Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[PakShaheen79]

Death by Chocolate!
I think mounting evidence you are talking about here was just as solid as Powell presented to get approval to attack Iraq.

Fact of matter is it was all political game only mistake ISI made was to concudle Afghan "JIHAD" much too earlier than it should had. All this nuclear issue is total nonsense as US knew what we were upto.

It is amazing if Pakistani acquision of nuclear weapon is that much a problem how the hell same US congress approved 5.1 Billion deal for New F-16s and MLU. It is evident that there is a NEED once again. US once again need someone to win a war for it...that's why there is not a single word from so restrcit US congress.

This is hypocracy why we HATE US.

 

[PAFAce]

From another thread Re: It does not matter These people hate us

Let's forget for a second that that statement was made by a pro-US politician, in a country where politics is synonymous with lying.

Ma'am, the alternative was very scary. The choice was simple, either build nuclear deterrence, or risk being annihilated within the century. And what's more, we were lead to believe it is okay as long as we were not harming global (read: American) interests. No country in this world would willingly leave their national defence at the mercy of other nations. It would have been unfair for anybody to ask that of us.

And despite all this, we kept the bombs under wraps until India left us no other choice in 1998. Doesn't that count for something? You may call that shooting ourselves in the foot, you have the right to do so. I'd rather shoot myself in the foot than get shot in the head. In any case, Pakistan was not the sole cause of the F-16 embargo. The US had much more to do with it. Particularly, American duality.

 

[BATMAN]

Any news about arrival of new F-16s?

US has threatend Kiyani to forget about F-16, if he does not support Kerry logger bill. just learned from TV.

One question; why US is so keen to give aid? that they are planning to block F-16 if we refuse aid!

 

[PakShaheen79]

US has threatend Kiyani to forget about F-16, if he does not support Kerry logger bill. just learned from TV.

One question; why US is so keen to give aid? that they are planning to block F-16 if we refuse aid!

Because there are clauses like

1)- Pakistan will give access to any Pakistani civilian who US think has been involved in nuclear technology acquisition and/or proliferation.

Know what is this? Should we accept it... It is equal to give US access to any scientist or technician in our nuclear program.

2)- There are also clauses like US will be consulted before promotions in armed forces.

Know I think without my clarification one can guess this is how ISI,MI and IB will be toppled.May be armed forces themselves as well.

I think these two are enough to tell you whole story.

NOTE: These are not exact words from bill but crux of clauses related to national security is pretty much accurate in what i said above.

 

[TOPGUN]

Its a buy & give deal they give this in a sense buy us off as the above stated by Pakshaheen79 . These demands are incane they must be out of there damn minds to think we would wana go for these demands i already have lost some wat fate in our new f-16's bad news nothing good about it!!

 

[fhassan]

Best for Pakistan to reject the Bill, and F*** the F-16s

If it does not, It would be like prostitution.

 

[BATMAN]

Because there are clauses like

1)- Pakistan will give access to any Pakistani civilian who US think has been involved in nuclear technology acquisition and/or proliferation.

Know what is this? Should we accept it... It is equal to give US access to any scientist or technician in our nuclear program.

2)- There are also clauses like US will be consulted before promotions in armed forces.

Know I think without my clarification one can guess this is how ISI,MI and IB will be toppled.May be armed forces themselves as well.

I think these two are enough to tell you whole story.

NOTE: These are not exact words from bill but crux of clauses related to national security is pretty much accurate in what i said above.

Recent appointments of Naval Cheif and Air force Cheif could very well be an advice from US to Zardari.
US can still dictate appointments through Zardari.
In presence of bill US don't have to lick Zardari's balls but in absence they have to afford Zardari.

If i would be Zardari than i would never accept this bill for my personal benifits.

 

[SSGPA1]

Well no F-16 is a bad news but I am sure that Pakistan will turn it into an opportunity like we did in the 90s (JF-17).

This is a diplomatic failure for the US because with all the aid, finacial and military, Pakistanis still hate them. I could have used the word 'dislike' but hate is more appropriate.

It is a much bigger loss for the US and as Pakistan has other options.

 

[PakShaheen79]

BTW, I could not find that US threatening Kiyani news about F-16 if we not approve KL bill. Any source please.

 

[qsaark]

BTW, I could not find that US threatening Kiyani news about F-16 if we not approve KL bill. Any source please.

Dawn News.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Dawn News.

Opppss! Then it might be true.

 

[dbc]

Let's forget for a second that that statement was made by a pro-US politician, in a country where politics is synonymous with lying.

Ma'am, the alternative was very scary. The choice was simple, either build nuclear deterrence, or risk being annihilated within the century. And what's more, we were lead to believe it is okay as long as we were not harming global (read: American) interests. No country in this world would willingly leave their national defence at the mercy of other nations. It would have been unfair for anybody to ask that of us.

And despite all this, we kept the bombs under wraps until India left us no other choice in 1998. Doesn't that count for something? You may call that shooting ourselves in the foot, you have the right to do so. I'd rather shoot myself in the foot than get shot in the head. In any case, Pakistan was not the sole cause of the F-16 embargo. The US had much more to do with it. Particularly, American duality.

You’re in a rough neighborhood – I get it! I don’t begrudge you your nukes, although I’m not entirely convinced of its intrinsic value as a deterrent.

My “shoot yourself in the foot” criticism was meant to highlight Pakistani contribution to the F-16 debacle. Starting with Benazir Bhutto, what Benazir Bhutto did in 1989 was akin to stepping on the gas in a school zone knowing a police officer was lurking in the shadows with a speed gun.

Simple question to anyone who can answer, why did a smart women like Benazir place an order and pre-pay for 71 F-16’s in 1989 when she knew the risks – why not go for the Mirage 2K or equivalent non-US tech? Was she and PAF so enamored by the F-16’s that she gambled a fortune on a crapshoot? Clearly she miscalculated and yet no one here faults her for it. And then there is your former Chief Nuclear scientist Dr. Verbal Diarrhea (AQ Khan), this attention seeking narcissist blew the lid off Pakistan’s clandestine program in an interview to a London publication in ’87 and for this he was anointed Nation Hero despite costing Pakistan several billions in US and Japanese aid. It is easy to blame Bush, IMHO he had no choice he wasn’t going to risk impeachment over F-16’s to Pakistan in his first term in office.

No one is above the law; there may be extenuating circumstances the presence of an existential threat qualifies(Indian nukes) but Benazir closed that door when she told congress Pakistan did not need nukes if she was given F-16’s and other hi-tech weapons.

 

[ejaz007]

NA begins debate on K-L bill
Updated at: 2100 PST, Wednesday, October 07, 2009


ISLAMABAD: National Assembly has commenced debating Kerry-Lugar bill late on Wednesday evening, Geo news reported.

The Leader of Opposition in lower house Chaudhry Nisar Ahmed started debate on the bill meanwhile, Federal Minister for Parliamentary Affairs Babar Awan informed House that PM Gilani has advised Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi, currently on US visit, to provide assembly details on the controversial points of bill.

He said all the points on the K-L bill will be thoroughly reviewed and all of its recommendations will be watchfully considered.

NA begins debate on K-L bill

---------- Post added at 08:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 AM ----------

Obama briefed on Pak political situation
Updated at: 0635 PST, Thursday, October 08, 2009


WASHINGTON: A key meeting was held to brief US President Barrack Obama on Pakistan’s Political situations.

According to sources, US President were given briefing on Pakistan’s political situation regarding Kerry-Lugar (KL) Bill in the meeting held in White House.

Top level military, intelligence and political official attended the meeting.

Obama is considering to increase cooperation to counter Al Qaida.

Meanwhile current situation in Afghanistan was also discussed in the meeting.


Obama briefed on Pak political situation

 

[MastanKhan]

You’re in a rough neighborhood – I get it! I don’t begrudge you your nukes, although I’m not entirely convinced of its intrinsic value as a deterrent.

My “shoot yourself in the foot” criticism was meant to highlight Pakistani contribution to the F-16 debacle. Starting with Benazir Bhutto, what Benazir Bhutto did in 1989 was akin to stepping on the gas in a school zone knowing a police officer was lurking in the shadows with a speed gun.

Simple question to anyone who can answer, why did a smart women like Benazir place an order and pre-pay for 71 F-16’s in 1989 when she knew the risks – why not go for the Mirage 2K or equivalent non-US tech? Was she and PAF so enamored by the F-16’s that she gambled a fortune on a crapshoot? Clearly she miscalculated and yet no one here faults her for it. And then there is your former Chief Nuclear scientist Dr. Verbal Diarrhea (AQ Khan), this attention seeking narcissist blew the lid off Pakistan’s clandestine program in an interview to a London publication in ’87 and for this he was anointed Nation Hero despite costing Pakistan several billions in US and Japanese aid. It is easy to blame Bush, IMHO he had no choice he wasn’t going to risk impeachment over F-16’s to Pakistan in his first term in office.

No one is above the law; there may be extenuating circumstances the presence of an existential threat qualifies(Indian nukes) but Benazir closed that door when she told congress Pakistan did not need nukes if she was given F-16’s and other hi-tech weapons.

Hi,

You surprised me----you knew about Benazir paying cash for the F 16's---the F 16 debacle created by Benazir---.

I remember it like daylight---reading her comments in the pakistani paper at that time---before us others have asked for financing these planes---but us---we will pay cash upfront for these planes.

At time I told my friends---we are doomed---you never buy anything from u s on cash---and never upfront---always finance with a condition of big penalty and have a second alternative open.


It is shocking to see my pakistani friends still not understanding the F 16 fiasco---and accepting the fault---just because they gave us the leeway---didnot mean that we could get away with it.

That is why I have been talking about the switch over to the M2k at that time or even before in 83---84.

 

[Rank]

ITs not a K-Bill its PKTKKB

"Pakistan ko Taba karnay ka bill"