Pakistan First ! The case for Pakistani Nationalism.

[Baibars_1260]

Very compelling watching.
Isn't this a great link to our Central Asian identity?

 

[Mujahid Memon]

We are Pakistan's First ....

It is necessary now as never before to emphasize our identity.

We are Pakistanis, dwellers of Sindh, Baluchistan, KPK, Gilgit, Baltistan, Punjab and Azad Kashmir. We are defined by a common cultural thread of Saraiki linking our provinces and our peoples.
Ours is an ancient culture going back to the dawn of civilization established in the Indus River Valley 5400 years ago. We have evolved over the centuries absorbing other cultures and religions.

Over the last 50 years our cultural and national identity has been transformed and redefined.
We are redefining our cultural traditions to as they were centuries back with deep roots to Central Asia and the Middle East. In dress, language, and cuisine we are now different than we were 50 years back. Few nations in the world have culturally transformed so rapidly.

To further redefine it is necessary to emphasize who we are NOT...
Pakistanis are Not :

1. "Indian" Muslims - We are not part of "India", and yes a majority of our
population is Muslim, but religion is not the only defining feature of our national
identity.
We have no connection with the Muslim population of "India" as defined by its
territory today.

2. "West" Pakistanis - There is no "East" or "West" Pakistan but simply Pakistan.


3. "South" Asians- Pakistanis are Asians and our population similarity is with West or Central
Asia.

What do PDF members think?

Are the other South Asian populations at all relevant to us?

Pakistanis are only united by the religion and a little bit by Urdu language, otherwise we are culturally very heterogeneous. Specially the population eastern to the Indus river is too different than population from western side. Until or unless we are culturally and genetically mixed by inter-caste marriages (which a majority are not fond of), religion will remain the dominant factor of our national unification.

Very compelling watching.
Isn't this a great link to our Central Asian identity?

LOL. How many percentage of Pakistani population are Hunzai? 10%, 1%, 0.1%??

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Not sure about the economic impact of a historical narrative. Will research what you are saying.
Our economic and diplomatic ties are being redefined today with an emphasis on China, West and Central Asia. It won't matter if India brands a certain type of rice "Basmati". Thai rice is just as good and genetic modification can work wonders .




Agree, but again why should this bother us. Let them be hamstrung or whatever as long as we know what the following coordinates mean:

(28.6330653, 77.2194984)



Yes, of course letting the enemy make mistakes is the best possible option. Our enemy has a much more diverse population and there is a North South cultural divide so defining who is an Indian is far more difficult.



I believe our efforts and energies are far better utilized in developing our own national identity, and by encouraging our cultural diversity in a secular nationalist matrix. What happens across the border is of little concern to us . By welding the ethnic identities of our nation together we will emerge stronger.



There are many frauds, not just "brahminist" ones on that side. There are non-brahminist frauds too. Which is why I disagree with holding joint History conferences, joint cultural events. We need to move on like Turkey who even changed their script to delink from the Arabs.




Am not factually disputing your points.
What do we gain from this. We can't change the History books of 1 billion children in India, Projecting a composite culture is a lost cause.We need to make our own children and future generations aware of their origins only as a reference point ; not a state they have to revert to.




Understood, but once again, why should we fight this battle. We fought one battle on the basis of a single Ummah for all Indian Muslims and Pakistanis and we got a shock of our lives. Shouldn't we concentrate within and develop a cohesiveness?

Question:
How do you foresee the cultural identity of Pakistan ten years from now?
Do you feel that digital technology driven media like those developed by Coke studio are the best way to define ourselves?

How about Virsa and Saraiki festivals?

In the 1960s Pakistan would have foreign tours of their musical ensembles and also have foreign teams for their festivals such polo and tent pegging. How are we reviving these skills?

Points noted. Well made as usual. However, you're essentially asking: why push back against Indian narrativesat all?

 

[Baibars_1260]

Pakistanis are only united by the religion and a little bit by Urdu language, otherwise we are culturally very heterogeneous. Specially the population eastern to the Indus river is too different than population from western side. Until or unless we are culturally and genetically mixed by inter-caste marriages (which a majority are not fond of), religion will remain the dominant factor of our national unification.

Good point.
Urban young Pakistanis are marrying across ethnic boundaries.
My own extended family has at least five Punjabi and three Sindhi, one Baluchi and one Pashtun marriages. It is more common amongst armed forces personnel ( remember Alpha Bravo Charlie ).

 

[313ghazi]

There are many idiots who don't understand what Ummah is. Ummah is multi-factored. There is the religious identity which all Muslims are obligated as part of our faith to recognise.

There is a communal aspect which is a Sunnah and it is beneficial for us to accept this. One could argue this is tied in with the religious identity.

Then there is the political identity which I believe has been mandated upon us by Allah swt. However the political identity is based on political bayyah.

We don't have a Calipha, our nations don't have treaties. Our leaders will be asked by Allah swt for thier failures. Pakistani people cannot be politically aligned to the concept of Ummah yet because there is no body to represent it. That doesn't mean we should not campaign for it and work to establish a body which is a Caliphate or an equivalent.

Under these political conditions Pakistan first is a given. We must give priority to those who we share a national identity with. We all agree to be a part of this nation served by this government.

Only through treaties and ultimately bayyah to a Caliph or a system which represents the power and duties of a Caliph can we share our political loyalties.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Points noted. Well made as usual. However, you're essentially asking: why push back against Indian narrativesat all?

Not exactly. We could leave the pushback to esteemed scholars like
you but that effort should not compromise our efforts to build and expand our national identity which could be taken up by others. A national identity based on a secular non-parochial matrix that allows adequate space for regional representation. A quilted patchwork fabric of sorts of ethnic identities that combine to make a beautiful quilt. In the word's of Mao Tse Tun "Let a thousand flowers bloom"

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Not exactly. We could leave the pushback to esteemed scholars like
you but that effort should not compromise our efforts to build and expand our national identity which could be taken up by others. A national identity based on a secular non-parochial matrix that allows adequate space for regional representation. A quilted patchwork fabric of sorts of ethnic identities that combine to make a beautiful quilt. In the word's of Mao Tse Tun "Let a thousand flowers bloom"

Agreed wholeheartedly. All sorts of fringe type loons are needed on this project! Probably everyone on this thread for starters.

 

[HAIDER]

We are Pakistan's First ....

It is necessary now as never before to emphasize our identity.

We are Pakistanis, dwellers of Sindh, Baluchistan, KPK, Gilgit, Baltistan, Punjab and Azad Kashmir. We are defined by a common cultural thread of Saraiki linking our provinces and our peoples.
Ours is an ancient culture going back to the dawn of civilization established in the Indus River Valley 5400 years ago. We have evolved over the centuries absorbing other cultures and religions.

Over the last 50 years our cultural and national identity has been transformed and redefined.
We are redefining our cultural traditions to as they were centuries back with deep roots to Central Asia and the Middle East. In dress, language, and cuisine we are now different than we were 50 years back. Few nations in the world have culturally transformed so rapidly.

To further redefine it is necessary to emphasize who we are NOT...
Pakistanis are Not :

1. "Indian" Muslims - We are not part of "India", and yes a majority of our
population is Muslim, but religion is not the only defining feature of our national
identity.
We have no connection with the Muslim population of "India" as defined by its
territory today.

2. "West" Pakistanis - There is no "East" or "West" Pakistan but simply Pakistan.


3. "South" Asians- Pakistanis are Asians and our population similarity is with West or Central
Asia.

What do PDF members think?

Are the other South Asian populations at all relevant to us?

After 50 years , there will complete divide between Pak and Indian muslims. As far as nationalism ..... Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts as a last resource pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and happy to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority

 

[Baibars_1260]

Brother, I fear you may be misinformed here,

What masterchief was alluding to was the genocide against Muslims of Jammu in 1947, it was preplanned with the involvement of RSS, and the Maharajas state authority. It was also one of the reasons Pakistan tried to help, but we have been very poor at setting our narrative, and explaining the events surrounding Kashmir in 1947. so the tribal invasion story, and other BS has gained traction.

Before that genocide and massacre of around 200,000 plus Muslims, Jammu actually had a clear Muslim majority, it only has a Hindu majority because of that genocide. That being said, the present reality is different.

Regarding the Valley, after 70 years of oppression, you cant blame the people for becoming frustrated, they know "azadi" is a slogan that will get wider support then simply shouting Pakistan. Tell that Indian Marxist friend of yours, I will buy him caviar, vodka and a lazy-boy chair, so he can watch the fun in comfort, and when he gets a heart attack from seeing happy Kashmiris, at least he will die in comfort.

let me know when the deal is done, so i can tranfer the money. lol

Good points !
I am aware of the genocide and depopulation.
I was simply stating the position of the Muslims in the Jammu area. For that matter the demographics are similar in Ladakh also.
So in essence that leaves only the valley.
I will tell my Indian Marxist friend about your offer.

Could I have your feed back on questions I asked @masterchief_mirza ?
(Ref: Post # 93 )

 

[peagle]

Good points !
I am aware of the genocide and depopulation.
I was simply stating the position of the Muslims in the Jammu area. For that matter the demographics are similar in Ladakh also.
So in essence that leaves only the valley.
I will tell my Indian Marxist friend about your offer.

Could I have your feed back on questions I asked @masterchief_mirza ?
(Ref: Post # 93 )

Don't tell him, but I'm getting him the cheap caviar, no sturgeons for him lol

In Ladakh its 50/50, because Kargil falls under Ladkh,
and, in Jammu, the Muslims are concentrated in certain districts, so there are many districts in Jammu, which have a Muslim majority, they are on the Kashmir Valley and Azad Kashmir side.

Details huh, never gets boring lol

 

[Baibars_1260]

After 50 years , there will complete divide between Pak and Indian muslims. As far as nationalism ..... Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts as a last resource pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and happy to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority

Then sir we should brand these gentleman "miserable fools " who are "reimbursing their own inferiority" .

 

[masterchief_mirza]

How do you foresee the cultural identity of Pakistan ten years from now?
Do you feel that digital technology driven media like those developed by Coke studio are the best way to define ourselves?

How about Virsa and Saraiki festivals?

In the 1960s Pakistan would have foreign tours of their musical ensembles and also have foreign teams for their festivals such polo and tent pegging. How are we reviving these skills?

Traditional skills, arts and sports should advance simultaneously with modern media formats. I don't think anyone could criticise a resurgence of such things. As well as having cultural relevance, they are a form of soft power with regards to influence globally.

Our diaspora has been too ashamed of the word "Pakistan" for too long. In this precise way, "Pakistan" and "Pakistani features" should be promoted. This ties in with what we discussed earlier.

When I spoke of "south Asian" being acceptable nomenclature, I meant in a context of historical records. I meant that post-1947 India should not be permitted to co-opt a pre-1947 subcontinental history that had nothing to do with "the nation state of India". That is quite different from Pakistani cultural phenomena being claimed as "Pakistani" instead of hiding them behind some vague definition of "south Asian".

Let me explain it more succinctly. What belongs to us should be advertised as such. What india incorrectly claims as its own should either be reclaimed as "Pakistani", or defaulted to "south Asian" if there is uncertainty.

As citizens of Pakistan and its diaspora, we should be comfortable that we are Pakistani but also south Asian geographically.

 

[Varunastra]

Generally speaking, we should care, because it economically impacts us when our history is usurped. Take a glance at threads on food, history, genetics and the IVC to understand specific cases of how India has flipped the natural order in the subcontinent entirely on its head. Now they have hamstrung themselves by denying their melting pot, multiethnic roots. Pakistanis thankfully are more mature than this and fully accept and even appreciate our own multiple origin points. Like other civilised nations, Pakistan is appreciative of its various influences over the millennia. Now if India insists on commandeering that which it can prove to be "out of India" while rejecting all else as "a foreign invasion", then I say it again - they are screwing themselves and we should help them do so.

Pakistanis should highlight the precise origins of everything from foodstuffs to religious doctrines to DNA, just to force the hand of those dumb halfwits from gangaland who persistently respond to us on numerous threads genuinely deceived by their own brahminist propaganda that somehow everything and the kitchen sink originated in the nation state of India or the lands thereof.

The sooner we start exposing the brahminist fraud and instead start correctly identifying Pakistan and pakistani lands as the source of south Asian culture, the better. Otherwise, the usurpation will quietly continue, until we're left being defined by someone else's terms.

The first truth to expose is that Coterminous Pakistan is the progenitor state of both the Indus Valley and the gangetic plains. DNA confirms this reality.

The second truth, which is the real kicker for ALL of hindutva contemporary thought, is that the IVC was substantially Iranian in origin.

Hindustan is not "Indian" in the slightest. It is many things, including Iranian, Aryan and Ancient Pakistani, the proportionality of which is debatable, but the "Indian" contribution is minimal and insignificant in terms of the actual development of Hindustan. I'm talking about a land that owes every dime it ever made to foreigners (be they invaders or migrants or slave drivers), yet they delude themselves every day that something of value ever emerged from out of India and that Muslims have no right to direct the progress of the subcontinent in general.

Hey just to let you know most Indians don't believe in the out of India theory, we know we are the people of the Indus valley civilization and moved from their original lands eastwards

 

[lafete]

Great nations always create their own culture, especially when they see that the older culture they are inheriting has major problems. A good example are the Americans. Here is the case against the desi culture and the cause of Allah's lanat on us all:

The 4 questions which no desi could ever answer:

“I hold in my hand a book which contains the maps of Europe, showing the political landscape for the past 5000 years. Every race is mentioned here. You have the Nordic people, Gauls, Celtic, Slavs, Latin, Iberian, Turks, Greeks, Persians, Arabs, the Chinese (Mongols) and even the Africans (Africans ruled over Sicily for some time). There is no mention of the Desi people. I categorize Desi people as those who have lived in the sub-continent and were at some time, part of the Mogul empire – mostly inhabitants of the present day Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Sri-lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal and Bhutan.

Q1:

Why hasn't anyone from this region (Desi) ever created a mufti-continental empire, in the past 5000 years of known human history? Why have they never ruled the world? No Mai ka lal had enough dam?


When you raise this question with an average Desi, he immediately deploys the default defense mechanism - denying the facts. This is most commonly done by renouncing his actually ethnicity and claiming to be of an Arab, Greek, Mongol, Central Asian or Persian decent. A closer inspection will show that this excuse or line of defense is also useless for the inhabitants of this region. This is because of the way history and events have played out. Every global super power (with one exception) has come to the sub-continent and kicked the local's behinds.


The wall of shame, if we go in reverse, reads something like this: [currently we have the Americans in Afghanistan, eighteen years and counting]. In the 80s you had the Russians who killed many Afghans and Pakistanis. The Chinese attacked and captured a lot of Indian Land in the 60s. Rewind a bit more and you have the British who ruled the area for 200 years. Before that you had the Central Asians, the Mogul Dynasty who ruled for eight hundred years (The Mogul emperors were Central Asian Turko-Mongols from modern-day Uzbekistan). Preceding this you had Genghis Khan, who chose to construct the tallest tower of skulls in the sub-continent - as a sign of his disgust. The Arabs came and ruled a significant portion of the subcontinent for a long period of time (Most of what is now Pakistan was captured during Caliph Omar's time + Mohammad bin Qasim), as did the Persian Empire. Before the Persians we had the good old Alexander the great visiting this region. The only exception are the Romans but I think that they would have kept the pattern going as well if Caesar had not been assassinated. There are two reasons for this confidence - The very next day Caesar was assassinated, he was supposed to take his forces and march east - Who knows where he would have stopped? Secondly, Caesar was a very ambitious man. When he went to Alexandria to sort out the mess between Cleopatra and her brother, he visited Alexander’s tomb and cried there (‘I have not just cause to weep, when I consider that Alexander at my age had conquered so many nations, and I have all this time done nothing that is memorable?). So it is possible that Caesar too would have honored you with a visit had he not been killed.

Therefore, no matter at what point you choose to start your history, every generation has had the dishonor of having their behinds kicked. A Desi fellow told my friend that he was a descendant of Genghis Khan (The fact that his features did not look Chinese did not matter to him). My friend told him that reading history must be a very embarrassing experience for him, his father, grandfather and others. When he asked why, my friend said that by bowing their heads to the British for 200 years, they had damaged Genghis Khan's name and legacy.

Q2:
Why is it that every global/regional power came to the sub-continent and kicked the local's behind?


It becomes clear fairly quickly that this wall of shame has nothing to do with religion. Over these 5000 years, the religion of inhabitants of the sub-continent changed a few times. Plus every religion was practiced in this region at one time or another. You currently have Desi Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jews and so on. Someone must have been right! The only thing unique to this region is the Desi culture which has remained fairly intact over the centuries. You can tell a lot from a people’s way of living by looking at their architecture. If you look at the ruins in Taxila and Mohenjo-daro you will see small similarities between Qissa khawani bazaar, Anarkali bazaar and especially Multan (because Multan is a very old city and was around when Alexander visited).

Q3:

What is the Desi cultural handicap that is behind this wall of shame?


The British, published formulas for controlling different groups living under the British Raj (Punjabi, Pushtoon, Baloch, Sindhi, Tamil, Kashmiri, Marathi, Gujrati, Bengali etc) in their "British army officer's sipahi training guide". The conclusion of this guide also states that as long as these races shall walk the earth, these formulas shall hold. You bully a Punjabi, bribe a Pushtoon, ignore a Sindhi, corrupt a Kashmiri and control the elders of the Baloch. These formulas are quite offensive but the sad part is that during their 200 year rule, there was never any revision issued - Thus proving their conclusion to some extent.

Q4
This was all published and was common knowledge! Why the helplessness?

A fellow once told me a joke that shed light on the two questions above. He said that after the Day of Judgment, an angel was flying over hell. He looked below and saw a roof of fire with small chimneys. On each chimney there was an angel sitting, holding a rod of metal. Whenever a human head popped out of the chimney, the angel sitting there would strike it down. There was one chimney however, which was unguarded. When the flying angel asked about the unguarded chimney, the angels replied back by saying that underneath that chimney is where we are burning the Desi folks - as soon as one person tries to climb the chimney, the others pull his feet down.”

 

[Baibars_1260]

Agreed wholeheartedly. Probably everyone on this thread for starters.

For all PDF members:

How would you rate the Armed Forces as a model for building on our identity?
Example: Before 1980 there was no
Sindh regiment.

Then the army took this bold step in 1980 raise this regiment. Now all four ethnic groups are represented with their own regiments.
"Sindhi hum, Baluchi hum, Punjabi hum, Pathan hum..."

Better roads and communications ( much of it built with the help of the armed forces) now enable Pakistanis to travel very easily from one region to another. So an isolated Pakistani region is not so isolated anymore and there is far more physical interaction.
Additionally investment and growth of industrial labor will breakdown
the feudal status quo.
Is that affecting more cohesion and contact between people's ?