Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Haris Ali2140]

Sir,
No doubt PAF loves the F-16's like with the Mirrage but we know that when PAF bought the F-16's they were thinking of going on the same lines they had done in the past by procuring more Mirrage III and V's from those countries that were decommissioning them. PAF planners had hoped that 40 years down the line USA would have removed the F-16 from their main forces and would have replaced them but they had never thought that USA will continue to upgrade and continue to procure and use them for another 20-30 years as drones along with the F-22 and F-35's.

Moreover PAF was also surprised to see how the US Navy destroyed the F-14's so that Iran could not get any thing. This is why PAF had to rethink on how can Pakistan could circumvent and procure more F-16's, the same old files were brought up again and suggestions were asked where everyone decided that PAF still can procure those F-16's that are manufactured in Europe and even procure those from Jordan and other Muslim countries. In reality when PAF wanted to procure some of the Jordanian F-16 they were refused by USA rather those F-16 were bought by private owner in USA and upgraded. Today they are for sale on e-bay but not to Pakistan.

Its about time PAF must decide what our priorities are and how to work around with the F-16's we have in the time of need incase it moves not as planned. Today PAF is in dire need of LIFT platforms that can also be converted into light attack aircraft so that the main fighters can be free for more engagements.

The amount for procuring 35 F16blk70/72 can buy around 150-200 KAI-T-50 Golden Eagle/ FA-50 which uses the same weapons that are on F-16. This will cost around 40-50 mil USD similar to what JF-17blk3 costs.

The question is will Blk-3 be enough to prevent Indians from doing another 26 after Rafales arrive???

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Sir,
No doubt PAF loves the F-16's like with the Mirrage but we know that when PAF bought the F-16's they were thinking of going on the same lines they had done in the past by procuring more Mirrage III and V's from those countries that were decommissioning them. PAF planners had hoped that 40 years down the line USA would have removed the F-16 from their main forces and would have replaced them but they had never thought that USA will continue to upgrade and continue to procure and use them for another 20-30 years as drones along with the F-22 and F-35's.

Moreover PAF was also surprised to see how the US Navy destroyed the F-14's so that Iran could not get any thing. This is why PAF had to rethink on how can Pakistan could circumvent and procure more F-16's, the same old files were brought up again and suggestions were asked where everyone decided that PAF still can procure those F-16's that are manufactured in Europe and even procure those from Jordan and other Muslim countries. In reality when PAF wanted to procure some of the Jordanian F-16 they were refused by USA rather those F-16 were bought by private owner in USA and upgraded. Today they are for sale on e-bay but not to Pakistan.

Its about time PAF must decide what our priorities are and how to work around with the F-16's we have in the time of need incase it moves not as planned. Today PAF is in dire need of LIFT platforms that can also be converted into light attack aircraft so that the main fighters can be free for more engagements.

The amount for procuring 35 F16blk70/72 can buy around 150-200 KAI-T-50 Golden Eagle/ FA-50 which uses the same weapons that are on F-16. This will cost around 40-50 mil USD similar to what JF-17blk3 costs.

If the PAF opts for a LIFT, it will likely be the L-15B with Ukrainian AI-322F turbofan engines. It technically is the only design that meets the PAF's original ASR for a LIFT, i.e., afterburning engines with an air-intercept radar.

The others (e.g., M346 and L-159) might have the electronics, but not the actual engine the PAF was looking for. In 2019, the PAF CAS did say the LIFT 'doesn't need an afterburning engine,' but what I heard from an instructor pilot at IDEAS 2018, the actual need is for a LIFT with an afterburning engine. Otherwise, it doesn't add much to K-8.

But I don't think the LIFT category would add to the PAF fighter fleet. The most sensible solution for building out the fighter inventory is with the JF-17. Others, such as L-15B or even FA-50, are simply not cost-effective.

 

[HRK]

The question is will Blk-3 be enough to prevent Indians from doing another 26 after Rafales arrive???

a wrong question blk-III or no blk-III what India did in Feb last year was a political need, if and when fascist circles of India may find themselves in need they may perform another stunt according their need ....

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I certainly believe, if the Indian planners envy of something in our arsenal, now its for sure not the F-16s which might have been the case in the past. Yes we shot down their jets using AMRAAM equipped F-16s, the Meteors would take this advantage away not that far in future and we surely arent going to get the 120Ds due to obvious reasons, and hence this edge will be lost. The thing that worries their military planners now is how fast our JF-17 has matured and the huge numbers of such jets replacing our legacy fighters quickly and that too with a exponential leap in capabilties.

Secondly the price, the F-16 comes at especially after the development of JF-17 block 3 certainly doesnt justify the difference in the capabilties between the two. Not taking anything away, the F-16 still remains a remains a superior fighting machine than the JF-17, but for how long? For one, F-16 has never been able to provide us the so-called real Multirole capabilties that the JF-17 now offers, air to sea being the one, which had been denied to us for so long! Now we have to ask ourselves, are the $5.7 billion dollars worth of 36 F-16s better than the 100 extra JF-17s block 3s that could be inducted at a fraction of that price? Numbers again have their own quality!

Lastly, our dependence on F-16s in our Arsenal remains our weakness which stands ripe to be exploited by India sooner or later. The evolving strategic situation in the region means, the US would always be looking at us the same way in the foreseeable future. Hence more the F-16s, more the 'leverage' Indians would be having 10 years from now in their dealings with the US and more vulnerable we would be at that point of time!

F-16 is an excellent machine and an automatic choice had we been a strong economy. With low on finances, even if we buy it, we would never be able to field it in numbers. IMHO, in the right hands, 3 Jf-17 Block 3s would be much more effective in an aerial combat than a single F-16 Block 70.

I look at it slightly differently. The asymmetric response in Swift Retort -- i.e., outnumbering the Indians with more jets and using EW/ECM/AEW&C -- worked. You can obviously improve that at a micro-level by improving your own communication links, acquiring newer/better EW/ECM (e.g., GaN-based), etc. But what about the macro-level?

To replicate Swift Retorts frequently, and at scale (by doing the same thing simultaneously across many different areas), takes a lot of resources. Simply three of those operations could use up to 1/3 of our available fighters -- that isn't sustainable. Not only that, but F-16 and Mirage use is finite. If -- God forbid -- we lose one of either, it's gone permanently, we can't replace it (which is why I'd rather the PAF remove Block-52/MLUs from demonstration flights).

So, what's the solution here? It's the JF-17.

You need enough Block-IIIs and JF-17Bs. The Block-IIIs (with their AESA radars and PL-15) can offer air-to-air, while the JF-17Bs can (with the right munitions) take the lead on strike and EW/ECM. Not only that, but they can operate on the same TDL. Couple that with ground-based LACM launchers, GL-SDB-type systems, etc.

 

[Trailer23]

Took me a while, but I think this will give a clearer picture in the difference of price. The price of the jet alone (without Engine) may be the same, but when you start arming it with your choice of Engine, EW, Missiles (in number) etc. - it changes everything. Even choice of Helmets is different.

Deal includes...

Morocco: Communications equipment; Spares and repair parts; support equipment; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation; support and test equipment, simulators; integration and test; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistics and program support.

Bulgaria: Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program (ECISAP) support; Cartridge Actuated and Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD) support; Common Munitions Bit-test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE) support with Computer Test Set Adapter Group; communications equipment; software delivery and support; facilities and construction support; spares and repair/replace parts; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation; containers; munition support and test equipment; aircraft and munition integration and test support; studies and surveys; U.S. Government and contractor technical, engineering and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistics and program support.

@Haris Ali2140 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @mingle @airomerix @Knuckles @Path-Finder

 

[Path-Finder]

Took me a while, but I think this will give a clearer picture in the difference of price. The price of the jet alone (without Engine) may be the same, but when you start arming it with your choice of Engine, EW, Missiles (in number) etc. - it changes everything. Even choice of Helmets is different.

View attachment 620456​

Deal includes...

Morocco: Communications equipment; Spares and repair parts; support equipment; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation; support and test equipment, simulators; integration and test; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistics and program support.

Bulgaria: Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program (ECISAP) support; Cartridge Actuated and Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD) support; Common Munitions Bit-test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE) support with Computer Test Set Adapter Group; communications equipment; software delivery and support; facilities and construction support; spares and repair/replace parts; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation; containers; munition support and test equipment; aircraft and munition integration and test support; studies and surveys; U.S. Government and contractor technical, engineering and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistics and program support.

@Haris Ali2140 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @mingle @airomerix @Knuckles @Path-Finder

good god that is not cheap!

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

good god that is not cheap!

Yup...but here's the kicker. The F-16 Blk-70/72 and Gripen E/F are the lowest-cost Western options ($130-150 m per plane all-in), the Typhoon and Rafale will take you $250 m-plus per plane easy. We should keep that in mind when we ask, "wHy dOn'T pAf BuI nEw FiGhTeR!?!?"

 

[gangsta_rap]

"wHy dOn'T pAf BuI nEw FiGhTeR!?!?"

 

[Raider 21]

good god that is not cheap!

Quality stuff never really is

 

[Path-Finder]

Yup...but here's the kicker. The F-16 Blk-70/72 and Gripen E/F are the lowest-cost Western options ($130-150 m per plane all-in), the Typhoon and Rafale will take you $250 m-plus per plane easy. We should keep that in mind when we ask, "wHy dOn'T pAf BuI nEw FiGhTeR!?!?"

message for the quom is; unfortunately money doesn't grow on trees.

Quality stuff never really is

well there is always khiali pilau in the meantime.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

If the PAF opts for a LIFT, it will likely be the L-15B with Ukrainian AI-322F turbofan engines. It technically is the only design that meets the PAF's original ASR for a LIFT, i.e., afterburning engines with an air-intercept radar.

The others (e.g., M346 and L-159) might have the electronics, but not the actual engine the PAF was looking for. In 2019, the PAF CAS did say the LIFT 'doesn't need an afterburning engine,' but what I heard from an instructor pilot at IDEAS 2018, the actual need is for a LIFT with an afterburning engine. Otherwise, it doesn't add much to K-8.

But I don't think the LIFT category would add to the PAF fighter fleet. The most sensible solution for building out the fighter inventory is with the JF-17. Others, such as L-15B or even FA-50, are simply not cost-effective.

Sir,
It is true that all modern air forces are moving towards two types of training aircraft i.e Basic and advance fighter training. Unfortunately in PAF still the old system of have four types of training solutions apply.
How flight training is evolving now is basic and intermediate training aircraft have become one from where they move on to advance trainer aircraft.

If we compare PAF's existing flight training then we see basic trainer (mushaq / C-172) followed by T-37 Tweet followed by K-8. Then the fighter conversion starts Mirrage and the F7.
Other Air Forces start off with a PC-7 kind of an aircraft and move on to LIFT platform from where they directly move on to fighter conversion F-16 or in future F-35.
Theses days JF-17 simulator is helping train most of the pilots as they have improved over the years. If i remember correctly the B-707 simulator was fixed simulator and artificial movement was created but when B-777 simulator came it was 4 axis. These days 6 axis simulators are available and at fraction of the cost, infact some also have various other aircraft modules as long as the engines remain the same. i.e B-737-800 /A-320 / A220 can be done on the same simulator.

Engine has always been a problem area for PAF. TAI are trying to manufacture a new fighter aircraft that will be used for training also but they intend to use the same engine that powers the F-16's hence they will again be sanctioned. The cost of production of JF-17 can be reduced further if PAF increases the numbers.

 

[Raider 21]

Sir,
It is true that all modern air forces are moving towards two types of training aircraft i.e Basic and advance fighter training. Unfortunately in PAF still the old system of have four types of training solutions apply.
How flight training is evolving now is basic and intermediate training aircraft have become one from where they move on to advance trainer aircraft.

If we compare PAF's existing flight training then we see basic trainer (mushaq / C-172) followed by T-37 Tweet followed by K-8. Then the fighter conversion starts Mirrage and the F7.
Other Air Forces start off with a PC-7 kind of an aircraft and move on to LIFT platform from where they directly move on to fighter conversion F-16 or in future F-35.
Theses days JF-17 simulator is helping train most of the pilots as they have improved over the years. If i remember correctly the B-707 simulator was fixed simulator and artificial movement was created but when B-777 simulator came it was 4 axis. These days 6 axis simulators are available and at fraction of the cost, infact some also have various other aircraft modules as long as the engines remain the same. i.e B-737-800 /A-320 / A220 can be done on the same simulator.

Engine has always been a problem area for PAF. TAI are trying to manufacture a new fighter aircraft that will be used for training also but they intend to use the same engine that powers the F-16's hence they will again be sanctioned. The cost of production of JF-17 can be reduced further if PAF increases the numbers.

You can even switch the engine config for the simulators other than a few CB changes. That's how A320 CEO/NEO for example is done.

Thunder Sims are decent but could be way better. The Sim is more of a mission technical trainer to learn the systems of the aircraft and less of a feel of the aircraft's performance.

 

[Talon]

View attachment 620323

Not PAF viper,Photoshopped picture

I don't think this picture is authentic. There is something about it that is unsetting.

1) Pictures taken so up close are easily traceable. Hence they cannot be leaked. And those who know, PAF is VERY touchy about leaking F-16 pictures.
2) The squadron patch on the right shoulder is not of the correct size.
3) The shoulder rank is 'odd' and grainy.

Yep patch isnt of correct size and its actually a chest patch and not an arm one.

Clearly rank insignia is looking much larger than the patch which is totally opposite to the actual sizes.

You know @Knuckles , sometimes I have query 'bout stuff that i'm not aware of, but only deem fit to ask Questions from those whom I know will give a me an accurate and straight forward response like yourself, @airomerix , @Hodor , @Windjammer among others.

Hope you understand where this post is going.

@Knuckles is much reliable than most of the users here including me.

 

[Blacklight]

Took me a while, but I think this will give a clearer picture in the difference of price. The price of the jet alone (without Engine) may be the same, but when you start arming it with your choice of Engine, EW, Missiles (in number) etc. - it changes everything. Even choice of Helmets is different.

View attachment 620456​

Deal includes...

Morocco: Communications equipment; Spares and repair parts; support equipment; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation; support and test equipment, simulators; integration and test; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistics and program support.

Bulgaria: Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program (ECISAP) support; Cartridge Actuated and Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD) support; Common Munitions Bit-test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE) support with Computer Test Set Adapter Group; communications equipment; software delivery and support; facilities and construction support; spares and repair/replace parts; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation; containers; munition support and test equipment; aircraft and munition integration and test support; studies and surveys; U.S. Government and contractor technical, engineering and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistics and program support.

@Haris Ali2140 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @mingle @airomerix @Knuckles @Path-Finder

Lockheed Martin contracted to deliver F-16s to Bulgaria
02 April 2020

Lockheed Martin has been awarded USD512 million to deliver eight F-16V Block 70 Fighting Falcon combat aircraft to Bulgaria.

The Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contract, announced by the US Department of Defense (DoD) on 2 April, includes USD4.2 million of unspecified pre-priced options, and will run through to 31 January 2027.

The award, which is understood not to include engines, is part of a total F-16V procurement and support package for Bulgaria that will be valued at approximately USD1.3 billion. As the aircraft are listed as being Block 70 rather than Block 70/72, they will be single-seaters. As such, pilot training will likely take place on US Air Force or other NATO twin-seat aircraft.

With the first F-16V set to enter service in 2023, the Bulgarian Air Force (BuAF) will be in a position to retire its ageing MiG-29 ‘Fulcrum’ fighters, only about four of which are believed to still be serviceable.

 

[Trailer23]

Lockheed Martin contracted to deliver F-16s to Bulgaria
02 April 2020

Lockheed Martin has been awarded USD512 million to deliver eight F-16V Block 70 Fighting Falcon combat aircraft to Bulgaria.

The Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contract, announced by the US Department of Defense (DoD) on 2 April, includes USD4.2 million of unspecified pre-priced options, and will run through to 31 January 2027.

The award, which is understood not to include engines, is part of a total F-16V procurement and support package for Bulgaria that will be valued at approximately USD1.3 billion. As the aircraft are listed as being Block 70 rather than Block 70/72, they will be single-seaters. As such, pilot training will likely take place on US Air Force or other NATO twin-seat aircraft.

With the first F-16V set to enter service in 2023, the Bulgarian Air Force (BuAF) will be in a position to retire its ageing MiG-29 ‘Fulcrum’ fighters, only about four of which are believed to still be serviceable.

Right, so the amount and options I mentioned are the Official Figures and Numbers by the Defense Security Corporation Agency and were quoted last year in the Month of June.

Figures may vary as the Government of Bulgaria may have sought to change or alter the offer in some manner.

https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/bulgaria-f-16cd-block-7072-aircraft-support