Pakistan First ! The case for Pakistani Nationalism.

[Moriro]

We are Pakistan's First ....

It is necessary now as never before to emphasize our identity.

We are Pakistanis, dwellers of Sindh, Baluchistan, KPK, Gilgit, Baltistan, Punjab and Azad Kashmir. We are defined by a common cultural thread of Saraiki linking our provinces and our peoples.
Ours is an ancient culture going back to the dawn of civilization established in the Indus River Valley 5400 years ago. We have evolved over the centuries absorbing other cultures and religions.

Over the last 50 years our cultural and national identity has been transformed and redefined.
We are redefining our cultural traditions to as they were centuries back with deep roots to Central Asia and the Middle East. In dress, language, and cuisine we are now different than we were 50 years back. Few nations in the world have culturally transformed so rapidly.

To further redefine it is necessary to emphasize who we are NOT...
Pakistanis are Not :

1. "Indian" Muslims - We are not part of "India", and yes a majority of our
population is Muslim, but religion is not the only defining feature of our national
identity.
We have no connection with the Muslim population of "India" as defined by its
territory today.

2. "West" Pakistanis - There is no "East" or "West" Pakistan but simply Pakistan.


3. "South" Asians- Pakistanis are Asians and our population similarity is with West or Central
Asia.

What do PDF members think?

Are the other South Asian populations at all relevant to us?

I don't know why we are trying to force our preceptions on others, that is how few of us turning blind to reality.
Point one... Pakistan only existed after 1947, So what we were before 1947? The history reminds us that the muslim of sub-continent are connected with the chains of history, you cannot remove it.
2nd & 3rd, Pakistan is a multiethnic country also shares common features with the regions other then south asia, asia itself is way more diverse then europe that the europeon theology of being european won't work here, so let them be what they are. Our ethnic groups feel pride in their ethnic history and even at some occasion they prefer it on nationalism, So you simply cannot say anyone to forget what they are for the sake of national integrity. It simply wont work.

 

[VikingRaider]

every Arab, Iranian and even Afghan is allowed to have a nationalistic identity but Pakistani is not allowed. he cant even openly declare it out of fear from Ummah brigade. unless if you pickup arms , divorce the religion and curse all other ethnicity you never get the legitimacy or attention.

as long as Iranians and Saudis will keep funding our religious thugs they will never allow Pakistani nationalism. Arabs even laugh and question our faith saying how can a non Arab speaking can be a true Muslim and be their equal? Iranians consider every non Iranian below them.

I know its over simplification since there is xenophobia, hatred and suspicion among the different ethnicities as well that has prevented a strong Federation ideology. case in point, the speech by Mehmood Achakzai (in Urdu) declaring that Urdu is imposed and is not our language, this is a contested territory where one extreme view of plush elitist picks up a coffee cup and puts the entire blame on our military establishment while another extreme puts entirely on our political system and lack of leadership.
truth is somewhere in the middle.
everyone (Mullah , Military, Politician) has contributed in keeping us confused and rudderless nation.

summary?

we are dependent (on scrapes from others), leaderless (in morality, competence and wisdom) and lack confidence (domestically and internationally) to be taken seriously and to bring up Nationalism as a unifying force and its all hollow as well in the presence of our challenges that our citizens face everyday.

Unfortunately same goes for Bangladesh too . If someone believe in Bangladeshi/Bengali nationalistic Identity then many people ( Ummah brigade ) get offended, and start name calling!

 

[Baibars_1260]

Unfortunately same goes for Bangladesh too . If someone believe in Bangladeshi/Bengali nationalistic Identity then many people ( Ummah brigade ) get offended!

No one is offended over Bangladeshi identity. You found your real identity in 1971 and so did we.

We are two separate nations, with nothing in common except faith ( a drum which the "Ummah" brigade like to beat).

I support Bengali culture and Bangladeshi identity. But that's it ! So move on please. We are discussing modern Pakistani identity which doesn't concern Bangladesh the least bit.

So please move on

 

[peagle]

Yaar they chose ethnic nationalism over faith and unity and you are saying we shouldn't?????

How can Bengali complain about Pakistani nationalist hatred of them when they went down the path of ethnocentric nationalism first

I am saying, that it is never a one side or the other,
It always tends to be the confluence of various factors that make an identity, by rejecting one or the other, you weaken your foundations.

We have a unique heritage and link to Indus Valley Civilisation, it is in our DNA - fact
We are South Asian, also a fact
We lived as a nation with the Bengalis, fact
We have a Muslim heritage with strong Islamic identity, fact
We are culturally similar to South Asian Muslims, fact
We have historical, linguistic, religious heritage from West and Central Asians, fact

All of the above, and more are factual statements, it does not weaken us by recognising them for what the are, rather it strengthens us, as a nation.

Being Pakistani is the effect of that shared past,
A unique history of our own, but also shared experiences with our neighbours, no man is an island as they say. Everyone in every corner of the world is influenced by their neighbours, as have we. Accept it and adopt it to our sense of nationhood and move on.

We were here before the Indians, Afghan or the Iranians, they claim their past, we have failed so far.
Because we have not reconciled with our past, we keep search for answers, to me it seems silly.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Our ethnic groups feel pride in their ethnic history and even at some occasion they prefer it on nationalism, So you simply cannot say anyone to forget what they are for the sake of national integrity. It simply wont work.

One of our post 1947 -constituent entities seceded on the basis of "ethnic pride". Their history begins from 1971. They have forgotten who they were before 1971. Populations transform over political events. The. Irish seceded from Great Britain and don't consider themselves Englishmen and they only study that portion of English history that concerns them. Pakistan is transforming rapidly towards a distinct national identity which is loosening its historical and cultural bonds to its former parent political entity.

 

[VikingRaider]

No one is offended over Bangladeshi identity. You found your real identity in 1971 and so did we.

There is a saying in Bangla and that is , "Thakur ghare kere , ami to kola khaini " ,English proverb is , A guilty mind is always suspicious!

While I have not mentioned any name , still you have taken the word directly to you ?

We are two separate nations, with nothing in common except faith ( a drum which the "Ummah" brigade like to beat).

Indeed we are separate nation , we have only common and it's religion , and I know that two nation theory is not a Pakistani concept , but it was a Bangladeshi concept and Pakistanis failed it ! Besides Ummah brigade is not limited in Pakistan, they are more vicious in Bangladesh . Takfeer was a norm in Bangladesh even few days ago ( mostly by Mullahs ) ! You can ask any honest Bangladeshi for more evidence . So again you are taking my words only for you when I even did not mention any name or nationality!

I support Bengali culture and Bangladeshi identity. But that's it ! So move on please. We are discussing modern Pakistani identity which doesn't concern Bangladesh the least bit.

So please move on

Thanks that you support our nationality ! And I even do not visit any section other than BDF , unless someone tag me, because I have zero interest in any mater that is not related to Bangladesh , I am a hardcore nationalistic person (and my identity is Bengali Muslim ) and I am proud of it

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Agree, but are we not transforming? India can manipulate any history they want, should we care?

Generally speaking, we should care, because it economically impacts us when our history is usurped. Take a glance at threads on food, history, genetics and the IVC to understand specific cases of how India has flipped the natural order in the subcontinent entirely on its head. Now they have hamstrung themselves by denying their melting pot, multiethnic roots. Pakistanis thankfully are more mature than this and fully accept and even appreciate our own multiple origin points. Like other civilised nations, Pakistan is appreciative of its various influences over the millennia. Now if India insists on commandeering that which it can prove to be "out of India" while rejecting all else as "a foreign invasion", then I say it again - they are screwing themselves and we should help them do so.

Pakistanis should highlight the precise origins of everything from foodstuffs to religious doctrines to DNA, just to force the hand of those dumb halfwits from gangaland who persistently respond to us on numerous threads genuinely deceived by their own brahminist propaganda that somehow everything and the kitchen sink originated in the nation state of India or the lands thereof.

The sooner we start exposing the brahminist fraud and instead start correctly identifying Pakistan and pakistani lands as the source of south Asian culture, the better. Otherwise, the usurpation will quietly continue, until we're left being defined by someone else's terms.

The first truth to expose is that Coterminous Pakistan is the progenitor state of both the Indus Valley and the gangetic plains. DNA confirms this reality.

The second truth, which is the real kicker for ALL of hindutva contemporary thought, is that the IVC was substantially Iranian in origin.

Hindustan is not "Indian" in the slightest. It is many things, including Iranian, Aryan and Ancient Pakistani, the proportionality of which is debatable, but the "Indian" contribution is minimal and insignificant in terms of the actual development of Hindustan. I'm talking about a land that owes every dime it ever made to foreigners (be they invaders or migrants or slave drivers), yet they delude themselves every day that something of value ever emerged from out of India and that Muslims have no right to direct the progress of the subcontinent in general.

 

[Baibars_1260]

There is a saying in Bangla and that is < ":Thakur ghare kere , ami to kola khaini " ,English proverb is , A guilty mind is always suspicious!

While I have not mention any name , still you have taken the word to you ?


Indeed we are separate nation , we have only common and it's religion , and I know that two nation theory is not a Pakistani concept , but it was a Bangladeshi concept and Pakistanis failed it ! Besides Ummah brigade is not limited in Pakistan, they are more vicious in Bangladesh . Takfeer was a norm in Bangladesh even few days ago ! You can ask any honest Bangladeshi for more evidence . So again you are taking my words only for you when I even did not mention any name or nationality!




Thanks that you support our nationality ! And I even do not visit the section , neither I visist any other section other than BDF unless someone tag me ! Because I have zero interest in any mater that is not related to Bangladesh , I am a hardcore nationalistic person ( my identity is a Bengali Muslim ) and I am proud of it

Fine , Fine - You win. We are separate now. We don't want to get burnt again.

As the saying goes-
ঘর-পোড়া গরু সিন্দুরে মেঘ দেখলে ভয় পায়।

You have nothing to contribute to this topic.
Please move on.
Thanks for your cooperation.

 

[The Accountant]

He is presenting an alternate history, but at least he is making a cultural argument,
but, I'm afraid you are also presenting a alternate history, but, your version is much worse.

Please allow me to explain why.
Indus Valley Civilisation is among the 4 oldest civilisations in the worlds,
A civilisation does not spring up out of the earth in one go, it has a starting point, the mature phase, the end, and the lingering after effect, where it leaves influence even after it demise.

The oldest recorded settlement linked to the Indus Valley Civilisation is in Mehgarh, which is in Baluchistan. There are also sites near Gwadar, and in all the regions of modern day Pakistan, including KPK and Kashmir. It just happens that during its mature phase its cente was concentrated along modern day Punjab and Sindh, it does mean other regions were not part of it.

The regions constituting modern day Pakistan, have always had links with each other throughout history, Gandhara civilisation is another example, it included modern day KPK, Punjab and Kashmir, there are endless examples.

History of Pakistan, and all its peoples goes back further into history then most nations around the world, even further then India, India did not exist when people of Pakistan lived as a single nation.

Khurasan is merely few hundred year old entity, links between the people of Pakistan go back thousands of years. So, the two cannot be compared.

Whatever explanation u r giving is allien to Pakistani people. Try telling this to a sindhi and pathan that u r linked with same culture and they will laugh at u and infact at the start they will dont even understand u.

The basic of culture is language whereas pushto sindhi saraiki has nothing in common not even words.

Your statement that khurasan is mere few hundred year old concept is flawed as it existed atleast 1400 years ago during time of Prophet Muhammad SAW.

In short u r telling me on beleving in some fairy tale of 5000 years old which may or may not be 10% peoplemight believe while ignoring belief of 83% people who put islam as no 1 priority in their life.

Amazing

 

[Michael Corleone]

To::
@DalalErMaNodi ; @Atlas ; @X-ray Papa; @Michael Corleone
As they say in Bihar : Ek Bihari sau par bhari ( One Bihari overcomes 100 others).

Like the punjabis said one of them equals to 13 Hindus/bengalis. Diner sheshe shob Bengali der hathe dolhai khai.
Dholaikhale

 

[peagle]

Whatever explanation u r giving is allien to Pakistani people. Try telling this to a sindhi and pathan that u r linked with same culture and they will laugh at u and infact at the start they will dont even understand u.

The basic of culture is language whereas pushto sindhi saraiki has nothing in common not even words.

Your statement that khurasan is mere few hundred year old concept is flawed as it existed atleast 1400 years ago during time of Prophet Muhammad SAW.

In short u r telling me on beleving in some fairy tale of 5000 years old which may or may not be 10% peoplemight believe while ignoring belief of 83% people who put islam as no 1 priority in their life.

Amazing

I do not plan on arguing for sake of an argument.

You do realise history only becomes alive once it is taught, and thus known by the populous. The point is, if it has not been taught, does not mean it is not a fact. you are confusing the two issues. That is why I said we have not claimed our past, while our neighbours have. That's why our people are not aware of our shared history, but gladly , it has started to change.

Now, if you are going to present archaeological evidence, and clear academically accepted facts proven for over a hundred years, without dispute, about the Indus Valley Civilisation as fairy tales, then I do not know how we can discuss anything? you are clearly removed from reality.
It makes me wonder how did you gain the status of think tank analyst.

If you are ready to have a reasoned discussion, we can continue, otherwise I have nothing more to say to you.

 

[Moriro]

One of our post 1947 -constituent entities seceded on the basis of "ethnic pride". Their history begins from 1971. They have forgotten who they were before 1971. Populations transform over political events. The. Irish seceded from Great Britain and don't consider themselves Englishmen and they only study that portion of English history that concerns them. Pakistan is transforming rapidly towards a distinct national identity which is loosening its historical and cultural bonds to its former parent political entity.

I would rather like to have different opinion here, the only time Bangladesh had thought differently was 1947 when they moved forward against the geopolitical reality and allied them with us, In 1971 they again hit by the reality and returned to their dependence on india again as was before 1947. So even today most of their foreign and internal policies have more to do with their depandance on india rather then their independent nationalistic pride. No multiethnic nation survives the enforced agenda of single identity it always had repercussions throughout the history and it will always turn out to be like that. You have to be realistic instead of being nationalistic in order develop a right system according to your own diverse dynamics and requirements.

 

[peagle]

I agree about the legal and traditional basis for Pakistan's claim. Political events, even over a short time, result in dramatic population changes ( like the change in Pakistan's constituent population after 1971). Jammu is majority Hindu area, and the Hindu population is extremely hostile to Muslims and Pakistan. In the remote and hypothetical event of a union with Pakistan this population would be as hostile as the population of our former eastern wing.
I was considering populations also from an identity angle, not just geographical. That is identifying as Pakistanis or Pakistaniyat for want of another word.
Even the Kashmiris in the valley talk about Azadi rather than Pakistan.
An Indian Marxist friend of mine said that if he was incharge he would hand Kashmir over to Pakistan on a platter and watch the fun. Like the East Bengali Muslims before the Kashmiri Muslims are on a centuries old quest for self determination and are riding piggyback on Pakistan. Once free of Indian / ( Hindu) domination it won't take them long to turn their guns on Pakistan.

Brother, I fear you may be misinformed here,

What masterchief was alluding to was the genocide against Muslims of Jammu in 1947, it was preplanned with the involvement of RSS, and the Maharajas state authority. It was also one of the reasons Pakistan tried to help, but we have been very poor at setting our narrative, and explaining the events surrounding Kashmir in 1947. so the tribal invasion story, and other BS has gained traction.

Before that genocide and massacre of around 200,000 plus Muslims, Jammu actually had a clear Muslim majority, it only has a Hindu majority because of that genocide. That being said, the present reality is different.

Regarding the Valley, after 70 years of oppression, you cant blame the people for becoming frustrated, they know "azadi" is a slogan that will get wider support then simply shouting Pakistan. Tell that Indian Marxist friend of yours, I will buy him caviar, vodka and a lazy-boy chair, so he can watch the fun in comfort, and when he gets a heart attack from seeing happy Kashmiris, at least he will die in comfort.

let me know when the deal is done, so i can tranfer the money. lol

 

[313ghazi]

National identity comes from working together as a nation or feeling part of a nation. Our nation doesn't have that - you can't fake a feeling of national identity.

Most of our national institutes work with the same disdain for the common man that the colonialists had. Our judges work against the government, parliament works against each other, province against federation.

Yes we as individuals have pride in our nation, we are thankful for it, we claim ownership of it - but the national identity you see in other nations comes from the nation working for the people.

We're a multi ethnic nation, we're a new nation (if you consider our current geography). It will come but you have to give it time.

As always with Pakistanis the fault lies elsewhere. We'll ignore all the things that we do to disunite us and tear us apart instead blame pathans for being Afghans, muhajir for being Indian, Shia for being Iranian and wahhabis for being Saudis.

Let's make our nation work for the weakest amongst us and the most vulnerable and you'll find a national identity.

The UK is a great example of this. Many whites argue that there isn't a British identity, but drive up and down the country today and you'll see posters thanking the NHS. Its an institution which is national and people appreciate. Walk the streets in November and observe how everyone wears a poppy. The nation appreciates the sacrifices of its forefathers and respects its armed services. That is what the British identity is built on - not bravado and singing Rule Britannia.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Generally speaking, we should care, because it economically impacts us when our history is usurped. Take a glance at threads on food, history, genetics and the IVC to understand specific cases of how India has flipped the natural order in the subcontinent entirely on its head.

Not sure about the economic impact of a historical narrative. Will research what you are saying.
Our economic and diplomatic ties are being redefined today with an emphasis on China, West and Central Asia. It won't matter if India brands a certain type of rice "Basmati". Thai rice is just as good and genetic modification can work wonders .

Now they have hamstrung themselves by denying their melting pot, multiethnic roots. Pakistanis thankfully are more mature than this and fully accept and even appreciate our own multiple origin points.
head.

Agree, but again why should this bother us. Let them be hamstrung or whatever as long as we know what the following coordinates mean:

(28.6330653, 77.2194984)

Like other civilised nations, Pakistan is appreciative of its various influences over the millennia. Now if India insists on commandeering that which it can prove to be "out of India" while rejecting all else as "a foreign invasion", then I say it again - they are screwing themselves and we should help them do so.

Yes, of course letting the enemy make mistakes is the best possible option. Our enemy has a much more diverse population and there is a North South cultural divide so defining who is an Indian is far more difficult.

Pakistanis should highlight the precise origins of everything from foodstuffs to religious doctrines to DNA, just to force the hand of those dumb halfwits from gangaland who persistently respond to us on numerous threads genuinely deceived by their own brahminist propaganda that somehow everything and the kitchen sink originated in the nation state of India or the lands thereof.

I believe our efforts and energies are far better utilized in developing our own national identity, and by encouraging our cultural diversity in a secular nationalist matrix. What happens across the border is of little concern to us . By welding the ethnic identities of our nation together we will emerge stronger.

The sooner we start exposing the brahminist fraud and instead start correctly identifying Pakistan and pakistani lands as the source of south Asian culture, the better. Otherwise, the usurpation will quietly continue, until we're left being defined by someone else's terms.

There are many frauds, not just "brahminist" ones on that side. There are non-brahminist frauds too. Which is why I disagree with holding joint History conferences, joint cultural events. We need to move on like Turkey who even changed their script to delink from the Arabs.

The first truth to expose is that Coterminous Pakistan is the progenitor state of both the Indus Valley and the gangetic plains. DNA confirms this reality.

The second truth, which is the real kicker for ALL of hindutva contemporary thought, is that the IVC was substantially Iranian in origin.

Am not factually disputing your points.
What do we gain from this. We can't change the History books of 1 billion children in India, Projecting a composite culture is a lost cause.We need to make our own children and future generations aware of their origins only as a reference point ; not a state they have to revert to.

Hindustan is not "Indian" in the slightest. It is many things, including Iranian, Aryan and Ancient Pakistani, the proportionality of which is debatable, but the "Indian" contribution is minimal and insignificant in terms of the actual development of Hindustan. I'm talking about a land that owes every dime it ever made to foreigners (be they invaders or migrants or slave drivers), yet they delude themselves every day that something of value ever emerged from out of India and that Muslims have no right to direct the progress of the subcontinent in general.

Understood, but once again, why should we fight this battle. We fought one battle on the basis of a single Ummah for all Indian Muslims and Pakistanis and we got a shock of our lives. Shouldn't we concentrate within and develop a cohesiveness?

Question:
How do you foresee the cultural identity of Pakistan ten years from now?
Do you feel that digital technology driven media like those developed by Coke studio are the best way to define ourselves?

How about Virsa and Saraiki festivals?

In the 1960s Pakistan would have foreign tours of their musical ensembles and also have foreign teams for their festivals such polo and tent pegging. How are we reviving these skills?