistan.

1971
We lost this war - But we forget that we played a role in the partition of India and divided them first in 1947. The land of Pakistan was carved out of the womb of mother India with the British being an eager midwife. So if any Indian likes to remind us of the 1971 war - we must ofcourse remind them of the partition of 1947.

Infact, the Indian Army, Navy, Airforce itself was partitioned, so if they say 90000 POW, We must remind them of the 140,000 men of the India army that went to Pakistan as a result of the partition of India without a shot fired. Indian army has failed since 1947 to undo its own partition and the partition of its motherland.

1984
India captured some part of the Siachen glacier - but we also control an area of the glacier, More Indians have died on the glazier and will continue to die due to harsh weather, not to mention the cost involved for them to maintain forces, so it has and will continue to be a thorn on the side of Indians.

1974/1998
We settled all nuclear tests in 1998 - One for Smiling Bhudda in 1974 and five for Pokharan - These were the actual words use by Nawaz Sharif in May 1998.

1999
Status Quo Ante Bellum - We did not loose any territory, better we ingress into Indian held areas than wait until they ingress into ours, our nuclear deterrent held.

2001
Standoff - Pakistan nuclear deterrent held, more Indian soldiers died in the mobilisation

2019
A total failure and miss by IAF - They did not need to wait long the response at Rajauri, lost a Mig 21, MI-17, 6 IAF and 1 civillian, and 1 POW.

So, We should be proud of our performance given that India is much larger, we have bloodied them repeatedly and continue to be a massive thorn.

Pakistan has since its inception punched well above its weight - India, USSR, USA etc.

But I ask any Indian reading this, Why is it the only time India fought a country of equal size namely China in 1962 it lost?

No we haven't !!!! 1971 is the score which we need to settle and settle it with interest. We lost half of Pakistan. Until we take equal size of India the score won't be settled. And Indian Occupied Kashmir doesn't count in it. That is our own which we need to get back. The 1971 would be settled when we take area from India's mainland like Punjab or Rajasthan or Gujrat state.

 

[MultaniGuy]

No we haven't !!!! 1971 is the score which we need to settle and settle it with interest. We lost half of Pakistan. Until we take equal size of India the score won't be settled. And Indian Occupied Kashmir doesn't count in it. That is our own which we need to get back. The 1971 would be settled when we take area from India's mainland like Punjab or Rajasthan or Gujrat state.

East Pakistan is not even half of West Pakistan geographically. Ge your facts straightened out.

India was never a basket case. Even in 1950s and 60s, we were the leader of Non-aligned countries. I agree that our growth was slow due to ill-advised economic policies and due to the fact that we did not join US or Soviet camp, thus we got less aid than say Pakistan who sat in US's lap. From 90s though, we have been growing at tremendous pace and the gap between India & Pak is ever-increasing.

Pakistan on the other hand, has a huge current account deficit, with increasing imports and declining exports. Plus you have a huge CPEC debt which you are finding it difficult to service. You signed expensive power puchase agreements with China due to which you are suffering.

Your country is getting more radicalized as your PM is now openly supporting and cheering for the extremist Taliban. Rich western nations are now running away from you like plague and all your eggs are in the Chinese basket with no room for bargaining. You basically have to agree with whatever they feel obliged to give.

Yes, you may 'survive' to a century of existence, but not 'thrive'.
You suffer constant embarrasment from IMF when they put humiliating conditions before giving you loans. You have to allow Gulf princes to come and kill your rare birds for game, as they give you emergency loans, all while giving our PM national awards, and snubbing you at OIC.

Utter nonsense.
Our alliance with China is arguably stronger than our relationship is with Saudi Arabia.

Now shoo! you know nothing about Pakistan.

 

[magra]

I think that the Indian side tends to overestimate the cushion that trade volume between India and China will offer in preventing a Chinese incursion into India. I can only hope that this does not influence military preparedness on the Indian side. While India does have credible nuclear deterrence against China, the Chinese side can operate well under its nuclear threshold to engage India.
military partnership. This will mean that India cannot afford the 'strategic autonomy' that it publicly endorses.

I agree that China can still attack below the nuclear threshold, but as I said they will never be able to make significant gains as defence is always easier than attack. Even in '62, they quickly vacated Tawang area of Arunachal Pradesh after winning, as their supply lines were over-stretched and they could not hold those positions for long.

Every country that has beef with China wants to get rid of its trade deficit. But this is not possible because China produces goods at a cheaper rate (and acceptable quality) compared to most competition. This is especially true for low income countries. It means that the local industries and consumers within India will not be able to sustain an import restriction of Chinese goods for any significant length of time. The Chinese are well aware of all these problems that India has to deal with.

India should learn best practices from Vietnam who has been successful in getting some business away from China.

Until and unless India reaches at least 50% of Chinese GDP, the only salvation for Indian side is to completely align with US in an open military partnership. This will mean that India cannot afford the 'strategic autonomy' that it publicly endorses.

India is already fairly aligned with US, but we should never completely fall in US military camp. The reasons are
1. US is an unreliable military partner as seen in countless cases - Pakistan, Kurds, Afghanistan etc
2. We will lose important friends in opposite camp - Iran, Russia etc
3. Once falling in completely with US, we will lose any bargaining power with them.

I totally agree, the only solution to this issue right now is to accept LoC as international border and India signs a water treaty.

Which water treaty? We already have Indus water treaty which has been standing since decades and was not violated despite many wars.

 

[MultaniGuy]

I agree that China can still attack below the nuclear threshold, but as I said they will never be able to make significant gains as defence is always easier than attack. Even in '62, they quickly vacated Tawang area of Arunachal Pradesh after winning, as their supply lines were over-stretched and they could not hold those positions for long.


India should learn best practices from Vietnam who has been successful in getting some business away from China.


India is already fairly aligned with US, but we should never completely fall in US military camp. The reasons are
1. US is an unreliable military partner as seen in countless cases - Pakistan, Kurds, Afghanistan etc
2. We will lose important friends in opposite camp - Iran, Russia etc
3. Once falling in completely with US, we will lose any bargaining power with them.

Which water treaty? We already have Indus water treaty which has been standing since decades and was not violated despite many wars.

You know nothing about Pakistan.

Yes USA is an unreliable friend. That I agree with.

 

[magra]

You talk as if Muslims are standing with their arms stretched with love for Hindus. I mean just look at this forum and you will know. Don't take the moral high ground here. If anything, muslims hate hindus , christians and sikhs with similar intensity if not higher than vice versa.

Are you really Indian? We Indians dont talk in terms of religion in generalization. There are many Indian muslims, some of them my friends, and they dont hate other religions as you tend to believe.

Musharraf offered to recognise the LOC as the border but this was actually refused by India - there was some back channels talks with M Singh.

Any proof that India refused conversion of LOC to international border?

1962 was the first and only time India in its short history fought a country of similar size and it lost 38,000 sq km in Aksai Chin.

Aksai Chin is a remote desolate barely populated area. China had already occupied it and India was unaware, it was an intelligence failure. 1962 war started because India tried to take the area back. We lost the war and failed to take it back.

The Indian military is the only military which surrendered 134,000 troops, aircraft, warships to Pakistan in 1947 without a shot fired.

From where do you get this figure of 134 thousand troop surrender? Any proof?
In fact, Sardar Patel was ready to give you the entire J&K state if Jinnah was ready to drop the demand for Hyderabad and Junagarh. It was a strategic failure of Pakistan that now you have to satisfy yourself with just 1/3rd of J&K.