Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[ziaulislam]

Well, this is as good time as any to attempt in acquiring some additional F-16's to the 3-digit mark.

The US needs us for the Afghan peace process. They want out of Afghanistan. If and when they leave, they intend to only have a few hundred forces (for Security) on the ground & pack up everything else.

I haven't heard anything negative come out of Trump's mouth post Balakot. Even the 'Do More' narrative seems to be fading as of late. But, its still not going to give us FMF which we seek to fund such a venture.

So then we're back to square one or..., we make a deal for used ones - no strings attached.

its time we push for used f16 and get them upgraded on our own money..i doubt FMS is going to come
low hanging fruit are in europe, USA and jordan

 

[SABRE]

Well, this is as good time as any to attempt in acquiring some additional F-16's to the 3-digit mark.

The US needs us for the Afghan peace process. They want out of Afghanistan. If and when they leave, they intend to only have a few hundred forces (for Security) on the ground & pack up everything else.

I haven't heard anything negative come out of Trump's mouth post Balakot. Even the 'Do More' narrative seems to be fading as of late. But, its still not going to give us FMF which we seek to fund such a venture.

So then we're back to square one or..., we make a deal for used ones - no strings attached.

I don't mean to downplay your opinion or sound rude but this thought process has landed us in the hot waters that we have been trying to get out of first place. They pursue their interests and we pursue ours, but we end up losing more than them. This is not to say we should be subservient to them, but we should trade cautiously. Let them exist Afghanistan with a political settlement with the Taliban without any Pakistani condition to it unless contours of their settlement are detrimental to Pakistan. We should keep F-16 and AH-1Z attack helicopters on the sideline discussions, not on top of the Afghan settlement.

 

[Trailer23]

We should keep F-16 and AH-1Z attack helicopters on the sideline discussions, not on top of the Afghan settlement.

I agree. But the Americans aren't stupid either. They already know what is on our 'wish list' before we even ask for it, so taking them for a fool isn't an option.

They know full well what the current inventory of PAF F-16's is doing in minds of the adversary.

So, yeah, we can play 'sideline' game as you mentioned - but truth be told, they'll see it coming a mile away.

 

[mingle]

I don't mean to downplay your opinion or sound rude but this thought process has landed us in the hot waters that we have been trying to get out of first place. They pursue their interests and we pursue ours, but we end up losing more than them. This is not to say we should be subservient to them, but we should trade cautiously. Let them exist Afghanistan with a political settlement with the Taliban without any Pakistani condition to it unless contours of their settlement are detrimental to Pakistan. We should keep F-16 and AH-1Z attack helicopters on the sideline discussions, not on top of the Afghan settlement.

It's High time to engage LM for more F21s with suger coating rest of F16s with V upgrades which I doubt they will allow TAI this time more like Grummen herself will do it. I agree with u it should be on sideline but the way things r melting between US and Pak I feel we have a very shot for more F16s I wish this time make in Pak at kamra.today American senators were praiseing pak over india Pak tension issue along Afghanistan.

its time we push for used f16 and get them upgraded on our own money..i doubt FMS is going to come
low hanging fruit are in europe, USA and jordan

They won't release old frames unless we will buy atleast two or more Sqd of New that's where money is we can make a deal with new and used one as many as we can.if LM do lobby FMS will be no issue US still using our land as transit they still owe us money which can be spent on Arms purchases

I agree. But the Americans aren't stupid either. They already know what is on our 'wish list' before we even ask for it, so taking them for a fool isn't an option.

They know full well what the current inventory of PAF F-16's is doing in minds of the adversary.

So, yeah, we can play 'sideline' game as you mentioned - but truth be told, they'll see it coming a mile away.

India not gonna buy any offensive big ticket items from US no matter how much hunky dory between them today's they buying more T90s from Russia I see theior future defence suppliers still gona be Russia, French and isreal yes Korea as well. So I see F16s coming to Pak and American knows it we looking more new jets since it's worked great against India both psychologically and strike wise as well.

Circumstantial. There are a couple of factors that would be involved in acquiring brand new F-16's from the US.

1. The President of the United States has to agree, first. Lets say he does as goodwill gesture (Pakistan helping out with the Peace process in Afghanistan).

And lets be honest, every F-16 deal that has come towards the PAF has been linked to Afghanistan.

2. The matter has then gotta go to Capital Hill where Congress vote. Now the House of Representatives in power are Democrats which might work in our favor, but one can never be sure.

To my knowledge...all this applies to brand new F-16's from Lockheed Martin.

However..., if we were to seek Used F-16's from another nation - with obviously our own sovereign funds, I don't think the US would mind. They didn't have an issue with us buying (13 of them) a few years back from Jordan, after the US denied the sale for Eight through FMF.

Note: If PAF were to go down that path of buying F-16's from another nation, they need to keep in mind the events that took place earlier this year with Israel & Croatia. That deal didn't go through.

Croatia deal is same US wants them to buy new ones not used ones same with Pak we can do arrangement that we will buy new jets but allow us to procure used one too from other nations Jorden still have 15 jets plus EU has many. Trump and Shanahan both r business ppl they can struck deal if we add sweetner that all our old frames will go V upgrades there is more money for US vendors let's see how it play out but I see more F16s r coming to Pak

 

[GriffinsRule]

Croatian deal involved used Israeli F-16s with their own avionics that they tried to sell in order to undercut competition from others including the US, which is why US denied the third party transfer sale, as they require OEM stuff in any US sold system. The US asked Israeli to strip out all Israeli systems including electronics and radars from the jets before the sale. The Croats told Israel they would only buy them as Israel had initially put them forward with all their own gizmos and told them to figure it out with the US. Since they could not, the sale fell through.

This should also give a good idea for posters here who think they Pakistan can just villy nilly upgrade any of its F-16s with non-US radars or avionics etc as some people have been pointing towards Turkey as a source of upgrades if we cant get Block 70s from the US. I can tell you, it would never happen as PAF would loose all after sales support and there would be pretty harsh penalties on Turkey as well.

 

[baqai]

whether we get more F-16's or not we should hype and create noise about getting them ... just to **** with minds of Indian media and armed forces lol

 

[weqi]

NO DOUBT F-16 is an effective arsenal but efforts in acquiring those machines (making political ground suitable international and nationally) and cost and regulations over use making it more complicated as compared to F-17 why f-17 is not going in integration with vixen 1000 e and other better engines from Sweden if i see indians who have complete support from US but still thay are praying tejas to take off (for god sake)

 

[Signalian]

It's High time to engage LM for more F21s with suger coating rest of F16s with V upgrades which I doubt they will allow TAI this time more like Grummen herself will do it. I agree with u it should be on sideline but the way things r melting between US and Pak I feel we have a very shot for more F16s I wish this time make in Pak at kamra.today American senators were praiseing pak over india Pak tension issue along Afghanistan.


They won't release old frames unless we will buy atleast two or more Sqd of New that's where money is we can make a deal with new and used one as many as we can.if LM do lobby FMS will be no issue US still using our land as transit they still owe us money which can be spent on Arms purchases


India not gonna buy any offensive big ticket items from US no matter how much hunky dory between them today's they buying more T90s from Russia I see theior future defence suppliers still gona be Russia, French and isreal yes Korea as well. So I see F16s coming to Pak and American knows it we looking more new jets since it's worked great against India both psychologically and strike wise as well.


Croatia deal is same US wants them to buy new ones not used ones same with Pak we can do arrangement that we will buy new jets but allow us to procure used one too from other nations Jorden still have 15 jets plus EU has many. Trump and Shanahan both r business ppl they can struck deal if we add sweetner that all our old frames will go V upgrades there is more money for US vendors let's see how it play out but I see more F16s r coming to Pak

would PAF buy 18 F-16 Block 70 for around 3 Billion USD ?
Highly doubt it.

 

[Signalian]

its time we push for used f16 and get them upgraded on our own money..i doubt FMS is going to come
low hanging fruit are in europe, USA and jordan

Lets say PAF has 3 billion USD to spend, which i doubt it has in reality, anyways, pick one option.

1. 50-60 x J-10C
OR
2. 18-20 x F-16 V/Block 70
OR
3. Upgrade all PAF F-16's to V standard
OR
4. 70 x JF-17 Block III
OR
5. 24-30 used F-16's and upgrade them to block 52 standard.

 

[fatman17]

Aa, Isn't the Zulu not being delivered due to ristrictions on any sale or is that due to FMF ristriction too?

In due time, why not PAF test if sovereign funds route is still available or not...the immidiate next requirement that can easily be managed with own funding is the even more more potent C-7 if not the D version of AMRAAM.

Yes, now but the last time US congress refused thru FMF, but conceded that they are free to buy with own funds.

 

[ziaulislam]

Lets say PAF has 3 billion USD to spend, which i doubt it has in reality, anyways, pick one option.

1. 50-60 x J-10C
OR
2. 18-20 x F-16 V/Block 70
OR
3. Upgrade all PAF F-16's to V standard
OR
4. 70 x JF-17 Block III
OR
5. 24-30 used F-16's and upgrade them to block 52 standard.

Indonesia got 24 block52 used for 700 million nothing was paid by usa tax money and this included trainings and some weapons

But either its going to be 4. Or 5.
Paf doesnt consider new f16 cost effective unless combined with used f16s, FMF

 

[weqi]

Lets say PAF has 3 billion USD to spend, which i doubt it has in reality, anyways, pick one option.

1. 50-60 x J-10C
OR
2. 18-20 x F-16 V/Block 70
OR
3. Upgrade all PAF F-16's to V standard
OR
4. 70 x JF-17 Block III
OR
5. 24-30 used F-16's and upgrade them to block 52 standard.

3. Upgrade all PAF F-16's to V standard

 

[Trailer23]

would PAF buy 18 F-16 Block 70 for around 3 Billion USD ?
Highly doubt it.

Me too. Unless the payment could be covered in installments in a span of 4-5 Years.

1. 50-60 x J-10C
OR
2. 18-20 x F-16 V/Block 70
OR
3. Upgrade all PAF F-16's to V standard
OR
4. 70 x JF-17 Block III
OR
5. 24-30 used F-16's and upgrade them to block 52 standard.

I was thinking more down the line of Option 5 or Option 1. Block52 are pretty modern as it is. We can always upgrade them later when we have funds - a decade later.

3. Upgrade all PAF F-16's to V standard

I would be against going down that path for the time being. India will be getting the Rafales in the years to come & in the next couple of years are intending to get around 20 Soviet-era MiG-29's for $900 Million. Lets not forget the order they plan on placing shortly where the F-21 is a contender.

Look, its not everyday we are able to get our hands on brand new or used F-16's. Try to recall how many JF-17's have been inducted in the PAF since we received our last Block52 (not counting the Jordanian F-16's)?

I'm not certain if it will ever happen. But if there is even the slightest possibility that we can acquire additional F-16's, I say we go for it. Also, if the US feel that Pakistan is seriously considering buying the J-10c's*, they might be inclined to loosen up - just to keep us in their corner.

*Unless there is something already in the pipeline that we're not aware of.

 

[mingle]

3. Upgrade all PAF F-16's to V standard

Plus 36 to 40 blk 70 gives very potent punch will negate Rafale purchase for good.

 

[Trailer23]

Plus 36 to 40 blk 70 gives very potent punch will negate Rafale purchase for good.

36 to 40 blk70's!!! Are you serious?!!

What're you trying to do...bankrupt the nation?

We can't afford those...

We can't even go for 18-20 blk70's unless the payment was spread out in years.