Saturday, December 21, 2024
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Pakistan First ! The case for Pakistani Nationalism.

Ok this one is for @jamahir but I will try to answer your question without disclosing names.

This is common knowledge amongst Indian Marxists of the earlier generation one whom I had the privy to meet when he was in his 90s almost 12 years back .
I subsequently confirmed the situation from one of our own expat leftists also aged 90+ .
They are all dead now, but I am 100% sure that our security apparatus has maintained these records, as has our enemy.

This goes back to 1946-47 in the turmoil of Partition and given Russia's inheritance of the Soviet legacy and interests in this region the information is still sensitive,

Let's get on the Time Machine.

First of all the Partition as we see it 73 years later was not only a black and white Hindu vs Muslim, Sikh vs Muslim affair. There were numerous side currents bitterly opposed to Partition, some very public and violent such as the "Naval Ratings Mutiny " 1946, ex-INA veterans, and of course the Communist Party of India (CPI) that was loathe to split along communal lines. However the CPI bosses were also a realistic and realized that India was too far gone down the path of religious frenzy to be stabilized in the short term .
Their efforts at deflecting the communal frenzy into a popular anti-capitalist anti-feudal revolution ( Airman's Mutiny etc.) had been a miserable failure and unless the Indian Armed Forces went "Red" there was no hope of taking power by revolution.
In any case first the British and then the Congress government banned the CPI which went underground. Likewise the Communist Party of Pakistan ( CPP) also went underground with its leader Jam Saqi and others fleeing to Afghanistan and subsequently the Soviet Union.
A frequent route taken by Indian revolutionaries. Subhas Bose had fled the same way.

Stalin watched in dismay as his well disciplined CPI splintered. While Pakistan wrestling with a myriad problems most important of which was Kashmir had little time chasing its leftists across the border India wasted no time rounding these up especially after the failed Telengana armed insurrection.

The CPI members fled via the Nepal China route but with a more difficult land route heavily patrolled most of the members of the CPI were arrested including some who were youthful rebel children of the Congress party cabinet members . The Muslim component of the CPI cadre was the most uncompromising, and many refused to surrender and some were shot.
For Muslim CPI members it was far easier to cross over into Pakistan and flee to the Soviet Union which they did , but were promptly arrested by the KGB, imprisoned and interrogated until they were convinced these were genuine leftists.
Meanwhile with India and Pakistan at loggerheads with one another over Kashmir, Stalins dream of a united leftist India ruled by a subservient CPI, granting the Soviet Union its warm water port was shattered.
So Stalin concentrated on Pakistan, because after all it was now Pakistan that was on the Border of Afghanistan and it was Pakistan that controlled the Baluchistan coast.
Stalin got together a conference of sorts, calling the CPI members and CPP members, both now under asylum in the Soviet Union asking them to agree to the following:
- The CPP would reach out to left wing army officers about seizing power and the Soviets would back a take over of Kashmir.
-The CPI would accept the loss of Kashmir and not support the government.(At this time India was considering removing the ban on the CPI ).

The CPI members ( including Muslims) disagreed and said they were against the communal partitioning of the country and that went for Kashmir too. Apparently they were less interested in the Soviet geo-strategic interests.
One of the junior Indian Muslim members ( "youthful rebel") who was present at that meeting only as an observer told me that any conversations they were trying to have with their Pakistani counterparts was strictly monitored by Urdu speaking Uzbek communist KGB cadres.
In any case the CPI members refused and were packed off to detention and subsequently sent back to India.
The CPP members returned to Pakistan to try to seek support amongst left wing PA officers. The Soviets also tried to officially approach Liaquat Ali Khan.
We now know that Pakistani intelligence smashed the CPP ring and this time chased them into Afghanistan, killing most of the top leadership. I am not sure if Jam Saqui survived because he had already been arrested. In any case the CPP was history apart from some poet celebrities like Faiz, Mustafa Zaidi etc.

In India, things were different. The CPI came above ground with leaders like S. A. Dange and Rajeshwar Rao who steered the party into an alliance with the Congress. This was deliberate. After the failure of the CPP the Soviets switched tack and began dealing with the CPI funding and guiding it to a position of extreme influence over the government of India. The alliance was so strong that any agreement between the Soviet Union and India was always referred to the CPI and the Indian government was aware of that.

The Soviet Union hoped to build India up to take over Pakistan and grant it the warm water port. Pakistan was not a military pushover and the Soviets were disappointed with India in the 1965 war. The Tashkent conference was salve. Which is why the eastern wing had to be separated first.
It makes strategic sense for Pakistan to work with the Russian Federation on a naval port like she has done with China. This would give what Russia wants/needs and would shift the strategic balance in the world. It would also sway Russia away from Bharat.
your cuisine your language and dress is nothing like central Asia, and even middle east.

mid east is,Arabic
pakistan is not Arabic
you never hear a central.asian or Iranian suggest you are even remotely similar in culture.
these people look completely different. speak a different language and cook and eat in their own way
central Asians look half chinease,and other half Russian mix.

majority population in pakistan is,punjabi
I believe so .

as,for selling your unique culture this is something you have struggled,at up to now .
hooking on to middle east or central.asia,will not suffice I.think .you need to promote the word,Pakistani a lot more
About 50% of Pakistan is Punjabi. That means 50% is not. Also the Punjabi portion is mixed with Pukhtoons and Kashmiris to a massive degree.
What "linguistic connection?" We also speak English mutually, does that gives us a "linguistic connection?"

Not sure. Many ethnic groups in the Northern Areas are white looking, not to mention KP and many Northern Punjabis.

Totally disagree. Religious conservatism has made Pakistan a very confused and intolerant society not to mention turn us into Arab worshipers. Only racial nationalism can help us now.
Nationalism as the highest ideal is folly. It ought to be subjected to something higher. I don't wish Pakistan to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
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What "linguistic connection?" We also speak English mutually, does that gives us a "linguistic connection?"

Not sure. Many ethnic groups in the Northern Areas are white looking, not to mention KP and many Northern Punjabis.

Totally disagree. Religious conservatism has made Pakistan a very confused and intolerant society not to mention turn us into Arab worshipers. Only racial nationalism can help us now.
I should like to add, that conservatism cannot keep up with change. It is dynamic orthodoxy that can make keep with change without compromising on values.
 
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Saying no to Islam also means saying no to Knowledge. Philosophy is important - if you don't philosophise then others will philosophise for you. Capitalism, free markets, etc are ideas with philosophic roots.

As Alama Iqbal warned:

"I would like to offer a few pieces of advice to the young men who are at present studying at Cambridge. ... I advise you to guard against atheism and materialism. The biggest blunder made by Europe was the separation of Church and State. This deprived their culture of moral soul and diverted it to the atheistic materialism. I had twenty-five years ago seen through the drawbacks of this civilization and therefore had made some prophecies. They had been delivered by my tongue although I did not quite understand them. This happened in 1907. ... After six or seven years, my prophecies came true, word by word. The European war of 1914 was an outcome of the aforesaid mistakes made by the European nations in the separation of the Church and the State."

Even the west now acknowledges how Islam reformed western Philosophy


The encyclopedia calls Averroes (ibn Rusd) the father of the modern western world.

This flow of philosophy from the West to the Muslims and then back to the west is something us Muslims share with the west. This is a tradition that we (Muslims, Christians and Jews - the abrahamic religions) share. This is under threat now. While these there religions were busy/distracted with the war on terror something fundamental was underway.

Throughout human history there was one constant - the human being, two hands, two feet, one nose, one head, etc. This is about to change. Watch this video. We are now in the age of trans-humanism.


This should be very disturbing for Islam, Christianity and Jews.

In Pakistan you better have your story straight and why Islam forbids this because for Hindu's human beings with multiple hands is already present in their religion. The Chinese also won't have a problem with this either. Moral values hold as long as they are not tested on the battle field - what an advantage it will be if the Chinese can come up with a soldier who does not sleep or feel pain.

Netflix has a documentary called un-natural selection:


In this documentary, This high school drop out tried to engineer a dog that glows in the dark
 
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Saying no to Islam also means saying no to Knowledge. Philosophy is important - if you don't philosophise then others will philosophise for you. Capitalism, free markets, etc are ideas with philosophic roots.
We don't say no to Islam. We say no mixing too much religion with politics.
True, but our movies, entertainment, media etc are generally not in English but in Hindi / Urdu.

If, tomorrow, you adopt lets say Saraiki as your national language and start making your dramas in that and convert all your news channels into Saraiki language, most Indians wont understand those.
So what's your point? That our language started with you? That's a complete fabricated myth. It was brought to you by the Ghazvanids while it developed in our cities. Granted the name "urdu" started with a poet in modern India, but the language has had so many names throughout history.

I mean Hindustan means Indus land. Well within Pakistan.
 
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So what's your point? That our language started with you? That's a complete fabricated myth. It was brought to you by the Ghazvanids while it developed in our cities. Granted the name "urdu" started with a poet in modern India, but the language has had so many names throughout history.

I mean Hindustan means Indus land. Well within Pakistan.
What are you getting frustrated with? When did I claim sole rights over Urdu?
As far as I understand, Hindustani (precursor to present Urdu / Hindi) is a mix of Farsi and Sanskrit.

The term 'Hindustan' was meant for all lands across Sindhu - which means present day Pakistan, India, BD.
 
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So what's your point? That our language started with you? That's a complete fabricated myth. It was brought to you by the Ghazvanids while it developed in our cities. Granted the name "urdu" started with a poet in modern India, but the language has had so many names throughout history.

I mean Hindustan means Indus land. Well within Pakistan.

ThunderCat
The point being made by our Indian guests as always is that :

Culturally Pakistan owns nothing , not even a language . It is all owned by India as it is politically and geographically constituted today. So Pakistan has no right to its identity. It is an illegal and artificial state, and thus no right to exist . It won't exist much longer and India will eventually conquer it, either economically and culturally, or militarily and assimilate it back into India . The people of Pakistan will be reconverted back as Agniveers.

The British said the same about the Irish, Canadians, Americans, Australians, New Zealanders, that they all owed their culture and language to the "home country " and must sing "God Save the Queen ". The French said the same about the Belgians and the Germans said the same about the Austrians and the Swiss.

The reality ofcourse is different.


What are you getting frustrated with? When did I claim sole rights over Urdu?
As far as I understand, Hindustani (precursor to present Urdu / Hindi) is a mix of Farsi and Sanskrit.

The term 'Hindustan' was meant for all lands across Sindhu - which means present day Pakistan, India, BD.

Hindustani is dying language in India. The future language of India will be Sanskrit ( whatever the Mizos and the Nagas think ) . When Yogi Adityanath takes over from Narendra Modi the official language will be Sanskrit. Bollywood would be making their movies in Sanskrit only. The medium of education in India till post-graduate level will be only in Sanskrit.

We Pakistanis are gleefully looking forward to that day. India will no longer have any claim over Urdu or Hindustani, ...or Sindhi, Baluchi ( Darri,Brahui), Pashto, Saraiki, and Punjabi (in the Shahmukhi script) for that matter.
 
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Hindustani is dying language in India. The future language of India will be Sanskrit ( whatever the Mizos and the Nagas think ) . When Yogi Adityanath takes over from Narendra Modi the official language will be Sanskrit. Bollywood would be making their movies in Sanskrit only. The medium of education in India till post-graduate level will be only in Sanskrit.

We Pakistanis are gleefully looking forward to that day. India will no longer have any claim over Urdu or Hindustani, ...or Sindhi, Baluchi ( Darri,Brahui), Pashto, Saraiki, and Punjabi (in the Shahmukhi script) for that matter.
Haha. are you being serious or just making a wish?

The South has not accepted Hindi and you think the North will move to Sanskrit from Hindi?
 
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Haha. are you being serious or just making a wish?

The South has not accepted Hindi and you think the North will move to Sanskrit from Hindi?

I said Sanskrit, not Hindi. The people of Southern India have no problems with learning Sanskrit, and educated South Indians are fairly fluent in the language. The South Indians don't like spoken Hindi, with its residual Persian Arabic words ( Example : North Indians will say "Qalam" and "Kaghaz" for pen and paper ). The South Indians don't like grammar from a particular district of the of the United Provinces ( "Khari Boli" ), and are puzzled why a gender is associated with a non-living object ( Example : Uski qameez , when referring to a shirt, which by the way is a non-Sanskrit word ).
There is an effort to Sanskritize Hindi further but Bollywood is a major impediment. Which is why in the 1960s the Tamils ransacked cinema halls showing Hindi movies and daubed movie posters with bitumen tar.



Could we stick to the topic of Pakistani identity?
 
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I said Sanskrit, not Hindi. The people of Southern India have no problems with learning Sanskrit, and educated South Indians are fairly fluent in the language. The South Indians don't like spoken Hindi, with its residual Persian Arabic words ( Example : North Indians will say "Qalam" and "Kaghaz" for pen and paper ). The South Indians don't like grammar from a particular district of the of the United Provinces ( "Khari Boli" ), and are puzzled why a gender is associated with a non-living object ( Example : Uski qameez , when referring to a shirt, which by the way is a non-Sanskrit word ).
There is an effort to Sanskritize Hindi further but Bollywood is a major impediment. Which is why in the 1960s the Tamils ransacked cinema halls showing Hindi movies and daubed movie posters with bitumen tar.



Could we stick to the topic of Pakistani identity?
Apart from few Brahmins learning Sanskrit to officiate weddings, South Indians do not know Sanskrit as well.
Many South Indians have started understanding Hindi now. Andhra, Karnataka and Kerala have no animosity towards Hindi and many learn it as a 3rd language. Even in TN, many understand it although refuse to converse in it.
Indians have found a good balance in language now. Efforts to save Sanskrit from extinction is welcome, but it is not going to replace Hindi.
 
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The rest of the world is quick to remind us that the Ummah is dead but then collectively punishes all Muslims for the crimes of Muslims of a particular nationality


because they are world class hypocrites.
 
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