Pakistan finalized Z-10ME Helicopters deal with China : Journalist Sumaira Khan

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

If the Z-10ME is coming, then the only other possible opening in the PAA is for the heavyweight type (that the AH-1Z was supposed to fill).

The fact that Turkey is using Ukrainian engines for the T929 prototype shows that they want to get that helicopter flying and in-service sooner than later. The T929 with the same engines as the Mi-17/171 could be an interesting fit.

ATAK-2 will delivered to the Turkish Army by 2023.

T-129 and T929 would have made for a very easy logistical combo, but given how Pakistans options always are, Z-10ME + T929 should work just fine too, I’m interested to see if there’s any future crossovers between Chinese and Turkish systems, especially for Pakistan.
Chinese munitions on Turkish helos? Did we not have the option of Chinese munitions or Turkish ships? So maybe there’s hope.

Turkey offers a wide range of arments for these choppers.

 

[peagle]

Personally, I think China should allocate 1 to 2 billion US dollars for military support to Pakistan every year.

Coming to cinemas near you very soon, perhaps another decade before China is in position to actively support her true friends and allies.
Although, economic integration for mutual benefit would be a much better preference, rather then blanket aid, I think that's also Pakistan's preferred option, because both benefit. Pakistan with an eventual population of around 400 million, a lot of economic activity can happen between China and Pakistan.

Most of American trade is with Canada and Mexico, they are much smaller countries. 400 million is potentially a massive market and a valuable partner.

 

[ziaulislam]

No chance of that happening massive territory problems, also indian whore wants to replace China as most powerful nation in Asia.

Why did israelis done ao good..

They prepare for the 1%

They have special thinkthank for "what if"
In 1960s ifsomwonw had suggested that one day USA will align with india and ditch pakistan people would have said impossibel..since india cheeni bhai bhai and russia india china nexus

Things change

China offered a solution in past we accept your position in south and you ours in west

This may well happen again..if that happens pakistan will loose china backing

 

[Rafi]

Why did israelis done ao good..

They prepare for the 1%

They have special thinkthank for "what if"
In 1960s ifsomwonw had suggested that one day USA will align with india and ditch pakistan people would have said impossibel..since india cheeni bhai bhai and russia india china nexus

Things change

China offered a solution in past we accept your position in south and you ours in west

This may well happen again..if that happens pakistan will loose china backing

LoL never gonna happen, they will never except hegemony over 1 another, the neighbourhood can have only 1 800 pound guerrilla.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

ATAK 129 is over for the near to medium term - Atak 2 Heavy is the only option left (and likely to be considered once the engine issue is resolved). But there too no guarantee that PK will go for a heavy. I think Lift will be a bigger need for PAA, even before a heavy. Turkey copters are now a 2023 to 2025 option if that.

 

[Deino]

ATAK-2 will delivered to the Turkish Army by 2023.

Turkey offers a wide range of arments for these choppers.

Never ever … That type is not even flying and you suggest it could be delivered to the Turkish Army already next year?? Come on … we are not stupid!

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Never ever … That type is not even flying and you suggest it could be delivered to the Turkish Army already next year?? Come on … we are not stupid!

According to the TAI boss, they will be delivered for the field tests. They are no stupid either.....

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Getting 40 Z-10 between 2022-2023 and 40 T-129 in 2025 seems like an attainable objective
I am of an opinion the Z-10 and T-129 should be the two Gunship platforms for Pakistan Army

Cobra should be put in reserves or retired transferred to border security forces

 

[TigerOfMysore]

Getting 40 Z-10 between 2022-2023 and 40 T-129 in 2025 seems like an attainable objective

PAA needs to address its medium and heavy lift needs, after it addresses its light gunship requirements.

 

[aziqbal]

the PA test pilots said the Z10 wasn't the best but made the best memories

another words it was second choice after T129

PA wanted T129 its just a shame it didn't work out very bad

Z10 in the high altitude tests very badly

 

[dBSPL]

Never ever … That type is not even flying and you suggest it could be delivered to the Turkish Army already next year?? Come on … we are not stupid!

According to the TAI boss, they will be delivered for the field tests. They are no stupid either.....

The first sets of engines will begin to arrive in the coming months. ATAK-II will start the engine in 2022. First flight scheduled for 2023 first quarter. So even for TAF it is difficult to reach operational level before 2025(First delivery for TAF scheduled for 2025 first quarter). Eligibility for export will probably after TAF. ATAK-I and ATAK-II are not in the same class anyway.

Pakistan has not yet made an official request for ATAK-II. It is possible that they following the project closely, but the urgent need of the PAF will be met through the Z-10ME systems. Therefore, the process will probably continue through the Chinese manufacturer from here on out.

 

[SQ8]

The Z-10ME would've been even more wicked had it of had retractable gear. Not sure how fast these are compared to the Apaches, but do wonder how much drag they produce with the landing gear hanging.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @iLION12345_1

Not really needed for the task at hand of chugging along at 110 knots or so. At best reaching 140 for sprints to target. The gear on the early Hinds was useful because they were used more as fixed wing attack pattern and transitioned around 140 knots with the Mi17s at times.
Recon helos like the RAH-66 and FARA need speed to transition to the target area. The KA-50 platform was fairly draggy from the start so the retractable gear game in to let it reach transition speeds.

For PA’s needs of a platform transitioning from Rahwali or other forward locations to the front doing 140 knots is enough

 

[dBSPL]

it highlights the importance of why countries like Pakistan and Turkey need to develop their own industrial capacity to manufacture critical components like engines, ICs, what have you.

Your observation on the engine issue are really spot on. If I have to say something for the Turkish defense industry, this barrier stands before us as a problem that will slow down the development of the entire industrial system while Turkiye increases the number of the end-systems in its product catalogue. For this reason, especially in the last 4-5 years, the main interest has started to focus on overcoming this problem. This is the last and (biggest) obstacle to achieving an independent military industry capability.

In the civilian market, from land vehicles to aviation engines, Turkish manufacturers are already part of their worldwide supply network and providing mass-producing/part-producing/enginering services many important engines. However, they realized too late that this was not enough on a military scale and how important it was to retain industrial rights. I think there are at least 7-8 engine development programs and about 50 projects related to subsystems and production technologies in the field land-sea-aviation, by state- or JV enterprises . We have started to get the first results, but we are not at the point where we can say that we have overcome the problem before successfully end testing and qualification processes of each system. There are still years, especially in the field of aviation. But We have to succeed, we have no other choice.

 

[Shotgunner51]

JV enterprises

Yes I also think pool resources be it financial or talent is the way to go, JV offers good legal platform. I think Pakistan and Azerbaijan are weighing possibilities to join TFX is that right? Similar approach can be applied to other aviation components notably the engine.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Not really needed for the task at hand of chugging along at 110 knots or so. At best reaching 140 for sprints to target. The gear on the early Hinds was useful because they were used more as fixed wing attack pattern and transitioned around 140 knots with the Mi17s at times.
Recon helos like the RAH-66 and FARA need speed to transition to the target area. The KA-50 platform was fairly draggy from the start so the retractable gear game in to let it reach transition speeds.

For PA’s needs of a platform transitioning from Rahwali or other forward locations to the front doing 140 knots is enough

The PAA's focused more on the following:

1. Endurance / Range
2. Hot Temperature Performance
3. Sand Filtration
4. High-Altitude Operations

The medium-weight helicopter (Z-10ME) will be the PAA's workhorse. The PAA will deploy the system in most of its operational environments. The last time the PAA set an official number to the workhorse was back in the late 1980s. It wanted 60 AH-1S/F. Even though the Z-10ME and ATAK are larger and much more capable than the legacy Cobra, I believe the PAA wants to stick to that 60-strong figure. In other words, it wants a massive capability upgrade. On this front, a big benefit of the Z-10ME is the ability to draw on China's big economies of scale and, potentially, get these aircraft at a pretty good price.

The heavyweight requirement is pretty interesting. Definitely, we can make a case it was for the added payload, but the AH-1Z was also (by design) good for sea-based and coastal operations thanks to its USMC blood. It makes me wonder if the PAA had opted for the AH-1Z so that it could one day support PN Marines operations to an extent (@Signalian). So, if that is the case, the next heavyweight competitor would need to have range, payload, and salt-erosion-proofing. I imagine China is working on something along these lines for its own amphibious needs, so an Apache-Viper hybrid could be a thing. Otherwise, I think the Turks are pretty much onboard with the idea for ATAK-2 as they too would probably use it at sea.

It's a shame we couldn't leverage the AH-1Z route. The cost was good and the USMC has started storing a few airframes that we could've requested. It wouldn't have been a problem to build a fleet of 30 AH-1Zs plus a couple of dozen UH-1Y for SSG and SSG Navy operations IMHO.