Pakistan Has Settled All Scores With India

[Wood]

India shall refrain from taking any "pangga" with China, otherwise Nehru's letters to JFK would meed to be retrieved, and redrafted, by Modi 56".

India has always tried to do so. Indian public at large does not harbor delusions of winning a war with China. However, this is not enough to guarantee against a war with China.

Indian planners will do well to think about the capabilities that China will have at its disposal in any future war with India. Then see what India can do on its own and finally arrive at the inevitable conclusions that I have.

 

[SIPRA]

India has always tried to do so. Indian public at large does not harbor delusions of winning a war with China. However, this is not enough to guarantee against a war with China.

Indian planners will do well to think about the capabilities that China will have at its disposal in any future war with India. Then see what India can do on its own and finally arrive at the inevitable conclusions that I have.

I have somewhat read on war of 1962. My readings go against, what you are saying. Rather, I see quite a close resemblance between, what was being said in Lok Sabha and Indian media, before 1962 war, and what is being said now. Yes, there is a difference. Modi is far more cautious and careful, then as Nehru was.

 

[Wood]

I have somewhat read on war of 1962. My readings go against, what you are saying. Rather, I see quite a close resemblance between, what was being said in Lok Sabha and Indian media, before 1962 war, and what is being said now. Yes, there is a difference. Modi is far more cautious and careful, then as Nehru was.

Before 1962, Indians were confident in winning a fight with China. This is not the case anymore. Indian media is raising alarm about China because it is well aware of the consequences.

Speaking of Indian cabinet at that time:

https://src-h.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/publictn/eurasia_border_review/Vol3SI/hershberg.pdf

Exemplifying these views, a Western diplomat learned that Menon, in mid-September, had privately told associates that “Indian forces in [the northeastern border] area were well prepared and in fact anxious, if given the chance, to administer sound trouncing to Chinese,” and had been authorized to act—although Menon, while sensing a “good opportunity for boosting Indian army morale,” had magnanimously vowed to “soft pedal publicity” of the assured victory so as not to make the Chinese lose face.

 

[Rollno21]

Pakistan has settled all of its scores with India - Refute me if but the below are facts.

India

1947/1948
In the first 1947/48 war Pakistan captured over 86,268 sq Km of territory - this is an area larger than the European country of Austria.

Whilst India will argue it controls the Kashmir Valley and the more fertile area, the fact remains that Pakistan's gains in that war gave it a border with China and denied India a border with Afghanistan, not just that the enduring benefit that this territory is providing Pakistan and China in terms of CPEC, not to mention it gained K2 and the majority of the 8000m peaks in the world, therefore the more strategic part of Kashmir was gained by Pakistan.

1965
India failed to use its numerical superiority to win after crossing the international boundary - It was a stalemate but ofcourse given the David and Goliath nature of the battle fighting India to a stalement and denying it victory is a huge achievement. India has failed in every single war to capture Lahore which given it is barely 17 KM from the international border shows the utter failure of Indian forces, I am sure they would like to have captured Lahore to use it as a bargaining power given it is the second largest city of Pakistan.

1971
We lost this war - But we forget that we played a role in the partition of India and divided them first in 1947. The land of Pakistan was carved out of the womb of mother India with the British being an eager midwife. So if any Indian likes to remind us of the 1971 war - we must ofcourse remind them of the partition of 1947.

Infact, the Indian Army, Navy, Airforce itself was partitioned, so if they say 90000 POW, We must remind them of the 140,000 men of the India army that went to Pakistan as a result of the partition of India without a shot fired. Indian army has failed since 1947 to undo its own partition and the partition of its motherland.

1984
India captured some part of the Siachen glacier - but we also control an area of the glacier, More Indians have died on the glazier and will continue to die due to harsh weather, not to mention the cost involved for them to maintain forces, so it has and will continue to be a thorn on the side of Indians.

1974/1998
We settled all nuclear tests in 1998 - One for Smiling Bhudda in 1974 and five for Pokharan - These were the actual words use by Nawaz Sharif in May 1998.

1999
Status Quo Ante Bellum - We did not loose any territory, better we ingress into Indian held areas than wait until they ingress into ours, our nuclear deterrent held.

2001
Standoff - Pakistan nuclear deterrent held, more Indian soldiers died in the mobilisation

2019
A total failure and miss by IAF - They did not need to wait long the response at Rajauri, lost a Mig 21, MI-17, 6 IAF and 1 civillian, and 1 POW.

So, We should be proud of our performance given that India is much larger, we have bloodied them repeatedly and continue to be a massive thorn.

Pakistan has since its inception punched well above its weight - India, USSR, USA etc.

But I ask any Indian reading this, Why is it the only time India fought a country of equal size namely China in 1962 it lost?

Its good to know it's settled by Pakistan.

We Indians would like to thank Pakistan for the kashmir we have now.
If it was not for Pakistan we would not be having any part of kashmir with us today.
Pakistan could have been a little patient and they could have had the whole kashmir.

Thanks you Pakistan once again from the deepest of our hearts for Kashmir.

 

[SIPRA]

Before 1962, Indians were confident in winning a fight with China. This is not the case anymore. Indian media is raising alarm about China because it is well aware of the consequences.

Speaking of Indian cabinet at that time:

https://src-h.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/publictn/eurasia_border_review/Vol3SI/hershberg.pdf

I believe that, what you are saying, is the understanding at the government and military level, who obviously are fully informed. But, India's media, key anchors, political & defense analysts, and, consequently, the public seem to be in quite a high mood to thrash China, and then chant "Bharat Mata ki Jay".

 

[Wood]

India's media, key anchors, political & defense analysts, and, consequently, the public seem to be in quite a high mood to thrash China, and then chant "Bharat Mata ki Jay".

Folks here in PDF follow mostly right wing media from India. The moderate voices keep at the other end keep things more realistic.

 

[SIPRA]

Folks here in PDF follow mostly right wing media from India. The moderate voices keep at the other end keep things more realistic.

The reason is that to gauge the general public sentiments and leanings of a country, one has to resort to the media, which is popular and most viewed, even if it is overly enthusiastic and inciting. One can't get it by viewing NDTV.

By that account, our dear General Bakshi is ever ready to institute simultaneous attacks on China and Pakistan.

 

[Wood]

Its good to know it's settled by Pakistan.

We Indians would like to thank Pakistan for the kashmir we have now.
If it was not for Pakistan we would not be having any part of kashmir with us today.
Pakistan could have been a little patient and they could have had the whole kashmir.

Thanks you Pakistan once again from the deepest of our hearts for Kashmir.

Your comment is funny and true, but I doubt if Indian side is better off because of Pakistan's mistake.

If the Pakistani leadership at that time had waited for a few years, then Kashmir would have started as a free country. Eventually, an Arab Spring like uprising in the country could have overthrown the Hindu monarchy in favor of Pakistan. However, this is only one of the possibilities. It could also have resulted in an independent Kashmir becoming antagonistic towards Pakistan like Afghanistan is today. Either way, India would have been better off by having a friendly neighbor (in Pakistan or Kashmir).

By forcing the hand of the Dogra king prematurely, Pakistan cast the die that has thrown the subcontinent to its current state.

 

[SIPRA]

Your comment is funny and true, but I doubt if Indian side is better off because of Pakistan's mistake.

If the Pakistani leadership at that time had waited for a few years, then Kashmir would have started as a free country. Eventually, an Arab Spring like uprising in the country could have overthrown the Hindu monarchy in favor of Pakistan. However, this is only one of the possibilities. It could also have resulted in an independent Kashmir becoming antagonistic towards Pakistan like Afghanistan is today. Either way, India would have been better off by having a friendly neighbor (in Pakistan or Kashmir).

By forcing the hand of the Dogra king prematurely, Pakistan cast the die that has thrown the subcontinent to its current state.

When, whatever has happened or is very much there, doesn't seem to be satisfactory and is unpleasant and problematic; people start doing conjectural thought experiments: "Had it been such, then ........"

Now a days, a good past time of Hindutvadi lot is to assure themselves, reiteratively, again and again, that Kashmir issue is settled, and China is on the run, in the face of valiant forces of Bharat Mata. They emphasize it so much, that it betrays, as if they don't believe it themselves.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

bitva, imf aur fatf ki fikar na karo, apni naphaydo, you are standing nanga putanga with the demise of your 3rd army core called the ana and being gang banged from the north and the west while your so called "strategic allies" turning their backs to you! ab tera kia ho ga kaliaaaa?

A query: If Pakistan has upper hand on LOC as well as interiors of Kashmir, what's the reason India has been able to retain Kashmir for 70 years?

We know we did

A query: If Pakistan has upper hand on LOC as well as interiors of Kashmir, what's the reason India has been able to retain Kashmir for 70 years?

please correct your 1999 post, there status quo changed, Pakistan did gain territory, Pakistan took over tiger hill point 5353 that india ruptured her rectum trying to get back but couldn't. It is with us to this very day.

A query: If Pakistan has upper hand on LOC as well as interiors of Kashmir, what's the reason India has been able to retain Kashmir for 70 years?

 

[MH.Yang]

For now, India is not only buying inventory of existing systems from Russia, but buying new strategic systems (eg. S 500). So India is not abandoning Russia anytime soon. Even if percentage wise we will reduce procurement from Russia, it will still be larger than what Pakistan can afford to purchase from Russia (given its smaller size and economy). So Russia cannot afford to side with Pakistan against India.


Russia did openly support India in 1971 and threatened China against intervening in BD liberation war. Also, it is in Russia's strategic interest to not let China completely overshadow Russia in its backyard.
And to the same argument you made, China is not reliant on Russian weapons anymore but India is. So it is in Russia's economic interest to supply heavy weaponry to India.


Vietnam, Phillipines, Indonesia all have some claims over SCS which conflicts with China. The only reason they are not openly against China is because of the huge trade dependency.
India can get most of the US tech through joint collaboration on the same lines as India has with Russia (Brahmos). There is no need to completely fall in US hands.

At the critical moment, if US decides not to support India against China (to avoid world war or to not harm US interests), then India would not have a fall back option since India would have severed ties with Russia, Iran etc by falling into US camp.

I find that Indians don't know much about ASEAN. China does have disputes in the South China Sea with five countries: Vietnam, the Philippines, Brunei, Malaysia and Indonesia. Among them, China and Indonesia do not dispute islands, but only a small fishing area. Secondly, China has good relations with Malaysia and Brunei. After duterte took office, relations between China and the Philippines were also very good. Therefore, although there are disputed islands, Chinese warships never intercept fishing boats from Malaysia, Brunei and the Philippines. In fact, China only targets Vietnam in the South China Sea.
Third, the public enemy in the South China Sea is not China, but Vietnam. China, Malaysia, the Philippines, Indonesia, Brunei all have had fierce conflicts in the South China Sea with Vietnam. Vietnamese warships run away when they see Chinese warships and collide when they see fishing boats from other countries.
Don't think the Vietnamese will help India or USA deal with China. The Vietcong knows one thing very well that China and USA compete, if China wins, Vietnam is bound to become rich, if USA wins, the Vietnamese Communist regime will be overthrown by USA. Therefore, the Vietnamese only want the assistance of USA and will not do anything for USA. If there is a real conflict between China and USA, Vietnam has a higher chance to choose to help China.

 

[Titanium100]

A query: If Pakistan has upper hand on LOC as well as interiors of Kashmir, what's the reason India has been able to retain Kashmir for 70 years?

A query: If Pakistan has upper hand on LOC as well as interiors of Kashmir, what's the reason India has been able to retain Kashmir for 70 years?

A query: If Pakistan has upper hand on LOC as well as interiors of Kashmir, what's the reason India has been able to retain Kashmir for 70 years?

You have been repeating the same thing while pretending the elephant in the room is nonexistent..

1. All of Kashmir was Indian territory as per partition and Pakistan went in to get half of it militarily which they by the way succeeded in doing.

2. Contrary to your belief Pakistan didn't lose an inch to India but gained Azad Kashmir, and gilgat baltistan which was technically Indian territories according to the partition lines.

So your query is self-contradiction you lost territories on paper in Kashmir and didn't gained an inch

 

[blueazure]

Pakistan has settled all of its scores with India - Refute me if but the below are facts.

India

1947/1948
In the first 1947/48 war Pakistan captured over 86,268 sq Km of territory - this is an area larger than the European country of Austria.

Whilst India will argue it controls the Kashmir Valley and the more fertile area, the fact remains that Pakistan's gains in that war gave it a border with China and denied India a border with Afghanistan, not just that the enduring benefit that this territory is providing Pakistan and China in terms of CPEC, not to mention it gained K2 and the majority of the 8000m peaks in the world, therefore the more strategic part of Kashmir was gained by Pakistan.

1965
India failed to use its numerical superiority to win after crossing the international boundary - It was a stalemate but ofcourse given the David and Goliath nature of the battle fighting India to a stalement and denying it victory is a huge achievement. India has failed in every single war to capture Lahore which given it is barely 17 KM from the international border shows the utter failure of Indian forces, I am sure they would like to have captured Lahore to use it as a bargaining power given it is the second largest city of Pakistan.

1971
We lost this war - But we forget that we played a role in the partition of India and divided them first in 1947. The land of Pakistan was carved out of the womb of mother India with the British being an eager midwife. So if any Indian likes to remind us of the 1971 war - we must ofcourse remind them of the partition of 1947.

Infact, the Indian Army, Navy, Airforce itself was partitioned, so if they say 90000 POW, We must remind them of the 140,000 men of the India army that went to Pakistan as a result of the partition of India without a shot fired. Indian army has failed since 1947 to undo its own partition and the partition of its motherland.

1984
India captured some part of the Siachen glacier - but we also control an area of the glacier, More Indians have died on the glazier and will continue to die due to harsh weather, not to mention the cost involved for them to maintain forces, so it has and will continue to be a thorn on the side of Indians.

1974/1998
We settled all nuclear tests in 1998 - One for Smiling Bhudda in 1974 and five for Pokharan - These were the actual words use by Nawaz Sharif in May 1998.

1999
Status Quo Ante Bellum - We did not loose any territory, better we ingress into Indian held areas than wait until they ingress into ours, our nuclear deterrent held.

2001
Standoff - Pakistan nuclear deterrent held, more Indian soldiers died in the mobilisation

2019
A total failure and miss by IAF - They did not need to wait long the response at Rajauri, lost a Mig 21, MI-17, 6 IAF and 1 civillian, and 1 POW.

So, We should be proud of our performance given that India is much larger, we have bloodied them repeatedly and continue to be a massive thorn.

Pakistan has since its inception punched well above its weight - India, USSR, USA etc.

But I ask any Indian reading this, Why is it the only time India fought a country of equal size namely China in 1962 it lost?

1965 -

barki front - lahore

major aziz bhatti holds 2 entire IA brigades + tanks with just 2 companies ( barely ) .

equipped with RRs and a few field guns, entire indian armored brigade was held and never crossed BRB

-----------------------------

1971

sulemanki Head - okara

major shabbir shareef, having barely a few sections held off entire IA sikh regiment who didnt even manage to capture canal head ( 700 m inside **** territory)


---------------------

i can give 10 other examples

 

[GumNaam]

A query: If Pakistan has upper hand on LOC as well as interiors of Kashmir, what's the reason India has been able to retain Kashmir for 70 years?

A query: If Pakistan has upper hand on LOC as well as interiors of Kashmir, what's the reason India has been able to retain Kashmir for 70 years?

A query: If Pakistan has upper hand on LOC as well as interiors of Kashmir, what's the reason India has been able to retain Kashmir for 70 years?

simple answer, not because of you. the two super powers wanted to keep the status quo where neither Pakistan nor india could make any difference. but now there's a 3rd super power on the block that is ruining the status quo.

 

[HAIDER]

Pakistan has settled all of its scores with India - Refute me if but the below are facts.

India

1947/1948
In the first 1947/48 war Pakistan captured over 86,268 sq Km of territory - this is an area larger than the European country of Austria.

Whilst India will argue it controls the Kashmir Valley and the more fertile area, the fact remains that Pakistan's gains in that war gave it a border with China and denied India a border with Afghanistan, not just that the enduring benefit that this territory is providing Pakistan and China in terms of CPEC, not to mention it gained K2 and the majority of the 8000m peaks in the world, therefore the more strategic part of Kashmir was gained by Pakistan.

1965
India failed to use its numerical superiority to win after crossing the international boundary - It was a stalemate but ofcourse given the David and Goliath nature of the battle fighting India to a stalement and denying it victory is a huge achievement. India has failed in every single war to capture Lahore which given it is barely 17 KM from the international border shows the utter failure of Indian forces, I am sure they would like to have captured Lahore to use it as a bargaining power given it is the second largest city of Pakistan.

1971
We lost this war - But we forget that we played a role in the partition of India and divided them first in 1947. The land of Pakistan was carved out of the womb of mother India with the British being an eager midwife. So if any Indian likes to remind us of the 1971 war - we must ofcourse remind them of the partition of 1947.

Infact, the Indian Army, Navy, Airforce itself was partitioned, so if they say 90000 POW, We must remind them of the 140,000 men of the India army that went to Pakistan as a result of the partition of India without a shot fired. Indian army has failed since 1947 to undo its own partition and the partition of its motherland.

1984
India captured some part of the Siachen glacier - but we also control an area of the glacier, More Indians have died on the glazier and will continue to die due to harsh weather, not to mention the cost involved for them to maintain forces, so it has and will continue to be a thorn on the side of Indians.

1974/1998
We settled all nuclear tests in 1998 - One for Smiling Bhudda in 1974 and five for Pokharan - These were the actual words use by Nawaz Sharif in May 1998.

1999
Status Quo Ante Bellum - We did not loose any territory, better we ingress into Indian held areas than wait until they ingress into ours, our nuclear deterrent held.

2001
Standoff - Pakistan nuclear deterrent held, more Indian soldiers died in the mobilisation

2019
A total failure and miss by IAF - They did not need to wait long the response at Rajauri, lost a Mig 21, MI-17, 6 IAF and 1 civillian, and 1 POW.

So, We should be proud of our performance given that India is much larger, we have bloodied them repeatedly and continue to be a massive thorn.

Pakistan has since its inception punched well above its weight - India, USSR, USA etc.

But I ask any Indian reading this, Why is it the only time India fought a country of equal size namely China in 1962 it lost?

The score will be settled the day Pak gets back Kashmir.