Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Path-Finder]

even j-10 d sir koi 5th gen ki baat karo ab

5th Gen is the next decade, need something to bridge the gap.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Just like Pakistan...Venezuela loves their Vipers a lot. They will not give it up....

The logistical and practical details notwithstanding, Chavez sought a way to free Venezuela from reliance on US training and parts. He may view buying a new fleet of fighters from Russia as an easy solution to his decaying F-16 squadron. Only six of the 21 remaining F-16s in the Venezuelan fleet are fully mission capable, while a proposed US overhaul of the F-16 squadron remained on hold.

The US moved to block a proposed $100 million Israeli update of Venezuela's American-bought F-16s
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/venezuela/airforce-modernization.htm

 

[Imran Khan]

5th Gen is the next decade, need something to bridge the gap.

thunder is here for fill all the gaps

 

[GriffinsRule]

The logistical and practical details notwithstanding, Chavez sought a way to free Venezuela from reliance on US training and parts. He may view buying a new fleet of fighters from Russia as an easy solution to his decaying F-16 squadron. Only six of the 21 remaining F-16s in the Venezuelan fleet are fully mission capable, while a proposed US overhaul of the F-16 squadron remained on hold.

The US moved to block a proposed $100 million Israeli update of Venezuela's American-bought F-16s
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/venezuela/airforce-modernization.htm

Buying Russian aircraft is now out of question for Pakistan as well for now.
US passed a new law, “Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act” (CAATSA), that sanctions countries buying "significant" Russian defense equipment. Su-35s would certainly fall in that category.

 

[The Accountant]

thunder is here for fill all the gaps

Fifth generation cannot be fielded in numbers due to high cost and very low availablity ... Prkme job will remain strike mission whereas air defence and other roles needs to be covered specially to counter rafael we need a 4.5 generation fighter

 

[Sine Nomine]

Buying Russian aircraft is now out of question for Pakistan as well for now.
US passed a new law, “Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act” (CAATSA), that sanctions countries buying "significant" Russian defense equipment. Su-35s would certainly fall in that category.

Of we have huge Pockets not a big deal.

 

[Armchair]

Maybe Pak can offer Venezuela some JF-17s as barter for their F-16s.

 

[Signalian]

Buying Russian aircraft is now out of question for Pakistan as well for now.
US passed a new law, “Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act” (CAATSA), that sanctions countries buying "significant" Russian defense equipment. Su-35s would certainly fall in that category.

One solid step has to be taken to get a new bird which is more capable than F-16 to get out of the strings attached misery.

For F-16 replacement, SU-35 and SU-30MKI are similar in many aspects, if it would have been any other bird offered by Russians capable of taking on all F-16 roles in a better way, PAF might have gone for it by risking embargo on F-16's as it has happened in past too. SU-34 is a strike aircraft, Mig-35 is similar to Mig-29 flown by IAF, no other modern option apart from SU-57 but SU-57 is almost out of equation.
For Mirages replacement, SU-24 and Mig-27 are older generation aircraft. SU-34 is excellent and too expensive. SU-25 is not Multirole as Mirages. That's Russia.

Now US, F-35 A/B/C, F-15 C/E, F-18 E/F, F-16 C/D/E/F are all out.
European Gripen and Rafale are out. EF2K is expensive too, three-four times expensive than J-10 and possibly sanction prone.
Chinese J-10 and J-31 are two options. J-10 is inferior or comparable to Block 52+ and MLU, its like replacing same class aircraft, not worth the money spend. J-31 however could be a good option, if PAF is satisfied with chinese engines and stealth design.

Otherwise lots of second hand Mirage2000, again operated by IAF, and probably second hand F-16's, if US allows.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Used Mirage 2000s are not a bad idea, regardless if they have been in IAF service or not. They are certainly F-16 contemporaries and much more capable then Mirage 3/5s. The issue is, they have to be -9 variant or better to be really of value in this age. Not sure if there are used ones in number available from the French stock. The only other option is Qatari aircraft in a few years as they start getting the F-15s, Rafales and EF-2000s

 

[araz]

Used Mirage 2000s are not a bad idea, regardless if they have been in IAF service or not. They are certainly F-16 contemporaries and much more capable then Mirage 3/5s. The issue is, they have to be -9 variant or better to be really of value in this age. Not sure if there are used ones in number available from the French stock. The only other option is Qatari aircraft in a few years as they start getting the F-15s, Rafales and EF-2000s

Muradk who was a senior poster at the board and ex PAF Asaid in 02 that there was a move to evaluate the M2K5 from French stock. 59 samples were available with 20 yrs worth of spares. The idea died down as the price quoted was 60 million per aircraft. Capabipities wise we dont get any advantage. It seems more and more likely the jseries from China might be the answer if the Chinese will help.
A

 

[GriffinsRule]

They might be the same as the J series in capability, but I would rate French machines ahead of any Chinese designs from the 90s. We can see how robust even the 70s era Mirage airframe has been and no doubt the same is going to be true for Mirage 2000s. I doubt the same longevity can be expected from earlier Chinese designs including the J-10. It is pretty well known that the original inlet design for example was poor and had to be reinforced later with additional metal braces before they completely did away with it for the dsi inlet design. But the aircraft fundamentally is the first foray by the Chinese in a design that might be called their own. I would not trust it to be on the same level as any Western counterparts not to mention the weaponry available from the Mirage 2000 would give PAF additional flexibility

 

[aftab_s81]

Do we have enough funds to acquire Mirages? Remember French backed out from JF-17 avionics naming lack of funds with Pakistan (although some people claim that's because of Indian MRCA, French did not want to lose that contract).

They might be the same as the J series in capability, but I would rate French machines ahead of any Chinese designs from the 90s. We can see how robust even the 70s era Mirage airframe has been and no doubt the same is going to be true for Mirage 2000s. I doubt the same longevity can be expected from earlier Chinese designs including the J-10. It is pretty well known that the original inlet design for example was poor and had to be reinforced later with additional metal braces before they completely did away with it for the dsi inlet design. But the aircraft fundamentally is the first foray by the Chinese in a design that might be called their own. I would not trust it to be on the same level as any Western counterparts not to mention the weaponry available from the Mirage 2000 would give PAF additional flexibility

 

[MastanKhan]

Do we have enough funds to acquire Mirages? Remember French backed out from JF-17 avionics naming lack of funds with Pakistan (although some people claim that's because of Indian MRCA, French did not want to lose that contract).

Hi,

It was not the French who backed out---it was the Paf that deceived the french multiple times---the french gave Paf a taste of their own medicine---.

As I have stated multiple times---Rafale production line was dying---the french were desperate for an order---otherwise their fighter aircraft industry would be ruined if they lost engineers and technicians because factory was only building 1 aircraft a month---.

Paf never understood that part---they snuck in to test the rafale and Mirage 2000/9---but tried to trick the French to do the wind tunnel tests for the JF17's---.

Then to top it off---the Pak navy decided to go for the german subs rather than the french subs---.

It defies logic---you have french subs---you are trained by the french and given a certain amount of TOT---and yet you decide for the german subs---even though---the Agosta 90's were the most advanced subs of their time in the region---.

This total deception has been from pakistan's side---and it left the gate open for the enemy to sneak in---wave a bigger carrot in front of the french---and the french said by by---.

That decision by the french has hurt the JF17 program so bad---that it has yet to recover from that---it has put the JF17 program and the aircraft 10 years behind.

 

[Raider 21]

Hi,

It was not the French who backed out---it was the Paf that deceived the french multiple times---the french gave Paf a taste of their own medicine---.

As I have stated multiple times---Rafale production line was dying---the french were desperate for an order---otherwise their fighter aircraft industry would be ruined if they lost engineers and technicians because factory was only building 1 aircraft a month---.

Paf never understood that part---they snuck in to test the rafale and Mirage 2000/9---but tried to trick the French to do the wind tunnel tests for the JF17's---.

Then to top it off---the Pak navy decided to go for the german subs rather than the french subs---.

It defies logic---you have french subs---you are trained by the french and given a certain amount of TOT---and yet you decide for the german subs---even though---the Agosta 90's were the most advanced subs of their time in the region---.

This total deception has been from pakistan's side---and it left the gate open for the enemy to sneak in---wave a bigger carrot in front of the french---and the french said by by---.

That decision by the french has hurt the JF17 program so bad---that it has yet to recover from that---it has put the JF17 program and the aircraft 10 years behind.

They never evaluated the Rafale. They never evaluated the Mirage 2000-9...that is custom built variant specifically for the UAE Air Force.

The Rafale production has been increasing since 2002. You probably meant the sales issue part.

French government deceived (not Dassault Aviation) PAF for the sale of 40 Mirage 2000-5s back in the 1990s....but that is a topic for another time and thread.

The JF-17 program is largely Chinese influenced with no French input in the development area. Ask the chairman of the aerospace engineering department at Tuskegee University at Alabama....he has better answers as he was part of the pioneering team specialising in aerodynamics.

 

[HRK]

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