Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Armchair]

Let bygones be bygones, right now there is no opportunity for Rafales, and no realistic opportunity for small numbers of Mirage-2000s. What is being faced is essentially a stop-gap between the JF-17 and the Azm.

J-10s / Su-35s / JH-7s / J-31s are perfectly capable of filling this stop-gap.

Talking about J-10 inlet issues, which have been fixed a very, very long time ago is quite inappropriate to this conversation. J-10Cs are more than a match for F-16 Block 52s.

Regarding Su-35s, they are not Su-30MKI. Please look at the spec sheet regarding basic parameters like TWR, wing loading. They are brand new airframe designs, brand new FBW, brand new engines (117s is essentially the same engine as on the PAKFA!). There is a reason the Chinese bought them despite having very advanced FLANKER variants themselves.

It is time to stop the lobby that makes up stories, creates a fake narrative and forces Western aircraft down the throat of Pakistan. Now the story has reached incredulous proportions comparing retired French Mirages with modern Chinese, brand new aircraft, with AESA radars, modern jammers and IRST. Did anyone bother to even look at the specs of the engines? It may be worth to investigate the tech era and thrust ratings on the Mirage2k engines... but then the issue may not be technical, it may be psycho-sociological - the impact of the Macauley Plan at work.

 

[MastanKhan]

1994
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1995
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1998
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Hi,

" The cash for the F16's was locked up--- "

The cash was locked up because Paf kept paying for the F16's enevn though
the sanctions were on---.

they could have stopped payments and gone a different way---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Let bygones be bygones, right now there is no opportunity for Rafales, and no realistic opportunity for small numbers of Mirage-2000s. What is being faced is essentially a stop-gap between the JF-17 and the Azm.

J-10s / Su-35s / JH-7s / J-31s are perfectly capable of filling this stop-gap.

Talking about J-10 inlet issues, which have been fixed a very, very long time ago is quite inappropriate to this conversation. J-10Cs are more than a match for F-16 Block 52s.

Regarding Su-35s, they are not Su-30MKI. Please look at the spec sheet regarding basic parameters like TWR, wing loading. They are brand new airframe designs, brand new FBW, brand new engines (117s is essentially the same engine as on the PAKFA!). There is a reason the Chinese bought them despite having very advanced FLANKER variants themselves.

It is time to stop the lobby that makes up stories, creates a fake narrative and forces Western aircraft down the throat of Pakistan. Now the story has reached incredulous proportions comparing retired French Mirages with modern Chinese, brand new aircraft, with AESA radars, modern jammers and IRST. Did anyone bother to even look at the specs of the engines? It may be worth to investigate the tech era and thrust ratings on the Mirage2k engines... but then the issue may not be technical, it may be psycho-sociological - the impact of the Macauley Plan at work.

Hi,

I am pretty sure that you have heard this comment on the board---

" it brings nothing new to the table ---"----. That comment only an idiot would say that---total imbeciles would preach that concept---.

The SU35 did not bring much to the table tactically---but tactically---it filled up an immediate void that the chinese airforce had---.

Chinese air force is deperately short of tier 1 fighter air crafts---with the 35 su35's---it immediately got 2 sqdrn strength right away---.

My country's children and adults are so stupid---that they have no concept what an extra 100 aircraft of the same capability like the F16 BLK52 would do to their force projection---.

 

[Raider 21]

Hi,

I am pretty sure that you have heard this comment on the board---

" it brings nothing new to the table ---"----. That comment only an idiot would say that---total imbeciles would preach that concept---.

The SU35 did not bring much to the table tactically---but tactically---it filled up an immediate void that the chinese airforce had---.

Chinese air force is deperately short of tier 1 fighter air crafts---with the 35 su35's---it immediately got 2 sqdrn strength right away---.

My country's children and adults are so stupid---that they have no concept what an extra 100 aircraft of the same capability like the F16 BLK52 would do to their force projection---.

Your country's children and adults learned from you, hence as smart and stupid......(just throwing in some humour there sir., if it offends you then send me a letter to No.1 PFT)....after all the younger generation learns from the preaching of the elder generations.....

 

[Thorough Pro]

US can shove it's laws up its stinky arse or down its filthy throat (the same thing), why should we care about their laws?

Buying Russian aircraft is now out of question for Pakistan as well for now.
US passed a new law, “Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act” (CAATSA), that sanctions countries buying "significant" Russian defense equipment. Su-35s would certainly fall in that category.

 

[Windjammer]

https://www.facebook.com/

 

[GriffinsRule]

US can shove it's laws up its stinky arse or down its filthy throat (the same thing), why should we care about their laws?

We have to care because we are weak economically and dependent on the US for banking, trade, arms and basically everything in between internationally. Saying we don't care is bluster, not reality. Otherwise that oil pipeline from Iran would've been completed years ago, just as an example.
Besides its wasn't very likely for Pakistan to go buying the Su-35s at a $80M a pop anyways anytime soon so it doesn't matter. Lets see how this law pans out and what impact has on the big Russian weapon importers India and China. If they get exemption, the law would just be hot air

 

[Armchair]

We have to care because we are weak economically and dependent on the US for banking, trade, arms and basically everything in between internationally. Saying we don't care is bluster, not reality. Otherwise that oil pipeline from Iran would've been completed years ago, just as an example.
Besides its wasn't very likely for Pakistan to go buying the Su-35s at a $80M a pop anyways anytime soon so it doesn't matter. Lets see how this law pans out and what impact has on the big Russian weapon importers India and China. If they get exemption, the law would just be hot air

Are you an economist?
Pakistan is dependent on US for banking? Or do you mean the elites of Pakistan are dependent on ... you probably mean Western banks in general.

Where does this mindset come from where the US tells you what you can buy and where you can buy, and then people of a certain category and peculiar background show up as experts telling Pakistanis they must.

Bluster, imho, is when someone talks about a country that built nuclear weapons with hostile intent from most of the world and claim it has to follow sanctions against Russia, and cannot buy weapons from them.

What does "basically everything in between internationally" mean? Please expand, since you're such an expert in the field, educate us.

So Pak should go for used M2K which was offered (back in the day, since you are an economist, you must know there is something called the inflation rate), for 60 million a piece. And you've determined Su-35s will be 80 million a piece. Let us assume you're right about the price. One is affordable and the right aircraft, while the other is somehow unaffordable. It would be most enlightening if you can expand on why that is so.

PS: I vote for M2K. Since it will be the end of Pakistan as we know it if it buys Su-35s. What with banks worldwide refusing to trade with Pakistan, the entire West refusing to trade with her, no arms, nothing, and basically "everything" will be blocked. There is only one sane solution - buy M2Ks. Even Macauley would demand so.

 

[PDF]

J-10s / Su-35s / JH-7s / J-31s are perfectly capable of filling this stop-gap.

What about Eurofighter Typhoon. I know we do have financial constraints but If we do believe that Typhoons can fill up the gap, we can manage somehow. (We have good relations with Italy. And militarily UK is also a good partner.)

 

[CriticalThought]

Are you an economist?
Pakistan is dependent on US for banking? Or do you mean the elites of Pakistan are dependent on ... you probably mean Western banks in general.

Where does this mindset come from where the US tells you what you can buy and where you can buy, and then people of a certain category and peculiar background show up as experts telling Pakistanis they must.

Bluster, imho, is when someone talks about a country that built nuclear weapons with hostile intent from most of the world and claim it has to follow sanctions against Russia, and cannot buy weapons from them.

What does "basically everything in between internationally" mean? Please expand, since you're such an expert in the field, educate us.

So Pak should go for used M2K which was offered (back in the day, since you are an economist, you must know there is something called the inflation rate), for 60 million a piece. And you've determined Su-35s will be 80 million a piece. Let us assume you're right about the price. One is affordable and the right aircraft, while the other is somehow unaffordable. It would be most enlightening if you can expand on why that is so.

PS: I vote for M2K. Since it will be the end of Pakistan as we know it if it buys Su-35s. What with banks worldwide refusing to trade with Pakistan, the entire West refusing to trade with her, no arms, nothing, and basically "everything" will be blocked. There is only one sane solution - buy M2Ks. Even Macauley would demand so.

I am no economist, but I can certainly discern friend from foe. America, Britain, and France are the front runners in raising fingers at Pakistan in FATF. Any weapons bought from them, or dependent on their continuing support, would be albatross around our necks. Anyone proposing them has an agenda to push Pakistan into further subjugation. I hereby declare MastanKhan a traitor and his consorts low intelligence idiots who are attracted to mediocrity like bees to garbage.

 

[MastanKhan]

Your country's children and adults learned from you, hence as smart and stupid......(just throwing in some humour there sir., if it offends you then send me a letter to No.1 PFT)....after all the younger generation learns from the preaching of the elder generations.....

Hi,

They did not learn from me---. Otherwise I would not be talking like that over here---.

I did not learn from my older generation---with a different thinking---I was always in clash with my father---uncles---grandfather---and all the seniors---.

What they looked at and saw---looked different to me and I saw it different---.

It is still the same but has become more advanced.

When you are 16/17/18/19 and look in the eye of your father and grandfather and uncles and tell them that they are wrong in their thinking---but then I did not have enough knowledge to back up my claims---so---there used to be a massive conflict in the house---.

And as for " offends "---other than profanity and vulgarity---I don't get offended at much---.

 

[Armchair]

What about Eurofighter Typhoon. I know we do have financial constraints but If we do believe that Typhoons can fill up the gap, we can manage somehow. (We have good relations with Italy. And militarily UK is also a good partner.)

Hi Musa,

I like the Eurofighter. Always been a fan. There is a chance with the Tranche 1s it seems, but not sure about anything beyond that. Tranche 1s however don't have any upgrade potential and the PAF does need something that can strike... Still, Eurofighters, tranche 2/3 would be a major game changer, IMHO for PAF. There is nothing in its class that compares it in a2a except F-22.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Are you an economist?
Pakistan is dependent on US for banking? Or do you mean the elites of Pakistan are dependent on ... you probably mean Western banks in general.

Where does this mindset come from where the US tells you what you can buy and where you can buy, and then people of a certain category and peculiar background show up as experts telling Pakistanis they must.

Bluster, imho, is when someone talks about a country that built nuclear weapons with hostile intent from most of the world and claim it has to follow sanctions against Russia, and cannot buy weapons from them.

What does "basically everything in between internationally" mean? Please expand, since you're such an expert in the field, educate us.

So Pak should go for used M2K which was offered (back in the day, since you are an economist, you must know there is something called the inflation rate), for 60 million a piece. And you've determined Su-35s will be 80 million a piece. Let us assume you're right about the price. One is affordable and the right aircraft, while the other is somehow unaffordable. It would be most enlightening if you can expand on why that is so.

PS: I vote for M2K. Since it will be the end of Pakistan as we know it if it buys Su-35s. What with banks worldwide refusing to trade with Pakistan, the entire West refusing to trade with her, no arms, nothing, and basically "everything" will be blocked. There is only one sane solution - buy M2Ks. Even Macauley would demand so.

Yes I am an economist by education. But that is not relevant to the point I was making so I will briefly explain why you are so ill-informed on how economic sanctions work and why Pakistan can't do much at all due to its structural weaknesses (nuclear weapons don't make a country powerful).

There are 3 types of economic sanctions, broadly speaking. First are ones being imposed against Iran/N Korea for instance where you can not do any trade or business with that country (explains why Pakistan couldn't follow through with the oil pipeline when there were sanctions prior to the Iran deal).
Secondary to those are targeted sanctions where individuals or entities are sanctioned for whatever behavior the US doesn't like and you can't do business with them. It also includes asset freezes etc if they are any within the US banking systems.
Finally, and what this law seems to indicate, are sanctions that block your access to the US ... ie, say you are dealing with Russia in this case, even though it might be completely unrelated to US, they can block your access to the US banking facilities, markets, trade etc.

Now we all know how precarious Pakistan's economy is. You to think we could weather the storm of economic sanctions? Don't mistake prior weapon sale restrictions on Pakistan as real sanctions btw ... economic activity was allowed to continue under them.
When countries with weak macroeconmic conditions are hit with sanctions that would limit their access to international capital, the end result is detrimental impact on the financial and banking stability of those countries, stymied economic growth, inflation, political instability and even civil war or worsening humanitarian situation like shortage of medical supplies, malnutrition, etc (happened in Iraq, happening in Venezuela as an eg)
Id even add that Pakistan might fare worse as it has nothing to fall back on as is the case with Russian, Iran, Iraq (all major oil producers). What would Pakistan sell to say Russia or China? Mangoes and textiles perhaps?

Regardless of whether the sanctions are effective in meeting their intended purposes, my point was that Pakistan is not in the position to disregard US sanctions on other countries as it has way more to lose then to gain if it chooses to ignore them. I think that point would be clear to anyone, economist or not.

 

[Armchair]

Yes I am an economist by education. But that is not relevant to the point I was making so I will briefly explain why you are so ill-informed on how economic sanctions work and why Pakistan can't do much at all due to its structural weaknesses (nuclear weapons don't make a country powerful).

There are 3 types of economic sanctions, broadly speaking. First are ones being imposed against Iran/N Korea for instance where you can not do any trade or business with that country (explains why Pakistan couldn't follow through with the oil pipeline when there were sanctions prior to the Iran deal).
Secondary to those are targeted sanctions where individuals or entities are sanctioned for whatever behavior the US doesn't like and you can't do business with them. It also includes asset freezes etc if they are any within the US banking systems.
Finally, and what this law seems to indicate, are sanctions that block your access to the US ... ie, say you are dealing with Russia in this case, even though it might be completely unrelated to US, they can block your access to the US banking facilities, markets, trade etc.

Now we all know how precarious Pakistan's economy is. You to think we could weather the storm of economic sanctions? Don't mistake prior weapon sale restrictions on Pakistan as real sanctions btw ... economic activity was allowed to continue under them.
When countries with weak macroeconmic conditions are hit with sanctions that would limit their access to international capital, the end result is detrimental impact on the financial and banking stability of those countries, stymied economic growth, inflation, political instability and even civil war or worsening humanitarian situation like shortage of medical supplies, malnutrition, etc (happened in Iraq, happening in Venezuela as an eg)
Id even add that Pakistan might fare worse as it has nothing to fall back on as is the case with Russian, Iran, Iraq (all major oil producers). What would Pakistan sell to say Russia or China? Mangoes and textiles perhaps?

Regardless of whether the sanctions are effective in meeting their intended purposes, my point was that Pakistan is not in the position to disregard US sanctions on other countries as it has way more to lose then to gain if it chooses to ignore them. I think that point would be clear to anyone, economist or not.

Actually I happen to teach Economics for a living and no, your point isn't clear nor does it make sense. CAATSA is not being taken seriously by any country. To claim CAATSA would have such a wide ranging effect on Pakistan for buying weapons from Russia is full of holes.

You're overplaying the impact of CAATSA to push your claim of buying retired, used Mirage 2000s at 60 million dollars a piece.

 

[GriffinsRule]

If you don't understand how financial markets work, that is fine. As for your claim, its not like I am somehow going to make money if PAF bought M2Ks ... I dont need to push anything, just expressing my opinion. But I can bet PAF will not be buying any Sukhois anytime soon if ever (nothing against the jet). If the being $80M a pop wasn't reason enough, CAATSA now will certainly kill any chance of it happening. You can believe otherwise if it suits you